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> Around 10 million people, or one in five adults, would struggle to manage in a society without cash, a report from the Royal Society of Arts commissioned by c

by vertis 5y ago

> Around 10 million people, or one in five adults, would struggle to manage in a society without cash, a report from the Royal Society of Arts commissioned by cash machine network Link found. At least they didn't bury who was paying for the study. Going completely cashless is troubling for many reasons. I almost never have cash that I can give to beggers and buskers now (the later sometimes have little tap to pay machines). Given that there are plenty of people that are unbanked, it's going to be problematic to be 100%. These are not insurmountable problems, but you have to bake in solutions. Rights to have accounts even if you don't have a fixed address (etc).

yur3i__ 5y ago
> the later sometimes have little tap to pay machines Its interesting how these have started to crop up more and more recently as cash has declined, for instance my local Gurdwara (Sikh temple) which traditionally takes donations in cash has a little card machine you tap on as you go in. I wonder if when we get to a point where homeless people get them too, if people will trust them enough to do carded donations.
- nivenkos 5y ago
  In Sweden they sometimes do it with a phone, as you can Swish to pay directly to phone numbers. I'm not sure how they register with a bank and their ID though, maybe it's not theirs or they share it. Nevertheless, they really shouldn't exist. There should be enough housing and emergency provision to help people in emergencies, and they need to crack down hard on the foreigners that come and use it as a way of sending money back - e.g. https://metro.co.uk/2017/02/20/gang-of-beggars-pictured-getting-out-of-romanian-registered-car-in-cambridge-6459992/ https://metro.co.uk/2017/02/20/gang-of-beggars-pictured-gett...
omegaanon 5y ago
If you go into London now, so many homeless people have those card readers as people are just using their cards or mobile pay. Definitely see the change after the pandemic where they advertised cash in supermarkets to be the spreader of the virus.
- ojosilva 5y ago
  In Brazil, with a huge informal economy, you can now find all sorts of small street vendors with a card reader. Also the government has successfully rolled out Pix less than 2yrs ago, with now 50% of the population as registered users. Pix is the smartphone payment protocol which has basically nuked cash transactions countrywide, or at least where mobile networks work. So, at least in Brazil, card readers are already on the way out for informal workers, and even some SMBs, and Pix with its QR codes and phone numbers are in.
  - Vivtek 5y ago
    This process has started in Puerto Rico, too. People still mostly use cash, but almost every vendor these days has ATH-Movil, a phone-based payment system through your bank.
- aufhebung 5y ago
  I've heard the same with China and WeChat Pay even pre pandemic. This is just from second hand anecdotes though so take it with a grain of salt.
  - _hao 5y ago
    Can confirm. Beggars and small street paddlers in China all just have their WeChat Pay QR code printed and laminated or you can scan their phone. Hell, summer of 2018 when I was in Hong Kong there was an American tourist(? granted, he did look like one) that was begging with his QR code printed so he could "fly back home".
nivenkos 5y ago
- vertis 5y ago
  Citation needed. Having worked with various homeless charities over the years this comment is not just wrong, it's insultingly wrong. Homelessness is a real problem[0] with various manifestations. The whole welfare cheat problem is statistically insignificant[1] compared to real problems that cause homelessness like domestic violence. This attitude that they're faking it and sending money to Romania is just not helpful. Note: I apologize for the Australian links but most of my experience comes from Australia [0]: https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/homelessness-and-homelessness-services https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/homelessn... [1]: https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi421 https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi421
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Why do you think experience of Romanian immigrants in Australia would be relevant to the experience of people with Romanian beggars in the UK? The UK for years was a part of the EU and thus allowed unlimited, no-questions-asked immigration from Romania: the literal opposite of immigration policy in Australia.
    - vertis 5y ago
      I said nothing about Romanian immigrants, rather that homelessness was a real problem. The parent comment was choosing to suggest that all beggars were fake and that you "shouldn't encourage them". They were using a rather poor metro.co.uk article as the only justification for that statement. Homelessness is a real problem everywhere. That most of my experience comes from Australia does not make it less relevant. I've spent enough time in the UK to know if anything Australia is better about homelessness. My citations spoke to the percentage of people that were abusing the welfare system. Something closely related to the perception that people are bad actors. It happens but it's a tiny percentage. If you have a study about the number of Romanian gangs that are begging, then by all means share.
Apofis 5y ago
I really wish more would have a scannable QR code for Venmo/Paypal. More outreach needs to be done in this regard to educate. Both issue debit cards.
PeterisP 5y ago
I'm not sure how/if Brexit has changed that in UK, but in EU there is indeed a legal right to have a basic bank account for everyone - a bank can't refuse opening a basic bank account just because they're e.g. homeless or a convict or whatever - and there has been a push for quite some time to reduce the number of "unbanked" people. From what I see locally, the very very poor people such as permanently unemployed rural alcoholics "living off the land" all do have bank accounts as that's the way they're getting state support payments.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  The same thing still exists in the UK, the banks have to offer a basic account to anybody.
  - jlokier 5y ago
    It's actually the opposite in the UK. Banks are required to deny bank accounts to people who are disqualified from banking, and also deny them from being added as signatories on shared accounts. This is why cashless in the UK would be more harmful than in countries where everyone is allowed banking as a right. In the UK, access to banking is a government-controlled privilege, even though most people take it for granted and think that everyone can have it. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/home-office-immigration-checks-bank-accounts-mps-campaign-groups-urge-stop-caroline-lucas-david-lammy-a8118251.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/home-office-...
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      Similar checks are already normal in the EU; national identity card systems, a population registry etc already prevent non-residents from opening bank accounts. Just search "open bank account Germany" or similar, and you'll see you need proof of residence. The checks tend to be done once by the government, rather than 10 times by 10 private businesses.
      - PeterisP 5y ago

by vertis 5y ago

yur3i__ 5y ago

> the later sometimes have little tap to pay machines Its interesting how these have started to crop up more and more recently as cash has declined, for instance my local Gurdwara (Sikh temple) which traditionally takes donations in cash has a little card machine you tap on as you go in. I wonder if when we get to a point where homeless people get them too, if people will trust them enough to do carded donations.

nivenkos 5y ago
In Sweden they sometimes do it with a phone, as you can Swish to pay directly to phone numbers. I'm not sure how they register with a bank and their ID though, maybe it's not theirs or they share it. Nevertheless, they really shouldn't exist. There should be enough housing and emergency provision to help people in emergencies, and they need to crack down hard on the foreigners that come and use it as a way of sending money back - e.g. https://metro.co.uk/2017/02/20/gang-of-beggars-pictured-getting-out-of-romanian-registered-car-in-cambridge-6459992/ https://metro.co.uk/2017/02/20/gang-of-beggars-pictured-gett...

omegaanon 5y ago

If you go into London now, so many homeless people have those card readers as people are just using their cards or mobile pay. Definitely see the change after the pandemic where they advertised cash in supermarkets to be the spreader of the virus.

ojosilva 5y ago
In Brazil, with a huge informal economy, you can now find all sorts of small street vendors with a card reader. Also the government has successfully rolled out Pix less than 2yrs ago, with now 50% of the population as registered users. Pix is the smartphone payment protocol which has basically nuked cash transactions countrywide, or at least where mobile networks work. So, at least in Brazil, card readers are already on the way out for informal workers, and even some SMBs, and Pix with its QR codes and phone numbers are in.
- Vivtek 5y ago
  This process has started in Puerto Rico, too. People still mostly use cash, but almost every vendor these days has ATH-Movil, a phone-based payment system through your bank.
aufhebung 5y ago
I've heard the same with China and WeChat Pay even pre pandemic. This is just from second hand anecdotes though so take it with a grain of salt.
- _hao 5y ago
  Can confirm. Beggars and small street paddlers in China all just have their WeChat Pay QR code printed and laminated or you can scan their phone. Hell, summer of 2018 when I was in Hong Kong there was an American tourist(? granted, he did look like one) that was begging with his QR code printed so he could "fly back home".

nivenkos 5y ago

vertis 5y ago
Citation needed. Having worked with various homeless charities over the years this comment is not just wrong, it's insultingly wrong. Homelessness is a real problem[0] with various manifestations. The whole welfare cheat problem is statistically insignificant[1] compared to real problems that cause homelessness like domestic violence. This attitude that they're faking it and sending money to Romania is just not helpful. Note: I apologize for the Australian links but most of my experience comes from Australia [0]: https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/homelessness-and-homelessness-services https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/australias-welfare/homelessn... [1]: https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi421 https://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi421
- native_samples 5y ago
  Why do you think experience of Romanian immigrants in Australia would be relevant to the experience of people with Romanian beggars in the UK? The UK for years was a part of the EU and thus allowed unlimited, no-questions-asked immigration from Romania: the literal opposite of immigration policy in Australia.
  - vertis 5y ago
    I said nothing about Romanian immigrants, rather that homelessness was a real problem. The parent comment was choosing to suggest that all beggars were fake and that you "shouldn't encourage them". They were using a rather poor metro.co.uk article as the only justification for that statement. Homelessness is a real problem everywhere. That most of my experience comes from Australia does not make it less relevant. I've spent enough time in the UK to know if anything Australia is better about homelessness. My citations spoke to the percentage of people that were abusing the welfare system. Something closely related to the perception that people are bad actors. It happens but it's a tiny percentage. If you have a study about the number of Romanian gangs that are begging, then by all means share.

Apofis 5y ago

I really wish more would have a scannable QR code for Venmo/Paypal. More outreach needs to be done in this regard to educate. Both issue debit cards.

PeterisP 5y ago

I'm not sure how/if Brexit has changed that in UK, but in EU there is indeed a legal right to have a basic bank account for everyone - a bank can't refuse opening a basic bank account just because they're e.g. homeless or a convict or whatever - and there has been a push for quite some time to reduce the number of "unbanked" people. From what I see locally, the very very poor people such as permanently unemployed rural alcoholics "living off the land" all do have bank accounts as that's the way they're getting state support payments.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
The same thing still exists in the UK, the banks have to offer a basic account to anybody.
- jlokier 5y ago
  It's actually the opposite in the UK. Banks are required to deny bank accounts to people who are disqualified from banking, and also deny them from being added as signatories on shared accounts. This is why cashless in the UK would be more harmful than in countries where everyone is allowed banking as a right. In the UK, access to banking is a government-controlled privilege, even though most people take it for granted and think that everyone can have it. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/home-office-immigration-checks-bank-accounts-mps-campaign-groups-urge-stop-caroline-lucas-david-lammy-a8118251.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/home-office-...
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    Similar checks are already normal in the EU; national identity card systems, a population registry etc already prevent non-residents from opening bank accounts. Just search "open bank account Germany" or similar, and you'll see you need proof of residence. The checks tend to be done once by the government, rather than 10 times by 10 private businesses.
    - PeterisP 5y ago