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Pretending that there is no place for objective metrics in school is just as silly as pretending there is no place for objective metrics in society at large. G

Pretending that there is no place for objective metrics in school is just as silly as pretending there is no place for objective metrics in society at large. Grading may not be the perfect way to measure learning, but it is far superior than no objective metric at all. The fact is that schools exist to instill certain basic minimums of competency. We must have a way to measure whether or not those basic minimums are being met.

EricE 5y ago
>We must have a way to measure whether or not those basic minimums are being met. The teacher tells them. In written feedback. Far more nuanced and helpful than just a letter grade.
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  Perhaps you missed the "objective" part of "objective metric". If, for example, we want to determine a student's proficiency in algebra, it is far less useful to compare feedback from teachers with different standards, different abilities and different objectives than it is to compare the results from an objective test that is given to all students in all classes. Unlike standardized tests, teachers (and their assessments) vary wildly. The goals, expectations and abilities of an algebra teacher in Scranton, Ohio may (and often do) vary wildly from the goals, expectations and abilities of an algebra teacher in Juno, Alaska. Take ten different teachers and ask them to write an assessment of the same student, based on the same coursework, and you will get ten wildly different assessments. Teacher assessments may be useful for student feedback, but they are not useful for comparing the relative grasp of course information by different students.
  - zem 5y ago
    if (as people are claiming here) grades don't accurately measure proficiency, their being objective won't magically make them a better measure.
    - mattcwilson 5y ago
      If grades are utterly uncorrelated with proficiency, then you are correct. Is that your claim? Grades have zero information content, zero predictive power, over someone’s proficiency at the time the grades are given?
      - zem 5y ago
        no, my claim is that if grades are not a good measure of proficiency, it is irrelevant whether they are an objective measure or not. I have not studied the field well enough to know whether they actually are a good measure or not.
      - StanislavPetrov 5y ago
        It is an absurd claim on its face. I don't think tests are perfect, nor have I seen anyone make the claim that they are. But, for example, when it comes to measuring the proficiency of different students in different classrooms being taught algebra by different teachers each with their own method and style of evaluation, there is simply no replacement for a standardized test.
        musicale 5y ago
        > But, for example, when it comes to measuring the proficiency of different students in different classrooms being taught algebra by different teachers each with their own method and style of evaluation, there is simply no replacement for a standardized test. The problem really isn't tests per se, but the approach of ranking students by their scores and rewarding them or punishing them accordingly. The goal shouldn't be to stack rank students for some sort of pyramid reward system but rather to help as many students as possible to achieve mastery while preparing them for future success. A competitive environment with rewards and punishments may work for some students (usually the ones who are on top) but can discourage other students (usually the ones on the bottom) and destroy their interest in learning.
        chii 5y ago
  - blacklion 5y ago
    For algebra you could create standard "objective" test. Maybe. Though, I can imagine problems with such test too (think: Srinivasa Ramanujan). For creative writing? I don't think so. Note, all grading proponents speak about arithmetic, algebra and other such "mechanistic" subjects. Original submission speaks about writing. To me, it like comparing 100m sprint and Figure Skating. Results at former are precisely measurable. Results at latter is subjective, really.
- Bostonian 5y ago
  Colleges, rightly have a minimum GPA to graduate. You can average grades on a 4.0 scale but not written feedback. Employers may use GPA as a metric when hiring. Written feedback can supplement but not replace grades.
  - neon_electro 5y ago
    Does this invalidate the author's point, given that she still delivers a GPA-compatible grade at the end of the course?
    - Kwpolska 5y ago
      If you’re given letter grades throughout the course, you can easily predict your final grade, by computing an average (perhaps a weighted average, as specified in the course’s grading rules). In this system, you don’t know which grade your collection of vague and fuzzy feedbacks corresponds to until the very end.
  - musicale 5y ago
    > Colleges, rightly have a minimum GPA to graduate. Brown University does not have this requirement. Brown does not calculate GPAs, and courses may generally be taken S/NC, though courses must be passed in order to count toward graduation requirements. The other Ivies have traditional grading systems, but I'm not sure which ones have a minimum GPA requirement per se. Harvard seems to (satisfactory or B-) but Yale seems to require "successful completion" of coursework, though there is a minimum progress requirement (8 or 10 course credits per year) and you can fail out by failing three courses in two or three terms.

EricE 5y ago

>We must have a way to measure whether or not those basic minimums are being met. The teacher tells them. In written feedback. Far more nuanced and helpful than just a letter grade.

StanislavPetrov 5y ago
Perhaps you missed the "objective" part of "objective metric". If, for example, we want to determine a student's proficiency in algebra, it is far less useful to compare feedback from teachers with different standards, different abilities and different objectives than it is to compare the results from an objective test that is given to all students in all classes. Unlike standardized tests, teachers (and their assessments) vary wildly. The goals, expectations and abilities of an algebra teacher in Scranton, Ohio may (and often do) vary wildly from the goals, expectations and abilities of an algebra teacher in Juno, Alaska. Take ten different teachers and ask them to write an assessment of the same student, based on the same coursework, and you will get ten wildly different assessments. Teacher assessments may be useful for student feedback, but they are not useful for comparing the relative grasp of course information by different students.
- zem 5y ago
  if (as people are claiming here) grades don't accurately measure proficiency, their being objective won't magically make them a better measure.
  - mattcwilson 5y ago
    If grades are utterly uncorrelated with proficiency, then you are correct. Is that your claim? Grades have zero information content, zero predictive power, over someone’s proficiency at the time the grades are given?
    - zem 5y ago
      no, my claim is that if grades are not a good measure of proficiency, it is irrelevant whether they are an objective measure or not. I have not studied the field well enough to know whether they actually are a good measure or not.
    - StanislavPetrov 5y ago
      It is an absurd claim on its face. I don't think tests are perfect, nor have I seen anyone make the claim that they are. But, for example, when it comes to measuring the proficiency of different students in different classrooms being taught algebra by different teachers each with their own method and style of evaluation, there is simply no replacement for a standardized test.
      - musicale 5y ago
        > But, for example, when it comes to measuring the proficiency of different students in different classrooms being taught algebra by different teachers each with their own method and style of evaluation, there is simply no replacement for a standardized test. The problem really isn't tests per se, but the approach of ranking students by their scores and rewarding them or punishing them accordingly. The goal shouldn't be to stack rank students for some sort of pyramid reward system but rather to help as many students as possible to achieve mastery while preparing them for future success. A competitive environment with rewards and punishments may work for some students (usually the ones who are on top) but can discourage other students (usually the ones on the bottom) and destroy their interest in learning.
        chii 5y ago
- blacklion 5y ago
  For algebra you could create standard "objective" test. Maybe. Though, I can imagine problems with such test too (think: Srinivasa Ramanujan). For creative writing? I don't think so. Note, all grading proponents speak about arithmetic, algebra and other such "mechanistic" subjects. Original submission speaks about writing. To me, it like comparing 100m sprint and Figure Skating. Results at former are precisely measurable. Results at latter is subjective, really.
Bostonian 5y ago
Colleges, rightly have a minimum GPA to graduate. You can average grades on a 4.0 scale but not written feedback. Employers may use GPA as a metric when hiring. Written feedback can supplement but not replace grades.
- neon_electro 5y ago
  Does this invalidate the author's point, given that she still delivers a GPA-compatible grade at the end of the course?
  - Kwpolska 5y ago
    If you’re given letter grades throughout the course, you can easily predict your final grade, by computing an average (perhaps a weighted average, as specified in the course’s grading rules). In this system, you don’t know which grade your collection of vague and fuzzy feedbacks corresponds to until the very end.
- musicale 5y ago
  > Colleges, rightly have a minimum GPA to graduate. Brown University does not have this requirement. Brown does not calculate GPAs, and courses may generally be taken S/NC, though courses must be passed in order to count toward graduation requirements. The other Ivies have traditional grading systems, but I'm not sure which ones have a minimum GPA requirement per se. Harvard seems to (satisfactory or B-) but Yale seems to require "successful completion" of coursework, though there is a minimum progress requirement (8 or 10 course credits per year) and you can fail out by failing three courses in two or three terms.