7 ms·

I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. The mental health epidemic for r

I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. The mental health epidemic for returning veterans for example[1]: "More than 45,000 veterans and active-duty service members have killed themselves in the past six years. That is more than 20 deaths a day — in other words, __more suicides each year than the total American military deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq__." "“One of the biggest battles is the military culture,” Ms. Ruocco said. “Seeking mental health treatment goes against everything they are taught in boot camp,” where service members are told “to push through pain, to think of everybody else before self, to solve problems with lethal force if necessary.”" [1] https://archive.is/oxZZ3#selection-533.0-533.303 https://archive.is/oxZZ3#selection-533.0-533.303

vmception 5y ago
Right, it should be sold next to the other poisonous stuff at the gas station that has disclaimers for the consumer to keep it away from children. The public itself needs to readjust its role with the government, where availability doesn't mean endorsement.
- nerdponx 5y ago
  This doesn't work with alcohol or nicotine. Why should it work with MDMA?
  - taurath 5y ago
    One might rather live in a world where MDMA (a far less addicting substance with more acute rather than chronic side effects) is endemic rather than those two.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      Yeah, MDMA will simply stop working for you for a while after you do it a few times in a row. Alcohol, not really.
      - SpodGaju 5y ago
        You literally described what addiction is in reference to MDMA. And this is going to be the problem with the drug for treating mood disorders. Just like Prozac, it will stop working And you will need a larger dose for the same action. Just because you don’t actively go out and seek for a drug does not mean you are not addicted (conditioned)to it.
        WillDaSilva 5y ago
        Addiction and tolerance are related, but distinct.
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        The outcome is the same no matter the difference. But can I tell you my own brother said he "could not live without Prozac." What does that sound like to you?
        amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        Like he’s taking a life saving medicine? How many people can’t live without insulin?
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        If you have never taken these medication you have never known what it is like to try to stop them. Heroin could be considered a life saving medicine in the same vein. Prozac artificially increases serotonin as as a result your serotonin receptor density changes. So trying to stop the drug, not only do you end up with all these horrible side effect, but your depression will be much worse until your receptor density normalizes again. There is a biological marker for the need of insulin. There is no such thing when it comes to prozac. Keep trying people.
        emteycz 5y ago
- jychang 5y ago
  YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. And I say that as someone who is a proponent of MDMA legalization. It is well known that humans can't make rational choices. If refrigerators with CFCs were still legal to purchase alongside non-CFC refrigerators, I'd be willing to bet the ozone layer would probably not exist right now. If leaded gasoline wasn't basically banned, I bet plenty of people will still drive around using leaded gasoline.
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    True, covid only proved the public health question can't be solved from the individualistic point of view. Many drugs have a big cost on society, not just individual who decides to take them.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. That is because "acting like adult" is used as term of approval. It means "a theoretically ideal" behavior. It does not mean "average adult have that psychology" nor "average adult have that value".
    - jychang 5y ago
      That's like calling "getting a C- in a class so that you pass the class" or "not pissing your own pants" some sort of "theoretically ideal" behavior. Yes, it's "ideal" in the sense that not everyone accomplishes that behavior (some people will fail a class or have bladder issues, obviously). But that doesn't mean "half the population failing Algebra I" or "half the population regularly pees their own pants" is an acceptable outcome in society. Just because you can define "acting like an adult" as ideal rather than true in all real cases doesn't mean it shouldn't be an expectation.
  - vmception 5y ago
    This doesn’t seem to change my point. Lysol can kill you and all your children. Mouthwash can. And for something with more similarities: advil. All sold in gas stations. So, do the studies just so that we can have fine print on the side of the bottle just like everything else, and sell it alongside everything else.
kgwxd 5y ago
> think of everybody else before self, to solve problems with lethal force if necessary. What choice do you have if you become the problem for everybody else?
virtualritz 5y ago
> I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. But alcohol (or tobacco) should? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_asses...
- SpodGaju 5y ago
  No, they shouldn’t.
- moritonal 5y ago
  I believe this is an almost text-book case of the Straw man argument[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
  - bin_bash 5y ago
    I think it's Whataboutism, not Straw man
- klysm 5y ago
  Well, there go the goal posts
- W4ldi 5y ago
  If you think Tobacco and Alcohol are as dangerous as MDMA you have no idea about drugs. It can escalate far far far more easily and I hate those comparison. I'm speaking from experience.
  - LocalH 5y ago
    Alcohol is far more dangerous than MDMA, both in long-term usage and immediate effects. Especially when you consider how socially acceptable it is to drink alcohol, and thus the total consumption of alcohol is far higher. Tobacco is largely dangerous in the long term, the immediate damage from tobacco is much smaller.
ramesh31 5y ago
>I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. Yeah, almost like it should be... a prescription medication sold at pharmacies?
standardUser 5y ago
"I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station" You have two options- the drug can be sold legally or we can have an excess number of deaths from overdoses, impurities and black market violence. For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  > For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering. The problem is that we are asked to decriminalize drugs (like fentanyl) at the same time that we are asked to dedicated massive public resources for the rehabilitation of those people who then used those decriminalized drugs. I would be happy if it were one way or the other, but right now it sucks.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    The money we spend to try (and fail) to stop drug production, trafficking, sale and use could instead be used to help cover the obviously colossal, multi-generational shortfall we have on mental health and addiction spending. Not to mention revenue raised from taxes. Maybe there should be exceptions made for exceptionally deadly and addictive dugs, like fentanyl.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      That money won't be enough. Those people are simply broken, most of them aren't being fixed no matter how many resources we throw at them. Convincing us that we should let people do what they want with drugs and somehow...that it is also our responsibility to pick up the pieces for these people as a consequence, it sounds like hypocrisy. Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (by letting people be poor and closing the mental hospitals) isn't going to convince many people that we should allow drug abuse and pay for the consequences as well.
      - 5y ago

vmception 5y ago

Right, it should be sold next to the other poisonous stuff at the gas station that has disclaimers for the consumer to keep it away from children. The public itself needs to readjust its role with the government, where availability doesn't mean endorsement.

nerdponx 5y ago
This doesn't work with alcohol or nicotine. Why should it work with MDMA?
- taurath 5y ago
  One might rather live in a world where MDMA (a far less addicting substance with more acute rather than chronic side effects) is endemic rather than those two.
  - emteycz 5y ago
    Yeah, MDMA will simply stop working for you for a while after you do it a few times in a row. Alcohol, not really.
    - SpodGaju 5y ago
      You literally described what addiction is in reference to MDMA. And this is going to be the problem with the drug for treating mood disorders. Just like Prozac, it will stop working And you will need a larger dose for the same action. Just because you don’t actively go out and seek for a drug does not mean you are not addicted (conditioned)to it.
      - WillDaSilva 5y ago
        Addiction and tolerance are related, but distinct.
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        The outcome is the same no matter the difference. But can I tell you my own brother said he "could not live without Prozac." What does that sound like to you?
        amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        Like he’s taking a life saving medicine? How many people can’t live without insulin?
        SpodGaju 5y ago
        If you have never taken these medication you have never known what it is like to try to stop them. Heroin could be considered a life saving medicine in the same vein. Prozac artificially increases serotonin as as a result your serotonin receptor density changes. So trying to stop the drug, not only do you end up with all these horrible side effect, but your depression will be much worse until your receptor density normalizes again. There is a biological marker for the need of insulin. There is no such thing when it comes to prozac. Keep trying people.
        emteycz 5y ago
jychang 5y ago
YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. And I say that as someone who is a proponent of MDMA legalization. It is well known that humans can't make rational choices. If refrigerators with CFCs were still legal to purchase alongside non-CFC refrigerators, I'd be willing to bet the ozone layer would probably not exist right now. If leaded gasoline wasn't basically banned, I bet plenty of people will still drive around using leaded gasoline.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  True, covid only proved the public health question can't be solved from the individualistic point of view. Many drugs have a big cost on society, not just individual who decides to take them.
- watwut 5y ago
  > YOU might be an adult, but honestly in the past few years, it seems pretty clear that plenty of people who are age 18 or 21 or even age 40 can't seem to act like adults. That is because "acting like adult" is used as term of approval. It means "a theoretically ideal" behavior. It does not mean "average adult have that psychology" nor "average adult have that value".
  - jychang 5y ago
    That's like calling "getting a C- in a class so that you pass the class" or "not pissing your own pants" some sort of "theoretically ideal" behavior. Yes, it's "ideal" in the sense that not everyone accomplishes that behavior (some people will fail a class or have bladder issues, obviously). But that doesn't mean "half the population failing Algebra I" or "half the population regularly pees their own pants" is an acceptable outcome in society. Just because you can define "acting like an adult" as ideal rather than true in all real cases doesn't mean it shouldn't be an expectation.
- vmception 5y ago
  This doesn’t seem to change my point. Lysol can kill you and all your children. Mouthwash can. And for something with more similarities: advil. All sold in gas stations. So, do the studies just so that we can have fine print on the side of the bottle just like everything else, and sell it alongside everything else.

kgwxd 5y ago

> think of everybody else before self, to solve problems with lethal force if necessary. What choice do you have if you become the problem for everybody else?

virtualritz 5y ago

> I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. But alcohol (or tobacco) should? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rational_scale_to_asses...

SpodGaju 5y ago
No, they shouldn’t.
moritonal 5y ago
I believe this is an almost text-book case of the Straw man argument[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
- bin_bash 5y ago
  I think it's Whataboutism, not Straw man
klysm 5y ago
Well, there go the goal posts
W4ldi 5y ago
If you think Tobacco and Alcohol are as dangerous as MDMA you have no idea about drugs. It can escalate far far far more easily and I hate those comparison. I'm speaking from experience.
- LocalH 5y ago
  Alcohol is far more dangerous than MDMA, both in long-term usage and immediate effects. Especially when you consider how socially acceptable it is to drink alcohol, and thus the total consumption of alcohol is far higher. Tobacco is largely dangerous in the long term, the immediate damage from tobacco is much smaller.

ramesh31 5y ago

>I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station beside the humpty dumpty peanuts... but it does have its place. Yeah, almost like it should be... a prescription medication sold at pharmacies?

standardUser 5y ago

"I don't think this stuff should be sold, say, in a gas station" You have two options- the drug can be sold legally or we can have an excess number of deaths from overdoses, impurities and black market violence. For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> For some inexplicable reason, the majority of people continue to chose the option that guarantees the most human suffering. The problem is that we are asked to decriminalize drugs (like fentanyl) at the same time that we are asked to dedicated massive public resources for the rehabilitation of those people who then used those decriminalized drugs. I would be happy if it were one way or the other, but right now it sucks.
- standardUser 5y ago
  The money we spend to try (and fail) to stop drug production, trafficking, sale and use could instead be used to help cover the obviously colossal, multi-generational shortfall we have on mental health and addiction spending. Not to mention revenue raised from taxes. Maybe there should be exceptions made for exceptionally deadly and addictive dugs, like fentanyl.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    That money won't be enough. Those people are simply broken, most of them aren't being fixed no matter how many resources we throw at them. Convincing us that we should let people do what they want with drugs and somehow...that it is also our responsibility to pick up the pieces for these people as a consequence, it sounds like hypocrisy. Deflecting that society was responsible for the drug abuse in the first place (by letting people be poor and closing the mental hospitals) isn't going to convince many people that we should allow drug abuse and pay for the consequences as well.
    - 5y ago