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In case you are wondering what this does (like I was), Wikipedia states "This bill is designed to solve [American dependence on China] by reducing reliance on C

In case you are wondering what this does (like I was), Wikipedia states "This bill is designed to solve [American dependence on China] by reducing reliance on Chinese manufacturing of semiconductors and increasing America's scientific and technological achievements." Basically, it allocates a bunch of money for supply chain and production improvements.

twoquestions 5y ago
Thank you for the tldr.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
newshorts 5y ago
That would be amazing.
- killjoywashere 5y ago
  Keep in mind that China will not stop being a problem, it just moves it around. The CCP will have more people in the US with family back in China, so they can manipulate those in the US to steal and spy for them. They will grow the presence of CSSAs and universities will become increasingly dependent on income from fulltime Chinese students, which will paradoxically disincentivize US universities from educating US students. One needs only look at the UC system to see this is true (they're not shy about it, plenty of details here https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/about-us/information-center https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/about-us/information-...). I'm not saying the COMPETES Act is good or bad, just that it's going to reshape the China problem a bit. And for those itching to downvote me: the Chinese people are fine folks. the CCP is a helluva problem.
  - ceeplusplus 5y ago
    Ah yes, because every PhD immigrant that comes to the US must be a CCP agent. Why don't we just dispense with the thin veil you're trying to hide your racism behind?
    - kelnos 5y ago
      I think this is a bit of an extreme response. I don't think the parent was suggesting that every Chinese PhD student in the US (or even a majority of them) is a CCP agent, just that it does happen, and the more Chinese PhD students who end up in the US, it's likely that more of them will be beholden to the CCP in some way. I think your framing as "agents" is a bit sensationalized. You're evoking images of these highly-trained spies willing to do anything to steal for their country. My expectation is that most folks are just regular-Joe type people who just want a good education, but are pressured by their government to pass back certain kinds of information (with under-specified by scary consequences for their family if they don't comply). I have a lot of sympathy for the people who get caught up in this situation. They're people who are trapped in a way that requires them to pay a higher (moral) price to obtain a good education. I'm not sure I'd have the strength to behave any differently if I were in their shoes. (Also consider that the US's industrialization was fueled by plenty of academic and industrial espionage. That doesn't make what goes on today ok, but let's not pretend our historical hands are clean.)
    - someguydave 5y ago
      America is many times less racist than China is. I think it is proper to debate the degree to which allowing Chinese citizens to immigrate helps or hurts America.
  - eli_gottlieb 5y ago
    >universities will become increasingly dependent on income from fulltime Chinese students I mean, sure, because Americans keep voting to defund public higher ed.
lumost 5y ago
Does government allocation of funds make a difference when competing with China? It would seem that the Chinese government would simply match/re-up the industrial policy to be more competitive. If we're concerned about over reliance on Chinese manufacture, why not create a tariff?
- cherioo 5y ago
  Tariff may help US company to buy US product, but it won’t encourage anyone else to buy potentially uncompetitive US product. At some point, we need to increase product competitiveness, which ultimately benefits everyone. That or sanction china so they can’t build competitive product, like Huawei.
  - paxys 5y ago
    And in this case there is no US product to buy. US semiconductor manufacturing simply cannot compete on the global stage, hence the need for this investment.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    the US can't compete with China's artificial suppression of the Yuan price to help export prices, or the high levels of exploitation and lack of rights & regulations to benefit Chinese workers.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Of course, it can. The solution would be to depress the USD. It's just that the US decided it is more profitable to extract value by holding the reserve currency.
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        the US government isn't in control of the dollar rate - the central bank is private.
jeffbee 5y ago
Imagine using government money to fund Intel, AMD, Micron, Apple, etc with combined capitalization over 4 trillion dollars. Instead they should be levying massive windfall taxes on these companies' overseas cash hoards, and using those revenues to fund onshore semiconductor startups.
- bradlys 5y ago
  Aren’t fabs and all that like multi-billion dollar projects? How does one realistically become a startup in that space when the capital to start is so intensive? (At least these days - idk about back in the past)
  - polski-g 5y ago
    Tax Intel to fund semiconductor startups.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    You are under-estimating how much cash these American companies are holding.
    - bradlys 5y ago
      I’m not but this is basically wealth redistribution taken quite far. You may as well be advocating for full on Marxism at that level. Which is fine. But just know your audience? (A hyper capitalistic startup crowd???)
- duped 5y ago
  The US government has been funding semiconductor manufacturing since Fairchild, which spawned two of the companies you listed. Overseas cash reserves are a separate issue that can be fixed by removing the corporate tax. It should be 0%, we would all be better off if that were the case.
  - someguydave 5y ago
    Yes, corporate income tax is deadweight loss.

twoquestions 5y ago

Thank you for the tldr.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

newshorts 5y ago

That would be amazing.

killjoywashere 5y ago
Keep in mind that China will not stop being a problem, it just moves it around. The CCP will have more people in the US with family back in China, so they can manipulate those in the US to steal and spy for them. They will grow the presence of CSSAs and universities will become increasingly dependent on income from fulltime Chinese students, which will paradoxically disincentivize US universities from educating US students. One needs only look at the UC system to see this is true (they're not shy about it, plenty of details here https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/about-us/information-center https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/about-us/information-...). I'm not saying the COMPETES Act is good or bad, just that it's going to reshape the China problem a bit. And for those itching to downvote me: the Chinese people are fine folks. the CCP is a helluva problem.
- ceeplusplus 5y ago
  Ah yes, because every PhD immigrant that comes to the US must be a CCP agent. Why don't we just dispense with the thin veil you're trying to hide your racism behind?
  - kelnos 5y ago
    I think this is a bit of an extreme response. I don't think the parent was suggesting that every Chinese PhD student in the US (or even a majority of them) is a CCP agent, just that it does happen, and the more Chinese PhD students who end up in the US, it's likely that more of them will be beholden to the CCP in some way. I think your framing as "agents" is a bit sensationalized. You're evoking images of these highly-trained spies willing to do anything to steal for their country. My expectation is that most folks are just regular-Joe type people who just want a good education, but are pressured by their government to pass back certain kinds of information (with under-specified by scary consequences for their family if they don't comply). I have a lot of sympathy for the people who get caught up in this situation. They're people who are trapped in a way that requires them to pay a higher (moral) price to obtain a good education. I'm not sure I'd have the strength to behave any differently if I were in their shoes. (Also consider that the US's industrialization was fueled by plenty of academic and industrial espionage. That doesn't make what goes on today ok, but let's not pretend our historical hands are clean.)
  - someguydave 5y ago
    America is many times less racist than China is. I think it is proper to debate the degree to which allowing Chinese citizens to immigrate helps or hurts America.
- eli_gottlieb 5y ago
  >universities will become increasingly dependent on income from fulltime Chinese students I mean, sure, because Americans keep voting to defund public higher ed.

lumost 5y ago

Does government allocation of funds make a difference when competing with China? It would seem that the Chinese government would simply match/re-up the industrial policy to be more competitive. If we're concerned about over reliance on Chinese manufacture, why not create a tariff?

cherioo 5y ago
Tariff may help US company to buy US product, but it won’t encourage anyone else to buy potentially uncompetitive US product. At some point, we need to increase product competitiveness, which ultimately benefits everyone. That or sanction china so they can’t build competitive product, like Huawei.
- paxys 5y ago
  And in this case there is no US product to buy. US semiconductor manufacturing simply cannot compete on the global stage, hence the need for this investment.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  the US can't compete with China's artificial suppression of the Yuan price to help export prices, or the high levels of exploitation and lack of rights & regulations to benefit Chinese workers.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Of course, it can. The solution would be to depress the USD. It's just that the US decided it is more profitable to extract value by holding the reserve currency.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      the US government isn't in control of the dollar rate - the central bank is private.

jeffbee 5y ago

Imagine using government money to fund Intel, AMD, Micron, Apple, etc with combined capitalization over 4 trillion dollars. Instead they should be levying massive windfall taxes on these companies' overseas cash hoards, and using those revenues to fund onshore semiconductor startups.

bradlys 5y ago
Aren’t fabs and all that like multi-billion dollar projects? How does one realistically become a startup in that space when the capital to start is so intensive? (At least these days - idk about back in the past)
- polski-g 5y ago
  Tax Intel to fund semiconductor startups.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  You are under-estimating how much cash these American companies are holding.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    I’m not but this is basically wealth redistribution taken quite far. You may as well be advocating for full on Marxism at that level. Which is fine. But just know your audience? (A hyper capitalistic startup crowd???)
duped 5y ago
The US government has been funding semiconductor manufacturing since Fairchild, which spawned two of the companies you listed. Overseas cash reserves are a separate issue that can be fixed by removing the corporate tax. It should be 0%, we would all be better off if that were the case.
- someguydave 5y ago
  Yes, corporate income tax is deadweight loss.