5 ms·

Perhaps you missed the "objective" part of "objective metric". If, for example, we want to determine a student's proficiency in algebra, it is far less useful

Perhaps you missed the "objective" part of "objective metric". If, for example, we want to determine a student's proficiency in algebra, it is far less useful to compare feedback from teachers with different standards, different abilities and different objectives than it is to compare the results from an objective test that is given to all students in all classes. Unlike standardized tests, teachers (and their assessments) vary wildly. The goals, expectations and abilities of an algebra teacher in Scranton, Ohio may (and often do) vary wildly from the goals, expectations and abilities of an algebra teacher in Juno, Alaska. Take ten different teachers and ask them to write an assessment of the same student, based on the same coursework, and you will get ten wildly different assessments. Teacher assessments may be useful for student feedback, but they are not useful for comparing the relative grasp of course information by different students.

zem 5y ago
if (as people are claiming here) grades don't accurately measure proficiency, their being objective won't magically make them a better measure.
- mattcwilson 5y ago
  If grades are utterly uncorrelated with proficiency, then you are correct. Is that your claim? Grades have zero information content, zero predictive power, over someone’s proficiency at the time the grades are given?
  - zem 5y ago
    no, my claim is that if grades are not a good measure of proficiency, it is irrelevant whether they are an objective measure or not. I have not studied the field well enough to know whether they actually are a good measure or not.
  - StanislavPetrov 5y ago
    It is an absurd claim on its face. I don't think tests are perfect, nor have I seen anyone make the claim that they are. But, for example, when it comes to measuring the proficiency of different students in different classrooms being taught algebra by different teachers each with their own method and style of evaluation, there is simply no replacement for a standardized test.
    - musicale 5y ago
      > But, for example, when it comes to measuring the proficiency of different students in different classrooms being taught algebra by different teachers each with their own method and style of evaluation, there is simply no replacement for a standardized test. The problem really isn't tests per se, but the approach of ranking students by their scores and rewarding them or punishing them accordingly. The goal shouldn't be to stack rank students for some sort of pyramid reward system but rather to help as many students as possible to achieve mastery while preparing them for future success. A competitive environment with rewards and punishments may work for some students (usually the ones who are on top) but can discourage other students (usually the ones on the bottom) and destroy their interest in learning.
      - chii 5y ago
        > A competitive environment with rewards and punishments competition requires that there be something scarce (otherwise, why can't everybody have the thing being competed over?) So a GPA score is a competition for who gets the "best" college placements, or limited funds from taxation to fund higher education. Therefore, to solve the problem, it isn't enough to remove GPA scores (or equivalent), because another, more murky metric would be used to compete. The resource being competed for must be expanded, and more of it made available. Sometimes this isn't possible, but i dont think higher education should be a limited resource - it is worth the cost paid since a more educated populous is beneficial to the whole of society.
blacklion 5y ago
For algebra you could create standard "objective" test. Maybe. Though, I can imagine problems with such test too (think: Srinivasa Ramanujan). For creative writing? I don't think so. Note, all grading proponents speak about arithmetic, algebra and other such "mechanistic" subjects. Original submission speaks about writing. To me, it like comparing 100m sprint and Figure Skating. Results at former are precisely measurable. Results at latter is subjective, really.

zem 5y ago

if (as people are claiming here) grades don't accurately measure proficiency, their being objective won't magically make them a better measure.

mattcwilson 5y ago
If grades are utterly uncorrelated with proficiency, then you are correct. Is that your claim? Grades have zero information content, zero predictive power, over someone’s proficiency at the time the grades are given?
- zem 5y ago
  no, my claim is that if grades are not a good measure of proficiency, it is irrelevant whether they are an objective measure or not. I have not studied the field well enough to know whether they actually are a good measure or not.
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  It is an absurd claim on its face. I don't think tests are perfect, nor have I seen anyone make the claim that they are. But, for example, when it comes to measuring the proficiency of different students in different classrooms being taught algebra by different teachers each with their own method and style of evaluation, there is simply no replacement for a standardized test.
  - musicale 5y ago
    > But, for example, when it comes to measuring the proficiency of different students in different classrooms being taught algebra by different teachers each with their own method and style of evaluation, there is simply no replacement for a standardized test. The problem really isn't tests per se, but the approach of ranking students by their scores and rewarding them or punishing them accordingly. The goal shouldn't be to stack rank students for some sort of pyramid reward system but rather to help as many students as possible to achieve mastery while preparing them for future success. A competitive environment with rewards and punishments may work for some students (usually the ones who are on top) but can discourage other students (usually the ones on the bottom) and destroy their interest in learning.
    - chii 5y ago
      > A competitive environment with rewards and punishments competition requires that there be something scarce (otherwise, why can't everybody have the thing being competed over?) So a GPA score is a competition for who gets the "best" college placements, or limited funds from taxation to fund higher education. Therefore, to solve the problem, it isn't enough to remove GPA scores (or equivalent), because another, more murky metric would be used to compete. The resource being competed for must be expanded, and more of it made available. Sometimes this isn't possible, but i dont think higher education should be a limited resource - it is worth the cost paid since a more educated populous is beneficial to the whole of society.

blacklion 5y ago

For algebra you could create standard "objective" test. Maybe. Though, I can imagine problems with such test too (think: Srinivasa Ramanujan). For creative writing? I don't think so. Note, all grading proponents speak about arithmetic, algebra and other such "mechanistic" subjects. Original submission speaks about writing. To me, it like comparing 100m sprint and Figure Skating. Results at former are precisely measurable. Results at latter is subjective, really.