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Today Google is turning on tracking for many users that previously turned it off

481 points by starsep 5y ago

davidkuennen 5y ago
Interesing. Today I released the new version of my app without Google Analytics or Crashlytics.
eimrine 5y ago
- blunte 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)
- giancarlostoro 5y ago
  My favorite addition to that quote: Serverless is actually servers[0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20068598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20068598
  - teekert 5y ago
    I agree "serverless" is misleading but it just means "no server to administer".
    - giancarlostoro 5y ago
      Yeah I know, I mean I like serverless for its niche use cases, if you're already in the cloud, might as well take full advantage of the tools made available to you.
  - o_m 5y ago
    Wireless is actual connected to a box with wires
- mrjin 5y ago
  Helping people by against their wills, well done Google!!!??????????
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    It's more that because previously users weren't queried for the setting one way or the other, they have no idea what people's wills are.
    - philovivero 5y ago
      Pretty disingenuous. You can ask a representative sample, then assume people follow that. If you ask a few hundred people and 99% say they don't want it, then you make the default that they do want it, you're doing it "wrong." I say "wrong" because actually their optimisation isn't doing what people want, it's whatever makes them money, and this makes them more money. "the people's wills" doesn't figure into the decision at all. So why are you even bringing it up?
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        I'd bet money that if Google polled 100 Workspace accounts, they'd find the admins hadn't turned this tracking off. So they'd arrive at the same conclusion we're observing them to arrive at.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
spupe 5y ago
Create a massively adopted product -> Start breaking your product to milk profitability -> Ignore user input and feedback, override their stated preferences with yours The Microsoft playbook, currently in play at Google.
- blunte 5y ago
  This is the "big laggard capitalist corporation" playbook.
  - blunte 5y ago
    People want to disagree, that's fine. But it's such a common pattern of behavior in less regulated environments. There are many variants, but the common one is this: 1. upstart innovator, filling a need; scrappy, hungry, motivated. 2. reaching the market, making waves, building a base. still same mood as #1. 3. "sudden wealth". ICO, big investment, buyout, f-u money, whatever. some people leave, some stay and lose their hunger, and some people ascend into management and play the long (money) game. 4. quarterly earnings per share concerns top all others; executives know their pay is based on board considerations and appearing to keep shareholders happy. innovation takes a deep sideline as short-term and protectionist approaches prevail. 5. other companies like this one when it was on steps 1-2 appear; threats are real, but board and shareholders are slow to catch on; company is large, and it has lobbyists. monopolistic behaviors are the easiest route to maintaining dominance. stamp out competition before it hits the public radar. keep the quarterly EPS on target. keep the bonuses. 6. predictably this cannot continue, and the company falters. it is embarrassed by a hungrier company. execs leave and upgrade their positions in other similar companies. sharholders "suffer" with stagnant share prices. 7. maybe. company pivots, reinvents itself actually or in appearance. cycle either starts anew-ish, or a publicity campaign convinces the public investors that it has (and new investment should arrive). This is the state of American capitalist corporate behavior. Downvotes are fine; they simply indicate how ignorant (unfortunately) the latest generation of HN readers are. I'm near the point of not caring. The world can burn, the ignorant masses can be under the boot of corrupt people, and anyone remaining can die with far less than they hoped they would have. I would like to help prevent that, but celebration of ignorance has become so great that there may be no recovery.
KaiserPro 5y ago
I do love the double standards in tech. Can you imagine the uproar if Microsoft did something like this. for all users of active directory enable tracking for all action anywhere on the web. Even better its not going to share the "helpful tracking" with the admin. (yes teams has spyware, but thats admin configurable) If Facebook even tried half of this, there would be literal shitfits.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > If Facebook even tried half of this, there would be literal shitfits. Facebook will just track you without explicitly letting you know by turning something back on.
- rez9x 5y ago
  People are surprised when I tell them I don't use most Google products. Unfortunately, I still use YouTube, as that's where I consume most of my media / entertainment. The fallacy that other search engines don't work as well or that Gmail is the best email really inhibits 'normies' from escaping Google. I'll admit, Google Maps is a great service, but you can still get from A to B without it. I just print out all my navigation on MapQuest (/s).
  - nathias 5y ago
    a lot of youtube can be avoided with odysee and browser plugin that redirects you from youtube to their version if one exists
    - Nextgrid 5y ago
      Invidious can be used to proxy YouTube.
  - cyberlurker 5y ago
    Apple Maps has significantly improved in recent years. I actually get better navigation most of the time from it. That was not the case 5 years ago. And in other countries Google Maps can sometimes be useless compared to local competitors.
cube00 5y ago
Previous discussion (2 months, 442 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30171800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30171800
NavinF 5y ago
This is spam. It cites an HN post from 2 months ago as a source and doesn’t add anything new to that discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30171800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30171800 tl;dr the “Web & App Activity” setting got moved from google workspace admin settings to each user’s settings. The “many users” who toggled this setting are all google workspace admins. Too bad that doesn’t make for a good story.
- lupire 5y ago
  It's a sad commentary to HN, that the only accurate comment is at the bottom.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    It would be slightly nearer the top, if you hadn't written essentially the same comment three times in this discussion.
- owlninja 5y ago
  And their advice is to switch to their service - shame this made it to the top of HN.
Majestic121 5y ago
The relevant Google link : https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328?hl=en One tidbit from the link, I don't know if it changes the narrative much or not : > Note: Google never uses your data in Google Workspace core services for advertising.
- HeckFeck 5y ago
  I really want to believe that owing to the prevalance of Google Workspace at every job I've worked, but my cynical side doesn't believe it. I would not be surprised if they twist the definition of "advertising" or just use your private data in other unstated ways. We can assume this is just legal coverage for them. For you, cunning wordplay to make you believe what they want so you don't act in your own interest. Honesty is too much to ask when you make your billions from tracking and advertising.
  - lupire 5y ago
    Why has no one sued for violation of contract? Even if Google wins, it would be a big PR event.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      Because they really don’t use that information for advertising. They even stopped scanning @gmail account email for ad purposes in 2018. Advertising still happens outside of these core services, eg via cross site tracking in the web browser.
  - tatersolid 5y ago
    > owing to the prevalance of Google Workspace at every job I've worked This frightens me. I may have a skewed vision from 25 years in the banking industry; do real functional businesses (not VC money fires) actually pay Google to harvest their data and not deliver inbound email?
    - HeckFeck 5y ago
blakesterz 5y ago
How do I turn Google Workspace search history on and off? You can enable or disable Google Workspace search history: Go to the My Activity page. Click Other Google activity and then Google Workspace search history. Click On or Off. That's from: https://apps.google.com/supportwidget/articlehome?article_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.google.com%2Fa%2Fanswer%2F11194328&product_context=11194328&product_name=UnuFlow&trigger_context=a https://apps.google.com/supportwidget/articlehome?article_ur... But I don't see any "Google Workspace search history" on mine.
- avsteele 5y ago
  Same here. I checked when they announced, and now today. As well, no dice. Maybe it will be there tomorrow? Bizarre
- tgv 5y ago
  Re: Cannot find Google Workspace search history Thank you for contacting us. We will get back to you within 10 working days. With the utmost respect, The Google support team === Re: Re: Cannot find Google Workspace search history Thank you for submitting an issue. Your feedback is very important to us. Unfortunately, we cannot determine the nature of your problem. Could you reply to this email and attach a screen shot for each step, and include your account details: your full name, physical address, email address, telephone number, and Google ISID. Glad to be of assistance, The Google support team === Re: Re: Re: Cannot find Google Workspace search history Thanks for your patience. We have looked at your issue, and cannot find anything irregular. Please use a search engine (https://google.com https://google.com) to look for more information. Always at your service, The Google support team === Re: Re: Re: Re: Cannot find Google Workspace search history Thank your for filing a complaint. We appreciate it, and we learn from valuable input as yours. The support team has concluded that the issue was an outdated text on the support portal. This will be resolved within 10 working days. Unfortunately, the deployment team will deploy a new version in the mean time, which might not be compatible with our currently approved support documentation. Updating the new documentation could take 4 to 6 weeks. This ticket is now closed. Please feel free to open a new ticket if you run into another problem. Do not contact us for the same problem. Our legal counsil will contact you if you keep harassing us. With the highest regards, The Google support team
HeckFeck 5y ago
If user preference was their concern (and GWorkspace users were really pining to get all that wonderful tracking enabled) then they could've simply implemented an individual option to override the admin's setting. But no, this is once again a pathetic smokescreen where the actual motives are obfuscated and the users lose again.
evancoop 5y ago
At some point, society will have a broader conversation about respecting the word 'no.' Without mentioning a different context explicitly, we all recognize the grotesque immorality when 'no' must be stated repeatedly (and even then, the requests do not cease). Google (and other large tech companies) require a level of vigilance from their users in boundary-setting that would be unacceptable in almost any other context.
- tobr 5y ago
  Yes and, I would add, not just respect the word 'no', but allow it to be expressed in the first place. Not 'maybe later'. Not 'remind me tomorrow'. Not 'manage options'. Just 'no'.
  - dsnr 5y ago
    Modern UX: “ We respect your privacy! Do you agree to the use of cookies by this website? [x] Yes, all of them, with some extra on top. [] I would like to manually review and uncheck 859 individual checkboxes or be directed to some other 3rd party website to manage my settings there. Also, I would like these settings to expire after 7 days. Your personal data matters to us! (In ways you can’t imagine) “
    - plebianRube 5y ago
      Put it in the pile with the other dark patterns.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > our personal data matters to us! (In ways you can’t imagine) No, "we value your privacy (at a very high price!)".
      - pwdisswordfish9 5y ago
        We value your privacy, that’s why we don’t give it to you for free
    - 5y ago
filereaper 5y ago
Does anyone know what's happening at Google? Have they grown to the point that the huge profits from web search aren't enough to sustain them or something? I'm seeing Google ratchet up its monetization across all aspects: - YouTube plays mandatory multiple ads - Frontpage search is full of ads - Gmail used to have some Infinity plus storage plan but now after 15gb is used you can't receive email. And they're using Photos towards this quota. Nothing against paying for services but there's a noticeable and very aggressive drive towards lockin and monetization of its users. Far more than before, so what happened to Google that's causing this?
- Ralfp 5y ago
  Did they really make money off search? I was always under impression that search was only a gateway to their services ecosystem and its that what makes them money.
  - jorvi 5y ago
    Search and ads are intrinsically linked and the vast majority of their profit comes from ads.
  - cableshaft 5y ago
    "Search is Google’s most lucrative unit. In 2020, the company generated $104 billion in “search and other” revenues, making up 71% of Google’s ad revenue and 57% of Alphabet’s total revenue. That “search and other” figure includes revenue generated on Google’s search properties, along with ads on other Google-owned properties like Gmail, Maps and the Google Play app store." https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/how-does-google-make-money-advertising-business-breakdown-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/how-does-google-make-money-a... It pays enough that they're willing to pay Apple up to $15 billion a year so Apple doesn't make their own search engine and leave Google as the default search engine on Safari: https://gadgets360.com/apps/news/google-apple-default-search-engine-safari-pay-usd-15-billion-iphone-ipad-mac-2021-microsoft-bing-2520582 https://gadgets360.com/apps/news/google-apple-default-search...
    - 5y ago
boopmaster 5y ago
Google’s most disruptive products like search and mail are over 20 years old now. Google moved on from its values of by-nerds-for-nerds and ethos of do no evil. I’m not the same person I was 20 years ago either. I upped my standards so up yours: screw yougle. Uninstall that spyware trash and move on. Edit: Google search itself is highly invasive nowadays. Try using it behind a VPN or in private browsing mode. It’s not accessible unless you agree to let Google raid your cookie jar.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
avsteele 5y ago
I still can't figure out how to turn this off! Can anyone tell me? If I read: https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328#zippy=%2Chow-do https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328#zippy=%2Chow-do... Then the instructions say: > You can enable or disable Google Workspace search history: > * Go to the My Activity page. > * Click Other Google activity and then Google Workspace search history. > * Click On or Off. If I go to: https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity Yes, I can find "Other Google activity" (check the top left hamburger menu if you don't see it) But inside this, there is NO "Google Workspace search history". How are you supposed to do this? I'm definitely logged in as my workspace account.
- haunter 5y ago
  Same here, no Google Workspace search history
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
thenerdhead 5y ago
User "choice" should persist through any product's development just like their private information. It should be protected by law. How often this happens in big tech products to re-establish user telemetry to "help" said company build better product is almost satire at this point. No means no. It does not mean I have to say no again in the future.
tambourine_man 5y ago
“No” is just a decorative toggle for Google at this point. I have to set on a weekly basis no auto play on thumbnail hover, no auto play next video when the current one is over, I don't want this user as my main Gmail account, etc. In fact, user input is probably only regarded on the million/billion scale. I quote strings on search, ask for suggestions to be only in the languages that I speak rather than my geolocation… all bluntly ignored. The best one can hope for these days is to add its own grain of sand to the pile to slightly nudge the algorithm.
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  Out of curiosity, are you using uBlock or tossing your Google cookies frequently? Plugins like uBlock interfere with a function of a web page in ways that are very hard to predict by page developers, so there's no telling what's going on if you have that enabled (maybe it thinks a request to a server to fetch your settings is going to an ad server and blocking it). And some of those settings, of course, are stored locally in cookies. > million / billion scale That is true. "Don't optimize for the uncommon case" is something I've had a Googler tell me as a software best practice.
  - fluoridation 5y ago
    "Don't optimize for the uncommon case" and "don't handle the uncommon case" are different, though. Google seems to go for the latter, more often than not.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      The thing being optimized is developer time.
  - boredumb 5y ago
    "Don't optimize for the uncommon case" A fun way to ensure the case you focused on and optimize for is always the most common case since the other use cases are suboptimal and frustrating.
  - 5y ago
louissan 5y ago
ok how to turn off this crap?
127 5y ago
How do you check your Youtube subs without getting the cookie and Google knowing exactly who you are on each of their sites? Have to switch back to Firefox to get containerization?
- qwertox 5y ago
  How is this related? You don't have to switch to Firefox, you can create another profile in Chrome where you allow all the cookies and use that for Email and YouTube subscription checking. Isn't using multiple profiles a normal thing to do?
jsnell 5y ago
The article seems intentionally misleading. It's implying that if the organization disabled the "Web & App Activity" setting will not carry over to the user. That's not what the support page says though: > If you disabled Web & App Activity in the Admin console, it is turned off for Google Workspace users. Users can turn it on if they want. So nobody will be tracked on the web who wasn't previously. The setting that will be turned on is just the one controlling search history within Gmail, Docs, Drive etc. (But it does seem surprising that they didn't just show a option dialogue on the next load of a Workspace app and ask the user to choose.)
- jiggyjace 5y ago
  Yeah I was just about to ask because I went through my Google Workspace account and tracking is still turned off even though it's already March 29...
- tedivm 5y ago
  To be fair, it seems like Google backtracked on this due to the negative attention. All of their original statements about this made it clear they would be tracking people after the change, but in the two months since the original announcement they must have changed their minds.
  - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
    It's more likely that they are now tracing users anyway, they just lie they don't.
  - taneq 5y ago
    > due to the negative attention They didn't backtrack and they didn't change their minds. They decided to wait a little while until attention on this particular invasion had subsided before perpetrating it as they had always planned.
  - jsnell 5y ago
    I don't think that's true. The 2022-02-02 copy of the support page on archive.org shows the same answer: https://web.archive.org/web/20220202033903/https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328#zippy=%2Cwhat-happens-for-my-users-if-i-dont-do-anything https://web.archive.org/web/20220202033903/https://support.g... (That's the first version of that page on archive.org, and also seems to be the day this was announced based on the previous HN discussion.)
JCM9 5y ago
Google has seriously struggled to be financially successful in anything other than selling information about you to others (via “targeted” ads). That means that they’re going to be increasingly desperate to maintain their data collection abilities. No obviously means no, but until they are forced to Google will keep playing these “well we assume you really probably do want this so we’re just going to go back and mark you down for a yes again, but you can say no again if you’d like” games. Of course the reason they do this is they hope people don’t notice and/or forget to just keep saying no everytime this happens. Don’t be evil? This is evil.
- leksak 5y ago
  > No obviously means no If only YouTube understood this
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
You can dislike this, you can call it a dark pattern, but the title is inaccurate: > Google is changing its Workspace Settings, including a change that activates activity tracking for all users of Google Workspace accounts even if the organization's admin disabled activity tracking for all users previously. The users never turned off tracking. Their organization admin did so for them. Now users have to go do it themselves (edit: they may not even have to do that per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30841812 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30841812). This is significantly less bad than what the title implies. Meanwhile, there are companies that actually just forget user tracking preferences. Amazon for example silently turns browsing history for my account back on every time their cookie expires. Why does Amazon store this as a cookie rather than as a persistent account setting? Great question...
- falcolas 5y ago
  It was turned off by the entity paying for the service, and that choice is being ignored in the ever growing search for more personal data. Title’s perfectly accurate IMO.
  - shafyy 5y ago
    Exactly, they should default to turning it off, not on.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > The users never turned off tracking. Their organization admin did so for them. Now users have to go do it themselves. In some countries, this may put the company in a rough spot legally, and it seems fairly clear the motivation is "we at Google want more tracking, even if the organization paying for the service does not".
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > This is scummy, I’m struggling to understand why this is even scummy. This specific activity tracking isn’t even used for advertising like many are assuming (Source: https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328?hl=en ). Everything about this article and what it’s implying feels like it was carefully crafted to generate maximum outrage while omitting all of the relevant details that might clarify what’s happening. This article and headline were basically crafted to be ragebait, and it appears to have succeeded.
antattack 5y ago
Does this include student google accounts provided by schools?
unethical_ban 5y ago
>Imagine going into a restaurant and saying "I really don’t enjoy a medium rare steak please make it medium well" and having the chef say "ok fine but medium rare steak is the best way to enjoy it so I made it medium rare despite what you previously explicitly told me enjoy". Alternative: Imagine people expect the waiter to always know what they want when they walk in the door and say "I want steak with the usual" but the waiter doesn't know what the usual is. And it's because you, the customer (or your "dad", the workspace admin), has told the waiter not to remember you once you leave the restaurant each time. You don't really know you did this, you just had some friend from the EFF tell you "Waiters should never remember you!" and so you went along with it. People probably expect Google to "just know" what they're looking for when you search, and search quality goes down when search history can't be used to refine results. So Google is putting it back in peoples' faces saying "I am pretty sure you want this on, and with Workspaces, we aren't using it for ads, just to make the product better". There is my charitable reading of it.
- mellavora 5y ago
  >Imagine going into a restaurant and saying "I really don’t enjoy a medium rare steak please make it medium well" and having the chef say "ok fine but medium rare steak is the best way to enjoy it so I made it medium rare despite what you previously explicitly told me enjoy". This actually happened to me, and it is how I learned that "well done" steak does not mean the same as "well done" on an exam. I've been enjoying rare to medium rare ever since.
KingOfCoders 5y ago
"What is more, admins can no longer control this setting for their users, but all users need to invidually toggle the tracking off again." Side tracking, to me it would seem legal for an admin to turn tracking off, but would it be legal forn and admin to turn tracking on?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thesuitonym 5y ago
  That's a great question, and I don't have a general answer--maybe there isn't one--but in this instance, the admin wasn't turning the tracking on or off, but was making the service available or not. If the service was turned on, it was up to the user to turn tracking on or off.
uhtred 5y ago
Problem is most people don't care. Most people couldn't give a flying f** if their data is being collected, as long as they get all these free services. They don't know or care how much it costs to build/run/maintain things like instagram and youtube, which to them are just "websites" or "apps" on their phone, and therefore don't question how google/fb etc funds them. They need to be hit round the face with the truth, like if they saw someone at their home window watching them. They need to be shocked into realizing what is happening.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
turtle_ 5y ago
I recently left Google after spending a few years there. Internally Google puts a huge premium on user safety and privacy. So much so that shipping anything requires getting changes through a regulatory process to safeguard users. Google doesn’t do a good job of marketing its process. In some domains Google does explicitly use user behavior to drive revenue, so from the outside it becomes easy to spin changes like this as encroaching on user privacy, but I don’t see that here. I see something like a PM who is trying to surface some more functionality to users directly, and some engineers who spent far too long with lawyers to get sign off on this change. It may be fashionable to sensationalize product changes like this, but the truth is often more mundane. Edit: found a comment from the PM themselves in a previous discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30174304 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30174304
- seanw444 5y ago
  While it may not be intentionally sinister, it's a precedent I can't agree with. Been on a journey to self-host as much of my stuff as I can to avoid this crap.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  > It may be fashionable to sensationalize product changes like this, but the truth is often more mundane. A company which relies on user data for its revenue using user data seems like a mundane explanation to me.
- titzer 5y ago
  > Internally Google puts a huge premium on user safety and privacy. It's Orwellian doublethink. Google will go miles out of its way to convince itself it gives a damn about user privacy, when it obviously does not give a damn about user privacy. Google always finds a way to justify studying users like lab rats. For Google, they believe that they are inherently in your circle of trust and that they are allowed to know anything they want to know about you because they are by default, up to nothing but good. Google fundamentally does not understand that keeping things private means keeping things private from Google. If you aren't paying Google, then they are harvesting your attention, activities, preferences, and future spending habits to eventually sell to the highest bidder.
endisneigh 5y ago
Peoples hatred of google is so strong straight up spam is making it to the top lol. The source cited in the article is HN itself and markets its own product as an alternative.
- juanani 5y ago
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  Does Google not deserve the hate they've cultivated through their actions over the years?
  - judge2020 5y ago
    This is about a specific Workspace change that allows administrators to turn off tracking for products that fall under the 'no ads' category separately from those that don't (other non-core services[0]). Before, turning off this setting disabled many useful features in Gmail as well as disabled tracking for org users for the stuff you care about. That's why this is spam - it's twisting this change into something they can use to market their 'encrypted email/calendar' product. 0: https://workspace.google.com/terms/user_features.html https://workspace.google.com/terms/user_features.html
vishnugupta 5y ago
Every day I feel more vindicated about moving to Apple's ecosystem 2 years ago. Their only two services I use are YouTube and Google Maps; both on safari so no tracking. I'll give Apple maps a try.
- ectospheno 5y ago
  I am still using YouTube and YouTube TV. Just last month I finally moved email and deleted my workspace account. Pretty happy so far. I only use Apple Maps in the US and have been happy. If you haven’t used it lately then it is worth another try.
MR4D 5y ago
Page 11 of this document [0] is a good place to start. Clearly people have strong opinions on this topic, so now is a great time to review your changes. [0] - https://services.google.com/fh/files/misc/google_workspace_data_protection_guide_en_dec2020.pdf https://services.google.com/fh/files/misc/google_workspace_d...
- dylan604 5y ago
  Seems hard to believe that a document dated December 2020 would still be valid. Maybe not everything in it has changed, but to think that nothing has changed from a company like Googs is odd as well. Hell, how many offered services that would be listed in that document has Googs killed in the years since the ink dried on the document?
  - MR4D 5y ago
    It's the first result in a Google search, so if it isn't, then that would be pretty ironic. Still...
dmix 5y ago
If it's a good helpful feature to have activity tracking then tell the user... let them decide if they want it.
Jenz 5y ago
There are plenty of reasons to dislike Google, and this does sound in character; but something is off about this website.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
paulcarroty 5y ago
Great! Android is your personal little spy, glad I ditched it and hope many people will figure it out.
- tut-urut-utut 5y ago
  Ditched for what? It's not like iOS in an order of magnitude better, maybe just a bit or two.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

481 points by starsep 5y ago

davidkuennen 5y ago

Interesing. Today I released the new version of my app without Google Analytics or Crashlytics.

eimrine 5y ago

blunte 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)
giancarlostoro 5y ago
My favorite addition to that quote: Serverless is actually servers[0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20068598 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20068598
- teekert 5y ago
  I agree "serverless" is misleading but it just means "no server to administer".
  - giancarlostoro 5y ago
    Yeah I know, I mean I like serverless for its niche use cases, if you're already in the cloud, might as well take full advantage of the tools made available to you.
- o_m 5y ago
  Wireless is actual connected to a box with wires
mrjin 5y ago
Helping people by against their wills, well done Google!!!??????????
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  It's more that because previously users weren't queried for the setting one way or the other, they have no idea what people's wills are.
  - philovivero 5y ago
    Pretty disingenuous. You can ask a representative sample, then assume people follow that. If you ask a few hundred people and 99% say they don't want it, then you make the default that they do want it, you're doing it "wrong." I say "wrong" because actually their optimisation isn't doing what people want, it's whatever makes them money, and this makes them more money. "the people's wills" doesn't figure into the decision at all. So why are you even bringing it up?
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      I'd bet money that if Google polled 100 Workspace accounts, they'd find the admins hadn't turned this tracking off. So they'd arrive at the same conclusion we're observing them to arrive at.
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spupe 5y ago

Create a massively adopted product -> Start breaking your product to milk profitability -> Ignore user input and feedback, override their stated preferences with yours The Microsoft playbook, currently in play at Google.

blunte 5y ago
This is the "big laggard capitalist corporation" playbook.
- blunte 5y ago
  People want to disagree, that's fine. But it's such a common pattern of behavior in less regulated environments. There are many variants, but the common one is this: 1. upstart innovator, filling a need; scrappy, hungry, motivated. 2. reaching the market, making waves, building a base. still same mood as #1. 3. "sudden wealth". ICO, big investment, buyout, f-u money, whatever. some people leave, some stay and lose their hunger, and some people ascend into management and play the long (money) game. 4. quarterly earnings per share concerns top all others; executives know their pay is based on board considerations and appearing to keep shareholders happy. innovation takes a deep sideline as short-term and protectionist approaches prevail. 5. other companies like this one when it was on steps 1-2 appear; threats are real, but board and shareholders are slow to catch on; company is large, and it has lobbyists. monopolistic behaviors are the easiest route to maintaining dominance. stamp out competition before it hits the public radar. keep the quarterly EPS on target. keep the bonuses. 6. predictably this cannot continue, and the company falters. it is embarrassed by a hungrier company. execs leave and upgrade their positions in other similar companies. sharholders "suffer" with stagnant share prices. 7. maybe. company pivots, reinvents itself actually or in appearance. cycle either starts anew-ish, or a publicity campaign convinces the public investors that it has (and new investment should arrive). This is the state of American capitalist corporate behavior. Downvotes are fine; they simply indicate how ignorant (unfortunately) the latest generation of HN readers are. I'm near the point of not caring. The world can burn, the ignorant masses can be under the boot of corrupt people, and anyone remaining can die with far less than they hoped they would have. I would like to help prevent that, but celebration of ignorance has become so great that there may be no recovery.

KaiserPro 5y ago

I do love the double standards in tech. Can you imagine the uproar if Microsoft did something like this. for all users of active directory enable tracking for all action anywhere on the web. Even better its not going to share the "helpful tracking" with the admin. (yes teams has spyware, but thats admin configurable) If Facebook even tried half of this, there would be literal shitfits.

Nextgrid 5y ago
> If Facebook even tried half of this, there would be literal shitfits. Facebook will just track you without explicitly letting you know by turning something back on.
rez9x 5y ago
People are surprised when I tell them I don't use most Google products. Unfortunately, I still use YouTube, as that's where I consume most of my media / entertainment. The fallacy that other search engines don't work as well or that Gmail is the best email really inhibits 'normies' from escaping Google. I'll admit, Google Maps is a great service, but you can still get from A to B without it. I just print out all my navigation on MapQuest (/s).
- nathias 5y ago
  a lot of youtube can be avoided with odysee and browser plugin that redirects you from youtube to their version if one exists
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    Invidious can be used to proxy YouTube.
- cyberlurker 5y ago
  Apple Maps has significantly improved in recent years. I actually get better navigation most of the time from it. That was not the case 5 years ago. And in other countries Google Maps can sometimes be useless compared to local competitors.

cube00 5y ago

Previous discussion (2 months, 442 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30171800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30171800

NavinF 5y ago

This is spam. It cites an HN post from 2 months ago as a source and doesn’t add anything new to that discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30171800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30171800 tl;dr the “Web & App Activity” setting got moved from google workspace admin settings to each user’s settings. The “many users” who toggled this setting are all google workspace admins. Too bad that doesn’t make for a good story.

lupire 5y ago
It's a sad commentary to HN, that the only accurate comment is at the bottom.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  It would be slightly nearer the top, if you hadn't written essentially the same comment three times in this discussion.
owlninja 5y ago
And their advice is to switch to their service - shame this made it to the top of HN.

Majestic121 5y ago

The relevant Google link : https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328?hl=en One tidbit from the link, I don't know if it changes the narrative much or not : > Note: Google never uses your data in Google Workspace core services for advertising.

HeckFeck 5y ago
I really want to believe that owing to the prevalance of Google Workspace at every job I've worked, but my cynical side doesn't believe it. I would not be surprised if they twist the definition of "advertising" or just use your private data in other unstated ways. We can assume this is just legal coverage for them. For you, cunning wordplay to make you believe what they want so you don't act in your own interest. Honesty is too much to ask when you make your billions from tracking and advertising.
- lupire 5y ago
  Why has no one sued for violation of contract? Even if Google wins, it would be a big PR event.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Because they really don’t use that information for advertising. They even stopped scanning @gmail account email for ad purposes in 2018. Advertising still happens outside of these core services, eg via cross site tracking in the web browser.
- tatersolid 5y ago
  > owing to the prevalance of Google Workspace at every job I've worked This frightens me. I may have a skewed vision from 25 years in the banking industry; do real functional businesses (not VC money fires) actually pay Google to harvest their data and not deliver inbound email?
  - HeckFeck 5y ago

blakesterz 5y ago

How do I turn Google Workspace search history on and off? You can enable or disable Google Workspace search history: Go to the My Activity page. Click Other Google activity and then Google Workspace search history. Click On or Off. That's from: https://apps.google.com/supportwidget/articlehome?article_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsupport.google.com%2Fa%2Fanswer%2F11194328&product_context=11194328&product_name=UnuFlow&trigger_context=a https://apps.google.com/supportwidget/articlehome?article_ur... But I don't see any "Google Workspace search history" on mine.

avsteele 5y ago
Same here. I checked when they announced, and now today. As well, no dice. Maybe it will be there tomorrow? Bizarre
tgv 5y ago
Re: Cannot find Google Workspace search history Thank you for contacting us. We will get back to you within 10 working days. With the utmost respect, The Google support team === Re: Re: Cannot find Google Workspace search history Thank you for submitting an issue. Your feedback is very important to us. Unfortunately, we cannot determine the nature of your problem. Could you reply to this email and attach a screen shot for each step, and include your account details: your full name, physical address, email address, telephone number, and Google ISID. Glad to be of assistance, The Google support team === Re: Re: Re: Cannot find Google Workspace search history Thanks for your patience. We have looked at your issue, and cannot find anything irregular. Please use a search engine (https://google.com https://google.com) to look for more information. Always at your service, The Google support team === Re: Re: Re: Re: Cannot find Google Workspace search history Thank your for filing a complaint. We appreciate it, and we learn from valuable input as yours. The support team has concluded that the issue was an outdated text on the support portal. This will be resolved within 10 working days. Unfortunately, the deployment team will deploy a new version in the mean time, which might not be compatible with our currently approved support documentation. Updating the new documentation could take 4 to 6 weeks. This ticket is now closed. Please feel free to open a new ticket if you run into another problem. Do not contact us for the same problem. Our legal counsil will contact you if you keep harassing us. With the highest regards, The Google support team

HeckFeck 5y ago

If user preference was their concern (and GWorkspace users were really pining to get all that wonderful tracking enabled) then they could've simply implemented an individual option to override the admin's setting. But no, this is once again a pathetic smokescreen where the actual motives are obfuscated and the users lose again.

evancoop 5y ago

At some point, society will have a broader conversation about respecting the word 'no.' Without mentioning a different context explicitly, we all recognize the grotesque immorality when 'no' must be stated repeatedly (and even then, the requests do not cease). Google (and other large tech companies) require a level of vigilance from their users in boundary-setting that would be unacceptable in almost any other context.

tobr 5y ago
Yes and, I would add, not just respect the word 'no', but allow it to be expressed in the first place. Not 'maybe later'. Not 'remind me tomorrow'. Not 'manage options'. Just 'no'.
- dsnr 5y ago
  Modern UX: “ We respect your privacy! Do you agree to the use of cookies by this website? [x] Yes, all of them, with some extra on top. [] I would like to manually review and uncheck 859 individual checkboxes or be directed to some other 3rd party website to manage my settings there. Also, I would like these settings to expire after 7 days. Your personal data matters to us! (In ways you can’t imagine) “
  - plebianRube 5y ago
    Put it in the pile with the other dark patterns.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > our personal data matters to us! (In ways you can’t imagine) No, "we value your privacy (at a very high price!)".
    - pwdisswordfish9 5y ago
      We value your privacy, that’s why we don’t give it to you for free
  - 5y ago

filereaper 5y ago

Does anyone know what's happening at Google? Have they grown to the point that the huge profits from web search aren't enough to sustain them or something? I'm seeing Google ratchet up its monetization across all aspects: - YouTube plays mandatory multiple ads - Frontpage search is full of ads - Gmail used to have some Infinity plus storage plan but now after 15gb is used you can't receive email. And they're using Photos towards this quota. Nothing against paying for services but there's a noticeable and very aggressive drive towards lockin and monetization of its users. Far more than before, so what happened to Google that's causing this?

Ralfp 5y ago
Did they really make money off search? I was always under impression that search was only a gateway to their services ecosystem and its that what makes them money.
- jorvi 5y ago
  Search and ads are intrinsically linked and the vast majority of their profit comes from ads.
- cableshaft 5y ago
  "Search is Google’s most lucrative unit. In 2020, the company generated $104 billion in “search and other” revenues, making up 71% of Google’s ad revenue and 57% of Alphabet’s total revenue. That “search and other” figure includes revenue generated on Google’s search properties, along with ads on other Google-owned properties like Gmail, Maps and the Google Play app store." https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/how-does-google-make-money-advertising-business-breakdown-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/how-does-google-make-money-a... It pays enough that they're willing to pay Apple up to $15 billion a year so Apple doesn't make their own search engine and leave Google as the default search engine on Safari: https://gadgets360.com/apps/news/google-apple-default-search-engine-safari-pay-usd-15-billion-iphone-ipad-mac-2021-microsoft-bing-2520582 https://gadgets360.com/apps/news/google-apple-default-search...
  - 5y ago

boopmaster 5y ago

Google’s most disruptive products like search and mail are over 20 years old now. Google moved on from its values of by-nerds-for-nerds and ethos of do no evil. I’m not the same person I was 20 years ago either. I upped my standards so up yours: screw yougle. Uninstall that spyware trash and move on. Edit: Google search itself is highly invasive nowadays. Try using it behind a VPN or in private browsing mode. It’s not accessible unless you agree to let Google raid your cookie jar.

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avsteele 5y ago

I still can't figure out how to turn this off! Can anyone tell me? If I read: https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328#zippy=%2Chow-do https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328#zippy=%2Chow-do... Then the instructions say: > You can enable or disable Google Workspace search history: > * Go to the My Activity page. > * Click Other Google activity and then Google Workspace search history. > * Click On or Off. If I go to: https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity Yes, I can find "Other Google activity" (check the top left hamburger menu if you don't see it) But inside this, there is NO "Google Workspace search history". How are you supposed to do this? I'm definitely logged in as my workspace account.

haunter 5y ago
Same here, no Google Workspace search history
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thenerdhead 5y ago

User "choice" should persist through any product's development just like their private information. It should be protected by law. How often this happens in big tech products to re-establish user telemetry to "help" said company build better product is almost satire at this point. No means no. It does not mean I have to say no again in the future.

tambourine_man 5y ago

“No” is just a decorative toggle for Google at this point. I have to set on a weekly basis no auto play on thumbnail hover, no auto play next video when the current one is over, I don't want this user as my main Gmail account, etc. In fact, user input is probably only regarded on the million/billion scale. I quote strings on search, ask for suggestions to be only in the languages that I speak rather than my geolocation… all bluntly ignored. The best one can hope for these days is to add its own grain of sand to the pile to slightly nudge the algorithm.

shadowgovt 5y ago
Out of curiosity, are you using uBlock or tossing your Google cookies frequently? Plugins like uBlock interfere with a function of a web page in ways that are very hard to predict by page developers, so there's no telling what's going on if you have that enabled (maybe it thinks a request to a server to fetch your settings is going to an ad server and blocking it). And some of those settings, of course, are stored locally in cookies. > million / billion scale That is true. "Don't optimize for the uncommon case" is something I've had a Googler tell me as a software best practice.
- fluoridation 5y ago
  "Don't optimize for the uncommon case" and "don't handle the uncommon case" are different, though. Google seems to go for the latter, more often than not.
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    The thing being optimized is developer time.
- boredumb 5y ago
  "Don't optimize for the uncommon case" A fun way to ensure the case you focused on and optimize for is always the most common case since the other use cases are suboptimal and frustrating.
- 5y ago

louissan 5y ago

ok how to turn off this crap?

127 5y ago

How do you check your Youtube subs without getting the cookie and Google knowing exactly who you are on each of their sites? Have to switch back to Firefox to get containerization?

qwertox 5y ago
How is this related? You don't have to switch to Firefox, you can create another profile in Chrome where you allow all the cookies and use that for Email and YouTube subscription checking. Isn't using multiple profiles a normal thing to do?

jsnell 5y ago

The article seems intentionally misleading. It's implying that if the organization disabled the "Web & App Activity" setting will not carry over to the user. That's not what the support page says though: > If you disabled Web & App Activity in the Admin console, it is turned off for Google Workspace users. Users can turn it on if they want. So nobody will be tracked on the web who wasn't previously. The setting that will be turned on is just the one controlling search history within Gmail, Docs, Drive etc. (But it does seem surprising that they didn't just show a option dialogue on the next load of a Workspace app and ask the user to choose.)

jiggyjace 5y ago
Yeah I was just about to ask because I went through my Google Workspace account and tracking is still turned off even though it's already March 29...
tedivm 5y ago
To be fair, it seems like Google backtracked on this due to the negative attention. All of their original statements about this made it clear they would be tracking people after the change, but in the two months since the original announcement they must have changed their minds.
- tut-urut-utut 5y ago
  It's more likely that they are now tracing users anyway, they just lie they don't.
- taneq 5y ago
  > due to the negative attention They didn't backtrack and they didn't change their minds. They decided to wait a little while until attention on this particular invasion had subsided before perpetrating it as they had always planned.
- jsnell 5y ago
  I don't think that's true. The 2022-02-02 copy of the support page on archive.org shows the same answer: https://web.archive.org/web/20220202033903/https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328#zippy=%2Cwhat-happens-for-my-users-if-i-dont-do-anything https://web.archive.org/web/20220202033903/https://support.g... (That's the first version of that page on archive.org, and also seems to be the day this was announced based on the previous HN discussion.)

JCM9 5y ago

Google has seriously struggled to be financially successful in anything other than selling information about you to others (via “targeted” ads). That means that they’re going to be increasingly desperate to maintain their data collection abilities. No obviously means no, but until they are forced to Google will keep playing these “well we assume you really probably do want this so we’re just going to go back and mark you down for a yes again, but you can say no again if you’d like” games. Of course the reason they do this is they hope people don’t notice and/or forget to just keep saying no everytime this happens. Don’t be evil? This is evil.

leksak 5y ago
> No obviously means no If only YouTube understood this
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Wowfunhappy 5y ago

You can dislike this, you can call it a dark pattern, but the title is inaccurate: > Google is changing its Workspace Settings, including a change that activates activity tracking for all users of Google Workspace accounts even if the organization's admin disabled activity tracking for all users previously. The users never turned off tracking. Their organization admin did so for them. Now users have to go do it themselves (edit: they may not even have to do that per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30841812 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30841812). This is significantly less bad than what the title implies. Meanwhile, there are companies that actually just forget user tracking preferences. Amazon for example silently turns browsing history for my account back on every time their cookie expires. Why does Amazon store this as a cookie rather than as a persistent account setting? Great question...

falcolas 5y ago
It was turned off by the entity paying for the service, and that choice is being ignored in the ever growing search for more personal data. Title’s perfectly accurate IMO.
- shafyy 5y ago
  Exactly, they should default to turning it off, not on.
ceejayoz 5y ago
> The users never turned off tracking. Their organization admin did so for them. Now users have to go do it themselves. In some countries, this may put the company in a rough spot legally, and it seems fairly clear the motivation is "we at Google want more tracking, even if the organization paying for the service does not".
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> This is scummy, I’m struggling to understand why this is even scummy. This specific activity tracking isn’t even used for advertising like many are assuming (Source: https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/answer/11194328?hl=en ). Everything about this article and what it’s implying feels like it was carefully crafted to generate maximum outrage while omitting all of the relevant details that might clarify what’s happening. This article and headline were basically crafted to be ragebait, and it appears to have succeeded.

antattack 5y ago

Does this include student google accounts provided by schools?

unethical_ban 5y ago

>Imagine going into a restaurant and saying "I really don’t enjoy a medium rare steak please make it medium well" and having the chef say "ok fine but medium rare steak is the best way to enjoy it so I made it medium rare despite what you previously explicitly told me enjoy". Alternative: Imagine people expect the waiter to always know what they want when they walk in the door and say "I want steak with the usual" but the waiter doesn't know what the usual is. And it's because you, the customer (or your "dad", the workspace admin), has told the waiter not to remember you once you leave the restaurant each time. You don't really know you did this, you just had some friend from the EFF tell you "Waiters should never remember you!" and so you went along with it. People probably expect Google to "just know" what they're looking for when you search, and search quality goes down when search history can't be used to refine results. So Google is putting it back in peoples' faces saying "I am pretty sure you want this on, and with Workspaces, we aren't using it for ads, just to make the product better". There is my charitable reading of it.

mellavora 5y ago
>Imagine going into a restaurant and saying "I really don’t enjoy a medium rare steak please make it medium well" and having the chef say "ok fine but medium rare steak is the best way to enjoy it so I made it medium rare despite what you previously explicitly told me enjoy". This actually happened to me, and it is how I learned that "well done" steak does not mean the same as "well done" on an exam. I've been enjoying rare to medium rare ever since.

KingOfCoders 5y ago

"What is more, admins can no longer control this setting for their users, but all users need to invidually toggle the tracking off again." Side tracking, to me it would seem legal for an admin to turn tracking off, but would it be legal forn and admin to turn tracking on?

deleted 5y ago
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thesuitonym 5y ago
That's a great question, and I don't have a general answer--maybe there isn't one--but in this instance, the admin wasn't turning the tracking on or off, but was making the service available or not. If the service was turned on, it was up to the user to turn tracking on or off.

uhtred 5y ago

Problem is most people don't care. Most people couldn't give a flying f** if their data is being collected, as long as they get all these free services. They don't know or care how much it costs to build/run/maintain things like instagram and youtube, which to them are just "websites" or "apps" on their phone, and therefore don't question how google/fb etc funds them. They need to be hit round the face with the truth, like if they saw someone at their home window watching them. They need to be shocked into realizing what is happening.

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turtle_ 5y ago

I recently left Google after spending a few years there. Internally Google puts a huge premium on user safety and privacy. So much so that shipping anything requires getting changes through a regulatory process to safeguard users. Google doesn’t do a good job of marketing its process. In some domains Google does explicitly use user behavior to drive revenue, so from the outside it becomes easy to spin changes like this as encroaching on user privacy, but I don’t see that here. I see something like a PM who is trying to surface some more functionality to users directly, and some engineers who spent far too long with lawyers to get sign off on this change. It may be fashionable to sensationalize product changes like this, but the truth is often more mundane. Edit: found a comment from the PM themselves in a previous discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30174304 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30174304

seanw444 5y ago
While it may not be intentionally sinister, it's a precedent I can't agree with. Been on a journey to self-host as much of my stuff as I can to avoid this crap.
avgcorrection 5y ago
> It may be fashionable to sensationalize product changes like this, but the truth is often more mundane. A company which relies on user data for its revenue using user data seems like a mundane explanation to me.
titzer 5y ago
> Internally Google puts a huge premium on user safety and privacy. It's Orwellian doublethink. Google will go miles out of its way to convince itself it gives a damn about user privacy, when it obviously does not give a damn about user privacy. Google always finds a way to justify studying users like lab rats. For Google, they believe that they are inherently in your circle of trust and that they are allowed to know anything they want to know about you because they are by default, up to nothing but good. Google fundamentally does not understand that keeping things private means keeping things private from Google. If you aren't paying Google, then they are harvesting your attention, activities, preferences, and future spending habits to eventually sell to the highest bidder.

endisneigh 5y ago

Peoples hatred of google is so strong straight up spam is making it to the top lol. The source cited in the article is HN itself and markets its own product as an alternative.

juanani 5y ago
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Does Google not deserve the hate they've cultivated through their actions over the years?
- judge2020 5y ago
  This is about a specific Workspace change that allows administrators to turn off tracking for products that fall under the 'no ads' category separately from those that don't (other non-core services[0]). Before, turning off this setting disabled many useful features in Gmail as well as disabled tracking for org users for the stuff you care about. That's why this is spam - it's twisting this change into something they can use to market their 'encrypted email/calendar' product. 0: https://workspace.google.com/terms/user_features.html https://workspace.google.com/terms/user_features.html

vishnugupta 5y ago

Every day I feel more vindicated about moving to Apple's ecosystem 2 years ago. Their only two services I use are YouTube and Google Maps; both on safari so no tracking. I'll give Apple maps a try.

ectospheno 5y ago
I am still using YouTube and YouTube TV. Just last month I finally moved email and deleted my workspace account. Pretty happy so far. I only use Apple Maps in the US and have been happy. If you haven’t used it lately then it is worth another try.

MR4D 5y ago

Page 11 of this document [0] is a good place to start. Clearly people have strong opinions on this topic, so now is a great time to review your changes. [0] - https://services.google.com/fh/files/misc/google_workspace_data_protection_guide_en_dec2020.pdf https://services.google.com/fh/files/misc/google_workspace_d...

dylan604 5y ago
Seems hard to believe that a document dated December 2020 would still be valid. Maybe not everything in it has changed, but to think that nothing has changed from a company like Googs is odd as well. Hell, how many offered services that would be listed in that document has Googs killed in the years since the ink dried on the document?
- MR4D 5y ago
  It's the first result in a Google search, so if it isn't, then that would be pretty ironic. Still...

dmix 5y ago

If it's a good helpful feature to have activity tracking then tell the user... let them decide if they want it.

Jenz 5y ago

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Google, and this does sound in character; but something is off about this website.

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paulcarroty 5y ago

Great! Android is your personal little spy, glad I ditched it and hope many people will figure it out.

tut-urut-utut 5y ago
Ditched for what? It's not like iOS in an order of magnitude better, maybe just a bit or two.
deleted 5y ago
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