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I don’t blame children for buying micro transactions. I blame companies for making them and designing them to be as addictive as possible. > suddenly those Fac

I don’t blame children for buying micro transactions. I blame companies for making them and designing them to be as addictive as possible. > suddenly those Facebook ads stopped working Maybe Ramon should go onto wiener dog forums, groups, subreddits, and advertise his product. List on Amazon, or partner with smaller, online pet businesses like Chewy. I guarantee these will have high conversion rates than vacuuming up search queries for “wiener dog,” cross referencing them with device identifiers, browser fingerprints, Facebook pixels, computer vision tagged photos, and IP addresses to build a psychological profile you sell to Ramon. It may be easier for Ramon to click “sell to people who have wiener dogs,” but why shouldn’t a business be in charge of their own marketing?

adventured 5y ago
> I don’t blame children for buying micro transactions. I blame companies for making them and designing them to be as addictive as possible. Your example falls flat immediately: the ad buyers are not children. They're adults and should be held to adult standards of awareness and responsibility. It makes zero sense that you used children and micro transactions as the example for why blame should or should not be allocated to ad buyers.
- FrenchDevRemote 5y ago
  adults are just children with jobs and debts
  - arbitrary_name 5y ago
    Ouch.
- uncomputation 5y ago
  > It makes zero sense that you used children and micro transactions I somewhat expect adults to understand gambling and in-game transactions and the fact that they are somewhat manipulative [0]. I hold no such expectations for children who generally accept whatever is presented to them. Blaming a child for buying a box of digital gems or what have you will do no good. Similarly, I don’t think blaming Ramon the wiener dog ramp salesman for advertising on FB is really going to challenge FB’s market dominance and iron grip of advertising. I don’t expect Ramon to understand issues of data privacy, internet surveillance, advertising monopolies, and walled gardens, or - if he does know about them from passing - I don’t think pressuring him to follow his conscience and resist the market size of FB will do any good. “Blaming” businesses who advertise on FB without providing some alternative in the market will not succeed. Rather than blame Ramon, we should restrict FB’s ability to surveil people whether through private (e.g. Apple) or public (e.g. regulation) means. This way, as FB’s effectiveness dwindles, the market will produce some solutions as alternatives for these businesses to go. Instead, pressuring and blaming FB for their handlings of these issues will prove far more effective. We’ve already seen some limited success with this strategy, landing FB in Congress multiple times and getting the Netherlands to reconsider their huge data center, not to mention issues of GDPR, the “right to be forgotten,” etc. I chose children because just as I don’t expect them to resist loot boxes, I don’t expect business owners to resist FB advertising. I listed alternatives that Ramon should do as a good businessman if FB is not an option, and options I believe will yield more direct results and a more loyal customer base. The world is not divided into clueless children and perfectly knowledgeable and ethical adults. But rather than blame the advertisers (Ramon), we should go after the ad market (FB). [0]: That said, I still think we should blame the companies who use dark patterns and casino strategies to trigger people’s tendencies to gamble or “roll the dice” after a couple hours playing a game. You could say “players” instead of children, but this isn’t really analogous to small businesses because I still expect some adult players to know when they’re being played. I don’t expect any small business to reject FB advertising if it is presented as a way to reach a huge customer base.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
>Maybe Ramon should go onto wiener dog forums, groups, subreddits, and advertise his product. List on Amazon, or partner with smaller, online pet businesses like Chewy So advertise, but just not on FB? >It may be easier for Ramon to click “sell to people who have wiener dogs,” but why shouldn’t a business be in charge of their own marketing? You answered your own question. Marketing is hard work, and FB makes it very easy to target a huge customer base. Conversion might be good on reddit, but you can do that in addition. Why is FB off limits?
- uncomputation 5y ago
  I didn’t say FB or advertising was off limits. I was responding to someone who was asking why we don’t blame businesses who advertise on FB and blame FB themselves, and then framing it (per my interpretation) as “when you take away FB’s ability to advertise ‘effectively,’ you hurt small businesses like Ramon the wiener dog ramp salesman.” My response is Ramon has plenty of other options besides FB if FB is regulated out of its ability to track, profile, and data mine the internet, and that these options support (a) other small businesses and (b) a more diverse internet ecosystem.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    >My response is Ramon has plenty of other options besides FB if FB is regulated out of its ability to track, profile, and data mine the internet That's a pretty bold claim though. There may be other options but that doesn't mean that they are enough to sustain his business. I think it's plausible that there's a vast swath of products that could not exist without Facebook. A lot of them are probably crap products that I wouldn't like but someone does. But then again oh, I don't have any problem with targeted advertising for products. I have a bigger problem with targeted political advertising and radicalizing engagement content.
    - williamtrask 5y ago
      The world existed just fine before online advertising. If a company and its competitors for a product disappeared as a result of not advertising it probably wasn’t that great if a product, certainly not essential
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ransom1538 5y ago
"Maybe Ramon should go onto wiener dog forums, groups, subreddits, and advertise his product." Wow. Have you tried this? Reddit mods will ban you in 5 seconds if it smells addy. Forums wtf? that is a niche niche thing these days. Even if you have good standing with a Twitter - that is close to a full time job building followers. FB makes a ton of money - cause this stuff is locked down.
- nindalf 5y ago
  It’s the “if they can’t have bread, why don’t they eat cake?” response to the small business owner needing ads. They’ve never tried to advertise a small business critical to their livelihood. If they had, they’d know. That’s why their response is tone deaf and unrealistic.
esyir 5y ago
Oh god no. Why the hell would I want less explicitly defined ads and more native ads on forums. One I can tune out, the other pollutes the entire conversation space.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  But at least they appear to you in a location where they're appropriate to the content offered. Ramon could make sponsorship deal with a local forum.
- smolder 5y ago
  On the flip side, being part of the conversation space makes their advertising refutable. On Facebook, I recall seeing an ad for a sticker you can put on your phone which supposedly blocks radiation to protect your brain. That is, in my not so humble opinion, a scam product which preys on and perpetuates a false fear. The first time I saw this ad, I recall commenting that it was a scam and people shouldn't waste their money, and reporting the ad. I saw it again recently on my monthly-or-so visit to FB, and the commenting was turned off, which is how most ads are delivered. On car forums I used to visit, it wasn't uncommon for people to push scammy products, but there were also respected members identifying them as BS.

adventured 5y ago

> I don’t blame children for buying micro transactions. I blame companies for making them and designing them to be as addictive as possible. Your example falls flat immediately: the ad buyers are not children. They're adults and should be held to adult standards of awareness and responsibility. It makes zero sense that you used children and micro transactions as the example for why blame should or should not be allocated to ad buyers.

FrenchDevRemote 5y ago
adults are just children with jobs and debts
- arbitrary_name 5y ago
  Ouch.
uncomputation 5y ago
> It makes zero sense that you used children and micro transactions I somewhat expect adults to understand gambling and in-game transactions and the fact that they are somewhat manipulative [0]. I hold no such expectations for children who generally accept whatever is presented to them. Blaming a child for buying a box of digital gems or what have you will do no good. Similarly, I don’t think blaming Ramon the wiener dog ramp salesman for advertising on FB is really going to challenge FB’s market dominance and iron grip of advertising. I don’t expect Ramon to understand issues of data privacy, internet surveillance, advertising monopolies, and walled gardens, or - if he does know about them from passing - I don’t think pressuring him to follow his conscience and resist the market size of FB will do any good. “Blaming” businesses who advertise on FB without providing some alternative in the market will not succeed. Rather than blame Ramon, we should restrict FB’s ability to surveil people whether through private (e.g. Apple) or public (e.g. regulation) means. This way, as FB’s effectiveness dwindles, the market will produce some solutions as alternatives for these businesses to go. Instead, pressuring and blaming FB for their handlings of these issues will prove far more effective. We’ve already seen some limited success with this strategy, landing FB in Congress multiple times and getting the Netherlands to reconsider their huge data center, not to mention issues of GDPR, the “right to be forgotten,” etc. I chose children because just as I don’t expect them to resist loot boxes, I don’t expect business owners to resist FB advertising. I listed alternatives that Ramon should do as a good businessman if FB is not an option, and options I believe will yield more direct results and a more loyal customer base. The world is not divided into clueless children and perfectly knowledgeable and ethical adults. But rather than blame the advertisers (Ramon), we should go after the ad market (FB). [0]: That said, I still think we should blame the companies who use dark patterns and casino strategies to trigger people’s tendencies to gamble or “roll the dice” after a couple hours playing a game. You could say “players” instead of children, but this isn’t really analogous to small businesses because I still expect some adult players to know when they’re being played. I don’t expect any small business to reject FB advertising if it is presented as a way to reach a huge customer base.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

>Maybe Ramon should go onto wiener dog forums, groups, subreddits, and advertise his product. List on Amazon, or partner with smaller, online pet businesses like Chewy So advertise, but just not on FB? >It may be easier for Ramon to click “sell to people who have wiener dogs,” but why shouldn’t a business be in charge of their own marketing? You answered your own question. Marketing is hard work, and FB makes it very easy to target a huge customer base. Conversion might be good on reddit, but you can do that in addition. Why is FB off limits?

uncomputation 5y ago
I didn’t say FB or advertising was off limits. I was responding to someone who was asking why we don’t blame businesses who advertise on FB and blame FB themselves, and then framing it (per my interpretation) as “when you take away FB’s ability to advertise ‘effectively,’ you hurt small businesses like Ramon the wiener dog ramp salesman.” My response is Ramon has plenty of other options besides FB if FB is regulated out of its ability to track, profile, and data mine the internet, and that these options support (a) other small businesses and (b) a more diverse internet ecosystem.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  >My response is Ramon has plenty of other options besides FB if FB is regulated out of its ability to track, profile, and data mine the internet That's a pretty bold claim though. There may be other options but that doesn't mean that they are enough to sustain his business. I think it's plausible that there's a vast swath of products that could not exist without Facebook. A lot of them are probably crap products that I wouldn't like but someone does. But then again oh, I don't have any problem with targeted advertising for products. I have a bigger problem with targeted political advertising and radicalizing engagement content.
  - williamtrask 5y ago
    The world existed just fine before online advertising. If a company and its competitors for a product disappeared as a result of not advertising it probably wasn’t that great if a product, certainly not essential

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ransom1538 5y ago

"Maybe Ramon should go onto wiener dog forums, groups, subreddits, and advertise his product." Wow. Have you tried this? Reddit mods will ban you in 5 seconds if it smells addy. Forums wtf? that is a niche niche thing these days. Even if you have good standing with a Twitter - that is close to a full time job building followers. FB makes a ton of money - cause this stuff is locked down.

nindalf 5y ago
It’s the “if they can’t have bread, why don’t they eat cake?” response to the small business owner needing ads. They’ve never tried to advertise a small business critical to their livelihood. If they had, they’d know. That’s why their response is tone deaf and unrealistic.

esyir 5y ago

Oh god no. Why the hell would I want less explicitly defined ads and more native ads on forums. One I can tune out, the other pollutes the entire conversation space.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
But at least they appear to you in a location where they're appropriate to the content offered. Ramon could make sponsorship deal with a local forum.
smolder 5y ago
On the flip side, being part of the conversation space makes their advertising refutable. On Facebook, I recall seeing an ad for a sticker you can put on your phone which supposedly blocks radiation to protect your brain. That is, in my not so humble opinion, a scam product which preys on and perpetuates a false fear. The first time I saw this ad, I recall commenting that it was a scam and people shouldn't waste their money, and reporting the ad. I saw it again recently on my monthly-or-so visit to FB, and the commenting was turned off, which is how most ads are delivered. On car forums I used to visit, it wasn't uncommon for people to push scammy products, but there were also respected members identifying them as BS.