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>* Giving criminals and scammers the ability to exchange goods and services anonymously. I don't see how this is any different than the bog standard "encryptio

>* Giving criminals and scammers the ability to exchange goods and services anonymously. I don't see how this is any different than the bog standard "encryption lets criminals and scammers the ability to exchange goods and services anonymously.". Should money/txns be fundamentally track-able/examinable/un-encrypted but your private data/messages not? Surely this contention is something you also consider -- care to expand? >* Convincing older and gullible people to give their money to someone they don't know and a technology they can't explain I am surprised. My initial viewpoint was why would scammers bother to fish for bitcoin when bank transfers/gift cards are a lower barrier -- but seems you are right [1], the cat and mouse chase continues... [1] https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kitboga+bitcoin https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kitboga+bitcoin

allturtles 5y ago
> I don't see how this is any different than the bog standard "encryption lets criminals and scammers the ability to exchange goods and services anonymously." The obvious difference is that encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications.
- Sargos 5y ago
  >encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications So does crypto but likewise opponents of encryption disregard the positives and focus on the negatives to align with their preformed ideas. The only way out of this trap is to have an open mind and internalize the fact that all technologies can be used for good and evil and thus are relatively neutral overall. Humanity must take the good and bad and see where the path goes in order to advance as a species.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > So does crypto It doesn't. Everyone who claims otherwise can't come up with a single credible example.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria. Your on the clock..
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        >> It doesn't. Everyone who claims otherwise can't come up with a single credible example. > Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria. That is not a credible example. Here are some reasons: 1) Paying for porn? Paying for porn when the implication is that it's illegal and could get you in trouble? Who would do that? 2) Cryptocurrency isn't anonymous, and is usually highly traceable. 3) And even if it was anonymous, what good will it do when your DNS lookups will divulge you're looking at gay porn? 4) Oh, so now someone's supposed to be using some elaborate TOR/VPN setup in a repressive country, just so they can pay for porn? 5) What, exactly is the process for converting Syrian Pounds into cryptocurrency again? 6) etc. > Your on the clock.. Why were you so confident in your non-credible example?
        ipaddr 5y ago
        Who would pay for porn? Someone who wants to see what's behind that paywall. Crytocurrency is difficult and costly to trace and exchange identifying not available to Syria. VPNs would be used Same process for other currencies on Binance and other exchanges.
        jhugo 5y ago
        When did Binance start to accept the Syrian Pound? This is just the usual hand-waving that ignores all the inconvenient details.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ipaddr 5y ago
        You might be surprised: https://www.fxempire.com/crypto/exchange/binance/review https://www.fxempire.com/crypto/exchange/binance/review
  - virtualritz 5y ago
    >> encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications > So does crypto [...] I'd wager that this is a lie. Please name one. These systems are self referential. Great if all to do is speculate with value changes inside the system. Other use cases? In short: no one has come up with any solution to the oracle problem. As soon as you want to exchange anything crypto with anything but crypto (e.g. USD or a physical asset like a loaf of bread) you need trust.[1] [1] https://youtu.be/MiLnDe_bX6Y https://youtu.be/MiLnDe_bX6Y
    - sterlind 5y ago
      I don't have much invested in crypto, and I find PoW hideous. I think crypto is most useful for illegal things and tradecraft, but illegal doesn't mean immoral, and useful to criminals is still useful. * Buying VPN relays anonymously, for connecting to through Tor, VPSes etc. * Buying drugs. * Donating to causes sanctioned by your country. * Paying informants. * Allowing you to prove you're the author of something, or knew a secret, later on. * "Dead hand" schemes which release information if your wallet activity stops for more than a couple weeks. This keeps people from killing you to keep something from getting out. * Online gambling. * Evading financial controls to send money to your family abroad. Some of this doesn't require any trust (e.g. proving you knew something before some date), most of the rest requires trust, but what makes crypto useful for these cases isn't lack of trust but auditability, anonymity and/or lack of control by authorities.
      - Kostchei 5y ago
        I have worked in (used personally or done professionally) pre-crypto versions of these, excluding the dead hand scheme- and although some were a little complex and had some risk, I would argue that the new version has the same complexity and risk, only it seems to be hidden by crypto buzz-words. Also reminds me why I don't do those things any more.
        OOPMan 5y ago
        Indeed. I've come across a dead letter application that has been around for ages and I'm pretty sure it doesn't use crypto. Honestly, using crypto for something like seems a bit nuts, like using a jackhammer to destroy a cardboard box.
- sk55 5y ago
  Crypto has tons of awesome use cases. Here's a list of 77 use cases. https://blog.chain.link/44-ways-to-enhance-your-smart-contract-with-chainlink/ https://blog.chain.link/44-ways-to-enhance-your-smart-contra...
sfifs 5y ago
> . My initial viewpoint was why would scammers bother to fish for bitcoin when bank transfers/gift cards are a lower barrier Because bank transfers at least are inherently traceable. It just requires a sufficiently motivated government agency or prosecutor to go after them. On Gift cards, there's a lot publicity regarding scams and stores are increasingly flagging scams. Crypto for now at least is far safer from a scmer POV as it requires far higher level of investment and expertise to trace and unmask, so only the ultra big fish seem to get chased
LtdJorge 5y ago
The difference is crypto(graphy) is "old" and established, while crypto(currencies) and blockchain are new and trendy. It's like what happened with the JS frameworks, which have stabilized now a bit. Everyone wanted to create a new amazing project, everyone was lured into using X or Y framework because Z. But not many know a lot about them. Same with crypto, people see it's trendy and go in even if they lack all the technical knowledge around it. Thus, scams and hacks are everywhere.

allturtles 5y ago

> I don't see how this is any different than the bog standard "encryption lets criminals and scammers the ability to exchange goods and services anonymously." The obvious difference is that encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications.

Sargos 5y ago
>encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications So does crypto but likewise opponents of encryption disregard the positives and focus on the negatives to align with their preformed ideas. The only way out of this trap is to have an open mind and internalize the fact that all technologies can be used for good and evil and thus are relatively neutral overall. Humanity must take the good and bad and see where the path goes in order to advance as a species.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > So does crypto It doesn't. Everyone who claims otherwise can't come up with a single credible example.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria. Your on the clock..
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      >> It doesn't. Everyone who claims otherwise can't come up with a single credible example. > Buying a subscription to gay.com from Syria. That is not a credible example. Here are some reasons: 1) Paying for porn? Paying for porn when the implication is that it's illegal and could get you in trouble? Who would do that? 2) Cryptocurrency isn't anonymous, and is usually highly traceable. 3) And even if it was anonymous, what good will it do when your DNS lookups will divulge you're looking at gay porn? 4) Oh, so now someone's supposed to be using some elaborate TOR/VPN setup in a repressive country, just so they can pay for porn? 5) What, exactly is the process for converting Syrian Pounds into cryptocurrency again? 6) etc. > Your on the clock.. Why were you so confident in your non-credible example?
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        Who would pay for porn? Someone who wants to see what's behind that paywall. Crytocurrency is difficult and costly to trace and exchange identifying not available to Syria. VPNs would be used Same process for other currencies on Binance and other exchanges.
        jhugo 5y ago
        When did Binance start to accept the Syrian Pound? This is just the usual hand-waving that ignores all the inconvenient details.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ipaddr 5y ago
        You might be surprised: https://www.fxempire.com/crypto/exchange/binance/review https://www.fxempire.com/crypto/exchange/binance/review
- virtualritz 5y ago
  >> encryption has many, many actually useful and productive applications > So does crypto [...] I'd wager that this is a lie. Please name one. These systems are self referential. Great if all to do is speculate with value changes inside the system. Other use cases? In short: no one has come up with any solution to the oracle problem. As soon as you want to exchange anything crypto with anything but crypto (e.g. USD or a physical asset like a loaf of bread) you need trust.[1] [1] https://youtu.be/MiLnDe_bX6Y https://youtu.be/MiLnDe_bX6Y
  - sterlind 5y ago
    I don't have much invested in crypto, and I find PoW hideous. I think crypto is most useful for illegal things and tradecraft, but illegal doesn't mean immoral, and useful to criminals is still useful. * Buying VPN relays anonymously, for connecting to through Tor, VPSes etc. * Buying drugs. * Donating to causes sanctioned by your country. * Paying informants. * Allowing you to prove you're the author of something, or knew a secret, later on. * "Dead hand" schemes which release information if your wallet activity stops for more than a couple weeks. This keeps people from killing you to keep something from getting out. * Online gambling. * Evading financial controls to send money to your family abroad. Some of this doesn't require any trust (e.g. proving you knew something before some date), most of the rest requires trust, but what makes crypto useful for these cases isn't lack of trust but auditability, anonymity and/or lack of control by authorities.
    - Kostchei 5y ago
      I have worked in (used personally or done professionally) pre-crypto versions of these, excluding the dead hand scheme- and although some were a little complex and had some risk, I would argue that the new version has the same complexity and risk, only it seems to be hidden by crypto buzz-words. Also reminds me why I don't do those things any more.
      - OOPMan 5y ago
        Indeed. I've come across a dead letter application that has been around for ages and I'm pretty sure it doesn't use crypto. Honestly, using crypto for something like seems a bit nuts, like using a jackhammer to destroy a cardboard box.
sk55 5y ago
Crypto has tons of awesome use cases. Here's a list of 77 use cases. https://blog.chain.link/44-ways-to-enhance-your-smart-contract-with-chainlink/ https://blog.chain.link/44-ways-to-enhance-your-smart-contra...

sfifs 5y ago

> . My initial viewpoint was why would scammers bother to fish for bitcoin when bank transfers/gift cards are a lower barrier Because bank transfers at least are inherently traceable. It just requires a sufficiently motivated government agency or prosecutor to go after them. On Gift cards, there's a lot publicity regarding scams and stores are increasingly flagging scams. Crypto for now at least is far safer from a scmer POV as it requires far higher level of investment and expertise to trace and unmask, so only the ultra big fish seem to get chased

LtdJorge 5y ago

The difference is crypto(graphy) is "old" and established, while crypto(currencies) and blockchain are new and trendy. It's like what happened with the JS frameworks, which have stabilized now a bit. Everyone wanted to create a new amazing project, everyone was lured into using X or Y framework because Z. But not many know a lot about them. Same with crypto, people see it's trendy and go in even if they lack all the technical knowledge around it. Thus, scams and hacks are everywhere.