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After this whole debacle in Canada [1] where two therapists were doing some downright freaky cuddle puddle from hell with a blindfold on a traumatized person, I

After this whole debacle in Canada [1] where two therapists were doing some downright freaky cuddle puddle from hell with a blindfold on a traumatized person, I am more curious about what they're doing to screen the therapists. These people hardly met the guidelines that MAPS set for therapy, and as described quite ridiculously violated people's well being instead. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-mdma-therapy-videos-1.6400256 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-mdma-ther...

s5300 5y ago
Thanks for linking this. That is… really fucked up. Predators in the healthcare industry need to face serious punishment. Unfortunately, they largely don’t and get away with things.
- adflux 5y ago
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "The clips culminate with Buisson struggling and wailing as Yensen uses his entire body to pin her to the bed and Dryer holds a towel in her mouth." That is not enjoyment, not consensual, and not ethical.
  - scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
    “Enjoying it” isn’t a therapeutic effect in itself.
  - s5300 5y ago
    I hate to post a comment like this on HN, but since I can’t downvote… Did you… actually read the article? Like, at all?
    - eyelidlessness 5y ago
      Sometimes this is the right comment to post, here or anywhere.
    - JetAlone 5y ago
      Sometimes someone needs to say it. Someone else seconded it, and I'll happily third. Let's get druggie rapists the hell out of our medical systems.
pmoriarty 5y ago
From MAPS's comments on the Yensen/Dryer case: "Updated announcement March 25, 2022 This a public announcement of additional information obtained regarding the conduct of former sub-investigators for a MAPS-sponsored clinical trial, initially publicly reported in 2019. We make this information public as part of our commitment to creating a culture of safety in psychedelic therapy and in alignment with our core value of transparency. The initial ethics complaint was reported to MAPS in 2018 by the participant. The complaint specifically identified the unethical conduct as occurring after the active treatment sessions had concluded in 2015. Yensen and former sub-investigator Donna Dryer verbally confirmed that Yensen engaged in a sexual relationship with the participant. Sexual contact between therapy providers and participants is unethical conduct of sexual abuse in violation of Section 6 of MAPS Code of Ethics for Psychedelic Psychotherapy and generally accepted standards of care. In 2018, as a result of the ethical misconduct, Yensen and Dryer were barred from all MAPS-related activities and from becoming providers of MAPS-affiliated MDMA-assisted therapy if the treatment is approved. On Saturday, November 6, 2021, MAPS staff were interviewed by a reporter who had viewed videos of clinical trial therapy sessions for the participant described in the original announcement below. Session video is made available to participants in MDMA-assisted therapy clinical trials for private review upon request. The reporter characterized former sub-investigator Richard Yensen’s behavior in at least one therapy session as “disturbing.” This characterization triggered a compliance review which was initiated Monday, November 8, 2021. The reopened review of conduct during the trial period includes a review of previous documentation, all available videos of sessions from the sub-investigators, and information reported in media accounts of the participant’s experience. Though the review is ongoing, MAPS has provisionally determined that Yensen and Dryer substantially deviated from the MDMA-assisted Therapy Treatment Manual on several occasions during the treatment period. MAPS has notified the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), Health Canada, Ethics Committees, and relevant authorities that the review has been re-opened. We will continue to keep regulatory agencies, ethics committees, and relevant authorities apprised of any developments on this case. Changes to MAPS policies, practices, or materials made as the direct result of the review will be reported publicly at maps.org/safety."[1] Also see MAPS's article on the Cover Story podcast regarding this issue here: [2] It contains a pretty informative FAQ in which MAPS addresses what it sees as misunderstandings in the media coverage of these events. [1] - https://maps.org/2019/05/24/statement-public-announcement-of-ethical-violation-by-former-maps-sponsored-investigators/ https://maps.org/2019/05/24/statement-public-announcement-of... [2] - https://maps.org/2022/03/01/participant-experiences-cover-story/ https://maps.org/2022/03/01/participant-experiences-cover-st...
renewiltord 5y ago
Huh, that’s pretty much rape, no? He (not depicted in video but described in text) had sexual intercourse with the person in his care while the patient was on MDMA. Homie that is not kosher at all. That is sexual assault. I am a huge fan of these drugs but this part of the world’s shame and puritan culture really shows this unexpected effect: it is not sufficient for something to be pleasant. It also has to be “medically necessary”. The outcome is we get a bunch of things showing that these things are medically necessary. “There is some evidence that X helps Y”. Dude, with the current standard of science I can do that for arbitrary X and Y. And you know what, the truth is that people heal and recover in all sorts of ways. But that’s not enough for us. We need to place everyone under the control of these gatekeepers. And then we find ourselves horrified at the outcome of the machine we have built where the power hungry abuse their power.
- awb 5y ago
  > He (not depicted in video but described in text) had sexual intercourse with the person in his care while the patient was on MDMA. It sounds like there was “intimate contact” during the session (maybe the spooning?) but the sex was not during the session. Still massively not OK. > Yensen has admitted to having sex with Buisson after the experimental sessions ended but while she was still enrolled in the clinical trial. In a 2018 lawsuit that has since been settled out of court, she alleged it was sexual assault, while Yensen claimed in his response that Buisson manipulated him and initiated the encounter.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Thanks for that correction. Still totally horrible but not as bad as what I said it was.
JetAlone 5y ago
Drug 'em up, mask 'em up, make 'em face their darkest fears. That's the enduring pattern of a lot of "coming of age" initiation rituals across many different cultures. I'm not shocked to see this is the approach an unaccredited drum-beatin' hippie looking couple in beautiful British Columbia tried to carry out.
- SpodGaju 5y ago
  To say that people with mood disorders are “not facing the darkest fears” is about as primitive and frankly stupid as it gets.
  - jonsen 5y ago
    I guess you could benefit from consulting a dictionary on 'to face'.
    - SpodGaju 5y ago
      "confront and deal with or accept a difficult or unpleasant task, fact, or situation." ? Still feel the same. Have something more insightful to add?
      - arapacana 5y ago
        People with trauma and mood disorders are by definition in constant contact with what is bogging them down.
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        Truth! Telling people like me to "face their demons" when they pushed me into homelessness but the demons still live with me in my van. I am not saying this to be mean, but people who have encourage these approaches do not have a mood disorder. They are sad people with sad lives.
sva_ 5y ago
That's... Disturbing. I'm surprised I didn't hear about this before. Honestly, fuck those people.
- tomatowurst 5y ago
  me too i was going to sign up for this but now im really afraid now. damn i was really looking forward to MDMA therapy to deal with PTSD stuff there needs to be harsh consequences and strong regulation. make sure people are going to trained and licensed practioners who will agree to recorded footage.
  - jamal-kumar 5y ago
    Consider doing the drug solo or at a party with trusted friends first and then trying integration therapy. The truth is most professional (ideally accredited, so shit like this doesn't happen) facilitators aren't going to give you the stuff themselves because they aren't licensed to. I think that's about to radically change in Canada without a lot of radical change in who gets to be a therapist or counsellor and that's pretty troubling, but so are a lot of really weird oversights in that country
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "i was going to sign up for this but now im really afraid now" If you were seriously considering signing up for the study, I encourage you to contact the investigators who are running the study and/or MAPS and voice your concerns. Not only would it help them understand what concerns prospective study participants have, but they may be able to answer your concerns to your satisfaction.
emteycz 5y ago
> For that to happen in this environment, under far more scrutiny than the substance will ever again be under, is extremely troubling What? A therapist molested a drugged person and they blame the drug? Wtf?
- jamal-kumar 5y ago
  The biggest thing to me is the total lack of accreditation necessary in order to become a 'therapist' or 'counsellor' in the province this happened in therapist... the rapist... what's the fucking difference it's BC haha
- SpodGaju 5y ago
  Yeah, it scares me that they are more protective of the drug than they are of the person who was raped. Sounds like some sort of weird MDMA cult.
refurb 5y ago
Fascinating how the 2020's is turning into a rerun of the 1960's-1970's: riots, rising oil prices, supply shocks, rising inflation and now the same "wild west" mentality about psychedelics that killed all legitimate research back then.
- virtualritz 5y ago
  What killed legitimate research was the FUD-informed Schedule 1 classification (or similar, outside the US) of the most promising agents in this field. Particularly LSD but also MDMA.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Not a huge factor really because schedule 1 DEA permits are available. I know a few academics with them. The wreckless abandon with which psychedelics were handed out Willy nilly was some of the evidence for making them schedule 1. Leary was in the 60’s and the Drug Control Act wasn’t until the 70’s. Not a direct cause and effect, but certainly a contribution.
    - virtualritz 5y ago
      The point is that big pharma was pouring money into research of these chemicals to use them for treatment in therapy. The cases of abuse that ultimately led to the stigmatization where blown up because that narrative served the view that the general public had of these substances anyway. The same rhetoric people use today: "encryption should be forbidden because paedophilia|money laundering|<insert whatever upsets your target demographic most>" > Not a huge factor really because schedule 1 DEA permits are available. I know a few academics with them. What good is an permit if you don't have anyone to fund your research? And how do you get research funded for something that can't be brought to market because ... Schedule 1?
      - refurb 5y ago
        I'm not saying the stigma was deserved, just saying it was ammo for opponents to make these drugs schedule 1 to "protect the children". It's kind of how crypto has a reputation for buying drugs online and money laundering. When something gets tainted like that it's hard to shake it. It's a chicken and egg thing. What I'm saying is the scheduling and bad reputation came after the reckless use of the 60's - not before.

s5300 5y ago

Thanks for linking this. That is… really fucked up. Predators in the healthcare industry need to face serious punishment. Unfortunately, they largely don’t and get away with things.

adflux 5y ago
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "The clips culminate with Buisson struggling and wailing as Yensen uses his entire body to pin her to the bed and Dryer holds a towel in her mouth." That is not enjoyment, not consensual, and not ethical.
- scyzoryk_xyz 5y ago
  “Enjoying it” isn’t a therapeutic effect in itself.
- s5300 5y ago
  I hate to post a comment like this on HN, but since I can’t downvote… Did you… actually read the article? Like, at all?
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    Sometimes this is the right comment to post, here or anywhere.
  - JetAlone 5y ago
    Sometimes someone needs to say it. Someone else seconded it, and I'll happily third. Let's get druggie rapists the hell out of our medical systems.

pmoriarty 5y ago

From MAPS's comments on the Yensen/Dryer case: "Updated announcement March 25, 2022 This a public announcement of additional information obtained regarding the conduct of former sub-investigators for a MAPS-sponsored clinical trial, initially publicly reported in 2019. We make this information public as part of our commitment to creating a culture of safety in psychedelic therapy and in alignment with our core value of transparency. The initial ethics complaint was reported to MAPS in 2018 by the participant. The complaint specifically identified the unethical conduct as occurring after the active treatment sessions had concluded in 2015. Yensen and former sub-investigator Donna Dryer verbally confirmed that Yensen engaged in a sexual relationship with the participant. Sexual contact between therapy providers and participants is unethical conduct of sexual abuse in violation of Section 6 of MAPS Code of Ethics for Psychedelic Psychotherapy and generally accepted standards of care. In 2018, as a result of the ethical misconduct, Yensen and Dryer were barred from all MAPS-related activities and from becoming providers of MAPS-affiliated MDMA-assisted therapy if the treatment is approved. On Saturday, November 6, 2021, MAPS staff were interviewed by a reporter who had viewed videos of clinical trial therapy sessions for the participant described in the original announcement below. Session video is made available to participants in MDMA-assisted therapy clinical trials for private review upon request. The reporter characterized former sub-investigator Richard Yensen’s behavior in at least one therapy session as “disturbing.” This characterization triggered a compliance review which was initiated Monday, November 8, 2021. The reopened review of conduct during the trial period includes a review of previous documentation, all available videos of sessions from the sub-investigators, and information reported in media accounts of the participant’s experience. Though the review is ongoing, MAPS has provisionally determined that Yensen and Dryer substantially deviated from the MDMA-assisted Therapy Treatment Manual on several occasions during the treatment period. MAPS has notified the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), Health Canada, Ethics Committees, and relevant authorities that the review has been re-opened. We will continue to keep regulatory agencies, ethics committees, and relevant authorities apprised of any developments on this case. Changes to MAPS policies, practices, or materials made as the direct result of the review will be reported publicly at maps.org/safety."[1] Also see MAPS's article on the Cover Story podcast regarding this issue here: [2] It contains a pretty informative FAQ in which MAPS addresses what it sees as misunderstandings in the media coverage of these events. [1] - https://maps.org/2019/05/24/statement-public-announcement-of-ethical-violation-by-former-maps-sponsored-investigators/ https://maps.org/2019/05/24/statement-public-announcement-of... [2] - https://maps.org/2022/03/01/participant-experiences-cover-story/ https://maps.org/2022/03/01/participant-experiences-cover-st...

renewiltord 5y ago

Huh, that’s pretty much rape, no? He (not depicted in video but described in text) had sexual intercourse with the person in his care while the patient was on MDMA. Homie that is not kosher at all. That is sexual assault. I am a huge fan of these drugs but this part of the world’s shame and puritan culture really shows this unexpected effect: it is not sufficient for something to be pleasant. It also has to be “medically necessary”. The outcome is we get a bunch of things showing that these things are medically necessary. “There is some evidence that X helps Y”. Dude, with the current standard of science I can do that for arbitrary X and Y. And you know what, the truth is that people heal and recover in all sorts of ways. But that’s not enough for us. We need to place everyone under the control of these gatekeepers. And then we find ourselves horrified at the outcome of the machine we have built where the power hungry abuse their power.

awb 5y ago
> He (not depicted in video but described in text) had sexual intercourse with the person in his care while the patient was on MDMA. It sounds like there was “intimate contact” during the session (maybe the spooning?) but the sex was not during the session. Still massively not OK. > Yensen has admitted to having sex with Buisson after the experimental sessions ended but while she was still enrolled in the clinical trial. In a 2018 lawsuit that has since been settled out of court, she alleged it was sexual assault, while Yensen claimed in his response that Buisson manipulated him and initiated the encounter.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  Thanks for that correction. Still totally horrible but not as bad as what I said it was.

JetAlone 5y ago

Drug 'em up, mask 'em up, make 'em face their darkest fears. That's the enduring pattern of a lot of "coming of age" initiation rituals across many different cultures. I'm not shocked to see this is the approach an unaccredited drum-beatin' hippie looking couple in beautiful British Columbia tried to carry out.

SpodGaju 5y ago
To say that people with mood disorders are “not facing the darkest fears” is about as primitive and frankly stupid as it gets.
- jonsen 5y ago
  I guess you could benefit from consulting a dictionary on 'to face'.
  - SpodGaju 5y ago
    "confront and deal with or accept a difficult or unpleasant task, fact, or situation." ? Still feel the same. Have something more insightful to add?
    - arapacana 5y ago
      People with trauma and mood disorders are by definition in constant contact with what is bogging them down.
      - SpodGaju 5y ago
        Truth! Telling people like me to "face their demons" when they pushed me into homelessness but the demons still live with me in my van. I am not saying this to be mean, but people who have encourage these approaches do not have a mood disorder. They are sad people with sad lives.

sva_ 5y ago

That's... Disturbing. I'm surprised I didn't hear about this before. Honestly, fuck those people.

tomatowurst 5y ago
me too i was going to sign up for this but now im really afraid now. damn i was really looking forward to MDMA therapy to deal with PTSD stuff there needs to be harsh consequences and strong regulation. make sure people are going to trained and licensed practioners who will agree to recorded footage.
- jamal-kumar 5y ago
  Consider doing the drug solo or at a party with trusted friends first and then trying integration therapy. The truth is most professional (ideally accredited, so shit like this doesn't happen) facilitators aren't going to give you the stuff themselves because they aren't licensed to. I think that's about to radically change in Canada without a lot of radical change in who gets to be a therapist or counsellor and that's pretty troubling, but so are a lot of really weird oversights in that country
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "i was going to sign up for this but now im really afraid now" If you were seriously considering signing up for the study, I encourage you to contact the investigators who are running the study and/or MAPS and voice your concerns. Not only would it help them understand what concerns prospective study participants have, but they may be able to answer your concerns to your satisfaction.

emteycz 5y ago

> For that to happen in this environment, under far more scrutiny than the substance will ever again be under, is extremely troubling What? A therapist molested a drugged person and they blame the drug? Wtf?

jamal-kumar 5y ago
The biggest thing to me is the total lack of accreditation necessary in order to become a 'therapist' or 'counsellor' in the province this happened in therapist... the rapist... what's the fucking difference it's BC haha
SpodGaju 5y ago
Yeah, it scares me that they are more protective of the drug than they are of the person who was raped. Sounds like some sort of weird MDMA cult.

refurb 5y ago

Fascinating how the 2020's is turning into a rerun of the 1960's-1970's: riots, rising oil prices, supply shocks, rising inflation and now the same "wild west" mentality about psychedelics that killed all legitimate research back then.

virtualritz 5y ago
What killed legitimate research was the FUD-informed Schedule 1 classification (or similar, outside the US) of the most promising agents in this field. Particularly LSD but also MDMA.
- refurb 5y ago
  Not a huge factor really because schedule 1 DEA permits are available. I know a few academics with them. The wreckless abandon with which psychedelics were handed out Willy nilly was some of the evidence for making them schedule 1. Leary was in the 60’s and the Drug Control Act wasn’t until the 70’s. Not a direct cause and effect, but certainly a contribution.
  - virtualritz 5y ago
    The point is that big pharma was pouring money into research of these chemicals to use them for treatment in therapy. The cases of abuse that ultimately led to the stigmatization where blown up because that narrative served the view that the general public had of these substances anyway. The same rhetoric people use today: "encryption should be forbidden because paedophilia|money laundering|<insert whatever upsets your target demographic most>" > Not a huge factor really because schedule 1 DEA permits are available. I know a few academics with them. What good is an permit if you don't have anyone to fund your research? And how do you get research funded for something that can't be brought to market because ... Schedule 1?
    - refurb 5y ago
      I'm not saying the stigma was deserved, just saying it was ammo for opponents to make these drugs schedule 1 to "protect the children". It's kind of how crypto has a reputation for buying drugs online and money laundering. When something gets tainted like that it's hard to shake it. It's a chicken and egg thing. What I'm saying is the scheduling and bad reputation came after the reckless use of the 60's - not before.