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How does it disadvantage people that start from scratch though? Tests should be written in a way that everyone can pass them, with the knowledge thought in the

How does it disadvantage people that start from scratch though? Tests should be written in a way that everyone can pass them, with the knowledge thought in the course. If people that already have some related knowledge have an easier time studying, that's just life. How does it unfairly disadvantage you, if somebody else is already more skilled than you?

matt321 5y ago
>How does it disadvantage people that start from scratch though? In the same way that not being a genius is a disadvantage. Cant change it unless we handicap the smart people.
- jdkee 5y ago
  “ In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, loud radios that disrupt thoughts inside the ears of intelligent people, and heavy weights for the strong or athletic.” See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
conradludgate 5y ago
> earn lower grades at the start, which means they get a lower final average They get graded from the very beginning, not from a single final exam
- Double_a_92 5y ago
  So? Each small test should be written in a way that you can ace with what you learned so far in the course. If you are not willing to study that, that's your personal problem.
mckeed 5y ago
They are talking about assignments, not tests. It applies more to skill-based courses than knowledge-based ones. If you're writing C papers at the beginning and A papers at the end, should you get an A or B?
- Double_a_92 5y ago
  Why would you be writing C papers though? Either the tasks are badly designed, in a way that you can't properly solve them with what you have been thought so far... or you have all the possibility to write As in the beginning, even if you don't have prior knowledge.
asoneth 5y ago
The argument is that giving weight to the grades earned throughout the course may under-value students who made significant improvements. For example, take two students: Student A comes in barely meeting the prerequisites and struggles with low grades on initial tests and projects. They come to office hours, put in substantial effort, and eventually ace the final projects and tests. Student B comes in with substantial background experience and gets decent but not stellar grades on all tests and projects. Depending on how much weight is given to the final tests/projects student B may still end up with a higher grade despite the fact that they probably do not have as strong an understanding of the material as student A. I've had both kinds of students the handful of times I taught graduate-level seminars and it's one reason I weighted the final projects more heavily than initial projects. (Though I found grades on initial projects were still useful for other reasons.)
enragedcacti 5y ago
Imagine a course as teaching the content along a linear function from 0 to N understanding. With traditional grading we are effectively determining the area under the line for the given class, even though the goal of the class is to leave with a mastery of the content. Consider two students, one whose education path in the course is exponential and the other whose path is logarithmic where both paths intersect at the end of the course. According to traditional grading the logarithmic student would score far better in the course despite their knowledge being equal to the other student by the end. Which student would you rather be? who has more potential? Should the body of a course be treated like a series of 100m sprints or a marathon, and what is the net positive outcome through each approach?
MiddleEndian 5y ago
I think his point is that if Student A started with 50% knowledge and Student B started with 80% knowledge and by the end they both have 95% knowledge, Student A's grade for the course is penalized for the slow start even AFTER reaching mastery by the end. If Student A ends up only at 80% then so be it, but if they end up matched then they should end up with a similar grade.
orwin 5y ago
This very year, my sister started college after 5 years as a chef. Her math was shit, especially since it was already not her strongest subject in highschool, 5 years prior. She started very low and ended up average (she's going into biology). With help from me and Wolfram alpha (sry about that advertisement but it helped a lot). She was graded below average even though she showed more progress than at least half her class (since she started almost at the bottom and ended up in the middle). She doesn't care, but still think she is bad at math, when she just had poor teachers in HS and showed learning abilities at 23.

matt321 5y ago

>How does it disadvantage people that start from scratch though? In the same way that not being a genius is a disadvantage. Cant change it unless we handicap the smart people.

jdkee 5y ago
“ In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter, better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, loud radios that disrupt thoughts inside the ears of intelligent people, and heavy weights for the strong or athletic.” See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

conradludgate 5y ago

> earn lower grades at the start, which means they get a lower final average They get graded from the very beginning, not from a single final exam

Double_a_92 5y ago
So? Each small test should be written in a way that you can ace with what you learned so far in the course. If you are not willing to study that, that's your personal problem.

mckeed 5y ago

They are talking about assignments, not tests. It applies more to skill-based courses than knowledge-based ones. If you're writing C papers at the beginning and A papers at the end, should you get an A or B?

Double_a_92 5y ago
Why would you be writing C papers though? Either the tasks are badly designed, in a way that you can't properly solve them with what you have been thought so far... or you have all the possibility to write As in the beginning, even if you don't have prior knowledge.

asoneth 5y ago

The argument is that giving weight to the grades earned throughout the course may under-value students who made significant improvements. For example, take two students: Student A comes in barely meeting the prerequisites and struggles with low grades on initial tests and projects. They come to office hours, put in substantial effort, and eventually ace the final projects and tests. Student B comes in with substantial background experience and gets decent but not stellar grades on all tests and projects. Depending on how much weight is given to the final tests/projects student B may still end up with a higher grade despite the fact that they probably do not have as strong an understanding of the material as student A. I've had both kinds of students the handful of times I taught graduate-level seminars and it's one reason I weighted the final projects more heavily than initial projects. (Though I found grades on initial projects were still useful for other reasons.)

enragedcacti 5y ago

Imagine a course as teaching the content along a linear function from 0 to N understanding. With traditional grading we are effectively determining the area under the line for the given class, even though the goal of the class is to leave with a mastery of the content. Consider two students, one whose education path in the course is exponential and the other whose path is logarithmic where both paths intersect at the end of the course. According to traditional grading the logarithmic student would score far better in the course despite their knowledge being equal to the other student by the end. Which student would you rather be? who has more potential? Should the body of a course be treated like a series of 100m sprints or a marathon, and what is the net positive outcome through each approach?

MiddleEndian 5y ago

I think his point is that if Student A started with 50% knowledge and Student B started with 80% knowledge and by the end they both have 95% knowledge, Student A's grade for the course is penalized for the slow start even AFTER reaching mastery by the end. If Student A ends up only at 80% then so be it, but if they end up matched then they should end up with a similar grade.

orwin 5y ago

This very year, my sister started college after 5 years as a chef. Her math was shit, especially since it was already not her strongest subject in highschool, 5 years prior. She started very low and ended up average (she's going into biology). With help from me and Wolfram alpha (sry about that advertisement but it helped a lot). She was graded below average even though she showed more progress than at least half her class (since she started almost at the bottom and ended up in the middle). She doesn't care, but still think she is bad at math, when she just had poor teachers in HS and showed learning abilities at 23.