6 ms·

Serious question, for those with more experience than me “in the game” running big successful companies: are dirty tactics like this (and worse) par for the cou

Serious question, for those with more experience than me “in the game” running big successful companies: are dirty tactics like this (and worse) par for the course and generally expected, and it’s sort of understood that the outsiders/general public are shielded from it? Or is it actually shocking? It often seems like there’s two “worlds” operating at the same time. In one, there’s outrage and indignation at this sort of thing. In the other, that public outrage is just another item in the chess game, to be weaponised against your competitors as appropriate. But maybe that’s too pessimistic of a view, and not all industries are like this? I’m genuinely curious.

lupire 5y ago
Yes. In a competitive environment with no law/enforcement, anyone who doesn't cheat loses to someone who does. This is the state of nature, law of the jungle.
- specialist 5y ago
  The game is broken when honest players have to cheat to be competitive.
alphabetting 5y ago
This is par for the course. Done by majority of big corps and nothing wrong with it imo. Stating TikTok is a danger isn't a stretch. The hyperventilating in this piece is hyped up by republican and FB angles but almost every big company is doing comms like this.
- _3u10 5y ago
  Some have even bought the entire newspaper to make sure it stays on message.
fairity 5y ago
On average, these sorts of undermining tactics are uncommon because most companies have limited resources that are better spent on improving their own product or service. That said, for the subset of companies that operate in fiercely competitive markets with well-funded players, this sort of activity is common. In my prior company, where 2 competitors & us had raised 9 figures in venture capital, we found multiple instances of such undermining attacks going on from 1 of the competitors. Although we never engaged in such activities, it was clear to me that we were at a slight disadvantage due to our lack of willingness. Imo, such activities require sociopathic leadership, and unfortunately, that sort of personality is overrepresented in the c-suite.
akyu 5y ago
This kind of thing is entirely normal.
kache_ 5y ago
I prefer the moral clarity of playing "dirty" (but legally) compared to pretending to be nice but doing shady shit like conspiring to depress SWE salaries in emails with strict retention policies
gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
Ya the startup I work at did some crazy shit in the founder days or so I’ve heard from the seniors. Competitive intelligence they called it. We have had malicious litigation too and now I’m ramping up on security (cybersecurity or corposec as I call it, not network) because knowing our competitors I think it’s not a case of if there is a hostile op against us, but when.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> are dirty tactics like this (and worse) par for the course The details make all the difference. Apple goes on stage and posts misleading graphs about their competition multiple times per year. The latest event showed the M1 Ultra matching an RTX 3090 in performance, yet that’s nowhere close to true in anyone’s testing and the graph was deliberately misleading in dishonest ways (3090 curve was truncated before it reached peak performance). The difference is that most people here really like Apple hardware, so they get a free pass. Most people here really dislike Facebook, so this seems like a mortal sin for a company to promote negative misleading ideas about their competitor. Everyone markets against their competitors to some degree, even if it’s just a comparison chart on a marketing page somewhere. I’d need to see more evidence that Facebook was deliberately lying to really be concerned about this. It seems the authors are relying heavily on anti-Facebook anger to fuel this story.
- tyrfing 5y ago
  The one difference is that most of big tech these days doesn't actually have any competition, and will collude in ways like wage fixing in any areas they do. As such, it's not too surprising to see they don't care about competitors - they don't have any.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  Apple lies themselves. They don't pay the news to lie for them, though they do sanction reporters who report inconvenient truths. Facebook has a history of paying for smear campaigns. https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/facebook-roped-in-pr-firm-in-smear-campaign-against-rivals-report-118111501444_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/facebook... https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-13374048 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-13374048 https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/01/update-facebooks-smear-campaign-against-critics https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/01/update-facebooks-smear...
- lozenge 5y ago
  When Apple lies about performance on a stage... It's clearly from Apple and people treat it accordingly. Nobody relied on that information or even believed it. When Facebook pays a marketing agency to get anti tiktok headlines into local news, the reader has no idea who was involved and is left with negative impressions of tiktok that stay with them long after they forgot the details of the story (if they even read that far).
taylodl 5y ago
Many commenters here have pointed out this is the norm. I'll also point out that most companies fail, and many of the ones that don't fail are despised by their customers/users. What can we say of the companies that succeed and aren't despised? They typically don't do shit like this. The other problem with thinking "this is what everybody does" is there's the unstated "so keep your mouth shut and just go along with it" that's really unhealthy for us all. If you work for Facebook and you think this is the norm then you're not going to be inclined to question this behavior and if you really think it's universal then you may not even be inclined to leave. Thus the problem perpetuates itself. If you ever find yourself working for one of this hell hole companies then leave. Don't buy into the false narrative that this is normal, it's the same everywhere, keep your mouth shut and don't rock the boat. You'll come to realize the money doesn't make up for what's been done to your mental health and the quality of your life.
- alphabetting 5y ago
  What is "unhealthy" about telling public TikTok is a danger?
  - thinkyfish 5y ago
    Facebook has no motivation to make true accusations against TikTok. There may be legitimate criticisms that can be made, but facebook doesn't have a reason to care, and being tasked with making those criticisms in an environment where anything that sticks is rewarded, regardless of the truth, will have their honesty and truthfulness compromised, and will be encouraged to view that as normal, compromising their wisdom.
  - kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
    If Facebook wants to say that, they should say it themselves, not hide behind a fake grassroots campaign. That is “unhealthy.”
    - prewett 5y ago
      "Inauthentic", even
raiyu 5y ago
This is definitely not the norm for many large companies and really shows the emotional context of the leadership. If they feel attacked, or threatened, often they will resort to the same behavior in reverse. Similarly, this seems to affect consumer companies a bit more often than B2B companies, but that isn't to say that they are immune. Certainly not surprising to hear this about Facebook given it's history.
_3u10 5y ago
Given that the paper in question is owned by Bezos…
f38zf5vdt 5y ago
There are some optimists here. - Pharmaceutical companies trash generics and lobby both directly to doctors and governments - The sugar and food industry has had a significant role in informing consumers that their obesity was their fault and not the fault of their products - The oil industry has had a significant role in informing consumers that climate change was their fault and not the fault of their products - Fruit/vegetable companies I don't even want to get into (look up Chiquita/United Fruit Company) - Anything to do with any major retailer/distributor and unions They aren't "dirty" tactics so much as "profit maximizing tactics" and they are inherent to capitalist mega-corps.

lupire 5y ago

Yes. In a competitive environment with no law/enforcement, anyone who doesn't cheat loses to someone who does. This is the state of nature, law of the jungle.

specialist 5y ago
The game is broken when honest players have to cheat to be competitive.

alphabetting 5y ago

This is par for the course. Done by majority of big corps and nothing wrong with it imo. Stating TikTok is a danger isn't a stretch. The hyperventilating in this piece is hyped up by republican and FB angles but almost every big company is doing comms like this.

_3u10 5y ago
Some have even bought the entire newspaper to make sure it stays on message.

fairity 5y ago

On average, these sorts of undermining tactics are uncommon because most companies have limited resources that are better spent on improving their own product or service. That said, for the subset of companies that operate in fiercely competitive markets with well-funded players, this sort of activity is common. In my prior company, where 2 competitors & us had raised 9 figures in venture capital, we found multiple instances of such undermining attacks going on from 1 of the competitors. Although we never engaged in such activities, it was clear to me that we were at a slight disadvantage due to our lack of willingness. Imo, such activities require sociopathic leadership, and unfortunately, that sort of personality is overrepresented in the c-suite.

akyu 5y ago

This kind of thing is entirely normal.

kache_ 5y ago

I prefer the moral clarity of playing "dirty" (but legally) compared to pretending to be nice but doing shady shit like conspiring to depress SWE salaries in emails with strict retention policies

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago

Ya the startup I work at did some crazy shit in the founder days or so I’ve heard from the seniors. Competitive intelligence they called it. We have had malicious litigation too and now I’m ramping up on security (cybersecurity or corposec as I call it, not network) because knowing our competitors I think it’s not a case of if there is a hostile op against us, but when.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> are dirty tactics like this (and worse) par for the course The details make all the difference. Apple goes on stage and posts misleading graphs about their competition multiple times per year. The latest event showed the M1 Ultra matching an RTX 3090 in performance, yet that’s nowhere close to true in anyone’s testing and the graph was deliberately misleading in dishonest ways (3090 curve was truncated before it reached peak performance). The difference is that most people here really like Apple hardware, so they get a free pass. Most people here really dislike Facebook, so this seems like a mortal sin for a company to promote negative misleading ideas about their competitor. Everyone markets against their competitors to some degree, even if it’s just a comparison chart on a marketing page somewhere. I’d need to see more evidence that Facebook was deliberately lying to really be concerned about this. It seems the authors are relying heavily on anti-Facebook anger to fuel this story.

tyrfing 5y ago
The one difference is that most of big tech these days doesn't actually have any competition, and will collude in ways like wage fixing in any areas they do. As such, it's not too surprising to see they don't care about competitors - they don't have any.
lern_too_spel 5y ago
Apple lies themselves. They don't pay the news to lie for them, though they do sanction reporters who report inconvenient truths. Facebook has a history of paying for smear campaigns. https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/facebook-roped-in-pr-firm-in-smear-campaign-against-rivals-report-118111501444_1.html https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/facebook... https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-13374048 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-13374048 https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/01/update-facebooks-smear-campaign-against-critics https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/01/update-facebooks-smear...
lozenge 5y ago
When Apple lies about performance on a stage... It's clearly from Apple and people treat it accordingly. Nobody relied on that information or even believed it. When Facebook pays a marketing agency to get anti tiktok headlines into local news, the reader has no idea who was involved and is left with negative impressions of tiktok that stay with them long after they forgot the details of the story (if they even read that far).

taylodl 5y ago

Many commenters here have pointed out this is the norm. I'll also point out that most companies fail, and many of the ones that don't fail are despised by their customers/users. What can we say of the companies that succeed and aren't despised? They typically don't do shit like this. The other problem with thinking "this is what everybody does" is there's the unstated "so keep your mouth shut and just go along with it" that's really unhealthy for us all. If you work for Facebook and you think this is the norm then you're not going to be inclined to question this behavior and if you really think it's universal then you may not even be inclined to leave. Thus the problem perpetuates itself. If you ever find yourself working for one of this hell hole companies then leave. Don't buy into the false narrative that this is normal, it's the same everywhere, keep your mouth shut and don't rock the boat. You'll come to realize the money doesn't make up for what's been done to your mental health and the quality of your life.

alphabetting 5y ago
What is "unhealthy" about telling public TikTok is a danger?
- thinkyfish 5y ago
  Facebook has no motivation to make true accusations against TikTok. There may be legitimate criticisms that can be made, but facebook doesn't have a reason to care, and being tasked with making those criticisms in an environment where anything that sticks is rewarded, regardless of the truth, will have their honesty and truthfulness compromised, and will be encouraged to view that as normal, compromising their wisdom.
- kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
  If Facebook wants to say that, they should say it themselves, not hide behind a fake grassroots campaign. That is “unhealthy.”
  - prewett 5y ago
    "Inauthentic", even

raiyu 5y ago

This is definitely not the norm for many large companies and really shows the emotional context of the leadership. If they feel attacked, or threatened, often they will resort to the same behavior in reverse. Similarly, this seems to affect consumer companies a bit more often than B2B companies, but that isn't to say that they are immune. Certainly not surprising to hear this about Facebook given it's history.

_3u10 5y ago

Given that the paper in question is owned by Bezos…

f38zf5vdt 5y ago

There are some optimists here. - Pharmaceutical companies trash generics and lobby both directly to doctors and governments - The sugar and food industry has had a significant role in informing consumers that their obesity was their fault and not the fault of their products - The oil industry has had a significant role in informing consumers that climate change was their fault and not the fault of their products - Fruit/vegetable companies I don't even want to get into (look up Chiquita/United Fruit Company) - Anything to do with any major retailer/distributor and unions They aren't "dirty" tactics so much as "profit maximizing tactics" and they are inherent to capitalist mega-corps.