4 ms·

Yes and, I would add, not just respect the word 'no', but allow it to be expressed in the first place. Not 'maybe later'. Not 'remind me tomorrow'. Not 'manage

by tobr 5y ago

Yes and, I would add, not just respect the word 'no', but allow it to be expressed in the first place. Not 'maybe later'. Not 'remind me tomorrow'. Not 'manage options'. Just 'no'.

dsnr 5y ago
Modern UX: “ We respect your privacy! Do you agree to the use of cookies by this website? [x] Yes, all of them, with some extra on top. [] I would like to manually review and uncheck 859 individual checkboxes or be directed to some other 3rd party website to manage my settings there. Also, I would like these settings to expire after 7 days. Your personal data matters to us! (In ways you can’t imagine) “
- plebianRube 5y ago
  Put it in the pile with the other dark patterns.
- fsflover 5y ago
  > our personal data matters to us! (In ways you can’t imagine) No, "we value your privacy (at a very high price!)".
  - pwdisswordfish9 5y ago
    We value your privacy, that’s why we don’t give it to you for free
- dessant 5y ago
  That kind of consent popup is illegal in the EU, please report them to your local DPA. Rejecting data collection must be just as easy as accepting it. Also watch out for the use of "legitimate interest". I have seen banks trying to deprive customers of their right to refuse data collection, data sharing and marketing messages, claiming legitimate interest. https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/02/europe_iab_decision/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/02/europe_iab_decision/
  - dsnr 5y ago
    Except they left the “legitimate interest” loophole which gets abused by every website.
    - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
      As I understand it, the law provides reasonable limits on what is covered by its legitimate interest provision. Violation of the law is widespread because everyone knows the enforcement is a joke. See also a rare exception https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27060609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27060609
  - toxik 5y ago
    Funny, I’ve seen this on multiple government agency websites. This is in Sweden.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > please report them to your local DPA That requires an unreasonable amount of effort, and at least in the UK the DPA is completely useless, corrupt and/or incompetent.
- wengo314 5y ago
  i got even better one. do you accept your cookie policy ? [ yes | no, customize ] and after you go through all that : big green button [ continue with recommended settings ] smaller gray one [ save my choices ] guess what the green one does.
  - BoxOfRain 5y ago
    Or the equally obnoxious 'pressing consent is instant, pressing don't consent takes 5+ seconds to process'. This one is plausibly deniable too.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > This one is plausibly deniable too. How can it be? You do nothing for 5+ seconds or you save a ton of cookies instantly.
      - BoxOfRain 5y ago
        I think if it was in a court of law it'd be quite difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it's malicious unless it was literally something as obvious as `Thread.sleep(5000)` rather than the software just being badly written. I managed to introduce a really annoying and very specific timing issue a few weeks ago completely by accident for example, I reckon the accused would just say 'non-consent is processed differently to consent for $legacy_cruft reasons and it's quite slow, we're incompetent but we're not malicious'.
    - stanmancan 5y ago
      What about when you remove yourself from a mailing list. and they inform you it will take 10 business days to take effect?
- kawsper 5y ago
  It just feels like corporate weasel words. Wes Borg from Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie did a skit called "Internet Helpdesk" that included this bit: > Thank you for calling, your call is very important to us, please hold! https://youtu.be/1LLTsSnGWMI https://youtu.be/1LLTsSnGWMI
ethbr0 5y ago
The only thing that's going to make that happen is legally enshrining the permanence of "No" in law, as I believe parts of the GDPR do. Otherwise, if companies can covert >0% of users and therefore make >$0 with every re-ask, they'll just ask again. Large scale tech companies are predators when they want something. And they aren't going to magically stop being predators absent legal repercussions.
- nopenopenopeno 5y ago
  The only way that’s going to happen with an empirical world order (the United States) is either by full-fledged political revolution or war with a competing power. The American state prioritizes corporate interests by design. This is how industrial capitalism works and always has worked. And the EU is a dependent of the US, not an alternative to it. The Western neoliberal consensus of the past half-century has caused people to forget how power works, and nowhere is that more clear than in these utopian calls for regulation on Hacker News. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Capitalism or a society. Pick one.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Without derailing too far, how would you explain the existence of work hour limits and workplace protection regulations?
    - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
      All of them were won by fierce mass labor movements, which were then aggressively suppressed and wiped from the curriculums during the McCarthyist era, prior to the neoliberal era. And those hard-won protections have been eroding ever since. These things don’t just fall from the sky. Since you mention “work hour limits”, look up the Haymarket Strike in Chicago that won the 40 hour work week for private employees in the US, but not before police shot and killed 4 peacefully striking workers.
      - ethbr0 5y ago
sjmm1989 5y ago
Not to get too targeted at people here... but I need to get something off my chest on this topic, and your comment serves as a pretty decent launching point. I'm not going to be saying this to attack people, but I am going to be pretty stern and resolute in my language here. Fair warnings have been given. ------------ Tobr, and anyone concerned... For this kind of thing to occur, every single one of you out there would need to grow a backbone.(no offense, but its true.) I can't begin to start complaining about how many spineless fuckwits are out there letting these kinds of people like google get away with this all the fucking time, all because no one ever actually stands up for each other. Sure, they'll virtue signal when someone makes a scene, stuff like that. But when the chips are down and its time to fight, these cowards run. These spineless fuckwits that ruin our society is all of you. All of you who never stand up against your boss. All of you who never tell your teachers off when they are in the wrong. All of you who never tell your families to be better, because they'll just act worse. Or your supposed so called 'friends'. This problem is much deeper than just Google Tobr and crew reading this. This problem goes straight down to the heart of the reason as to why humanity just can't seem to catch a break in regards to evil people out there. Remember, google's only good advice ever, they screwed up. "Don't be Evil." They are evil, because all of you are gullible cowards; with only a few exceptions existing and not as a rule. And to those who figure "You're wrong!" PROVE IT. Get out there and do something useful for once in regards to this problem. I might believe you then.

by tobr 5y ago

Yes and, I would add, not just respect the word 'no', but allow it to be expressed in the first place. Not 'maybe later'. Not 'remind me tomorrow'. Not 'manage options'. Just 'no'.

dsnr 5y ago

Modern UX: “ We respect your privacy! Do you agree to the use of cookies by this website? [x] Yes, all of them, with some extra on top. [] I would like to manually review and uncheck 859 individual checkboxes or be directed to some other 3rd party website to manage my settings there. Also, I would like these settings to expire after 7 days. Your personal data matters to us! (In ways you can’t imagine) “

plebianRube 5y ago
Put it in the pile with the other dark patterns.
fsflover 5y ago
> our personal data matters to us! (In ways you can’t imagine) No, "we value your privacy (at a very high price!)".
- pwdisswordfish9 5y ago
  We value your privacy, that’s why we don’t give it to you for free
dessant 5y ago
That kind of consent popup is illegal in the EU, please report them to your local DPA. Rejecting data collection must be just as easy as accepting it. Also watch out for the use of "legitimate interest". I have seen banks trying to deprive customers of their right to refuse data collection, data sharing and marketing messages, claiming legitimate interest. https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/02/europe_iab_decision/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/02/europe_iab_decision/
- dsnr 5y ago
  Except they left the “legitimate interest” loophole which gets abused by every website.
  - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
    As I understand it, the law provides reasonable limits on what is covered by its legitimate interest provision. Violation of the law is widespread because everyone knows the enforcement is a joke. See also a rare exception https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27060609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27060609
- toxik 5y ago
  Funny, I’ve seen this on multiple government agency websites. This is in Sweden.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > please report them to your local DPA That requires an unreasonable amount of effort, and at least in the UK the DPA is completely useless, corrupt and/or incompetent.
wengo314 5y ago
i got even better one. do you accept your cookie policy ? [ yes | no, customize ] and after you go through all that : big green button [ continue with recommended settings ] smaller gray one [ save my choices ] guess what the green one does.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  Or the equally obnoxious 'pressing consent is instant, pressing don't consent takes 5+ seconds to process'. This one is plausibly deniable too.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > This one is plausibly deniable too. How can it be? You do nothing for 5+ seconds or you save a ton of cookies instantly.
    - BoxOfRain 5y ago
      I think if it was in a court of law it'd be quite difficult to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it's malicious unless it was literally something as obvious as `Thread.sleep(5000)` rather than the software just being badly written. I managed to introduce a really annoying and very specific timing issue a few weeks ago completely by accident for example, I reckon the accused would just say 'non-consent is processed differently to consent for $legacy_cruft reasons and it's quite slow, we're incompetent but we're not malicious'.
  - stanmancan 5y ago
    What about when you remove yourself from a mailing list. and they inform you it will take 10 business days to take effect?
kawsper 5y ago
It just feels like corporate weasel words. Wes Borg from Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie did a skit called "Internet Helpdesk" that included this bit: > Thank you for calling, your call is very important to us, please hold! https://youtu.be/1LLTsSnGWMI https://youtu.be/1LLTsSnGWMI

ethbr0 5y ago

The only thing that's going to make that happen is legally enshrining the permanence of "No" in law, as I believe parts of the GDPR do. Otherwise, if companies can covert >0% of users and therefore make >$0 with every re-ask, they'll just ask again. Large scale tech companies are predators when they want something. And they aren't going to magically stop being predators absent legal repercussions.

nopenopenopeno 5y ago
The only way that’s going to happen with an empirical world order (the United States) is either by full-fledged political revolution or war with a competing power. The American state prioritizes corporate interests by design. This is how industrial capitalism works and always has worked. And the EU is a dependent of the US, not an alternative to it. The Western neoliberal consensus of the past half-century has caused people to forget how power works, and nowhere is that more clear than in these utopian calls for regulation on Hacker News. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Capitalism or a society. Pick one.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Without derailing too far, how would you explain the existence of work hour limits and workplace protection regulations?
  - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
    All of them were won by fierce mass labor movements, which were then aggressively suppressed and wiped from the curriculums during the McCarthyist era, prior to the neoliberal era. And those hard-won protections have been eroding ever since. These things don’t just fall from the sky. Since you mention “work hour limits”, look up the Haymarket Strike in Chicago that won the 40 hour work week for private employees in the US, but not before police shot and killed 4 peacefully striking workers.
    - ethbr0 5y ago

sjmm1989 5y ago

Not to get too targeted at people here... but I need to get something off my chest on this topic, and your comment serves as a pretty decent launching point. I'm not going to be saying this to attack people, but I am going to be pretty stern and resolute in my language here. Fair warnings have been given. ------------ Tobr, and anyone concerned... For this kind of thing to occur, every single one of you out there would need to grow a backbone.(no offense, but its true.) I can't begin to start complaining about how many spineless fuckwits are out there letting these kinds of people like google get away with this all the fucking time, all because no one ever actually stands up for each other. Sure, they'll virtue signal when someone makes a scene, stuff like that. But when the chips are down and its time to fight, these cowards run. These spineless fuckwits that ruin our society is all of you. All of you who never stand up against your boss. All of you who never tell your teachers off when they are in the wrong. All of you who never tell your families to be better, because they'll just act worse. Or your supposed so called 'friends'. This problem is much deeper than just Google Tobr and crew reading this. This problem goes straight down to the heart of the reason as to why humanity just can't seem to catch a break in regards to evil people out there. Remember, google's only good advice ever, they screwed up. "Don't be Evil." They are evil, because all of you are gullible cowards; with only a few exceptions existing and not as a rule. And to those who figure "You're wrong!" PROVE IT. Get out there and do something useful for once in regards to this problem. I might believe you then.