5 ms·

> The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. For what it's worth, sev

> The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. For what it's worth, several of my old college friends are heavily involved with extra-curricular programs at the middle school and high school level across a few different states. From what I've observed, your generalization isn't true at all. The extra-curricular programs are actually heavily populated with students who have two parents working long hours who want something productive for their kids to do after school.

rayiner 5y ago
Harvard doesn’t care about the extra curricular activities offered in midwestern high schools—sports (unless good enough to be recruited), 4H, playing an instrument, etc.
- csa 5y ago
  > Harvard doesn’t care about the extra curricular activities offered in midwestern high schools—sports (unless good enough to be recruited), 4H, playing an instrument, etc. I beg to differ. Anyone who does any of these things at a regional, national, or international level would probably be very strong candidates, assuming they have competitive grades and scores.
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    Regional isn't true. National depends on the sport and instrument. International they'd care about even as a bit if it's big enough to get covered in national newspapers. Harvard can afford to be extremely highly selective.
    - csa 5y ago
      > Regional isn't true. Actual examples I know of people who got into elite schools: - First chair violin in city youth orchestra - Winner of regional ice-skating competitions, but not nowhere near Olympic competition-level. - Winner of regional judo tournaments, again not at Olympic competition-level. - Winner of regional chess tournaments. Not a national champion. Can’t remember his rank, but he actually didn’t spend much time playing or studying chess as a teenager… he was just a crusher. - Winner of school-based regional trivia tournaments. Attended nationals but never placed. - Winner of regional solo sailing competitions. Note that free/cheap access to small racing sail boats was pretty easy in this person’s community. - Soccer player selected to regional-based national team development squad. Note that, imho, this is not nearly as impressive as it sounds. He also played on a “travel team” (about half of whom also made the development squad) that won many regional tournaments, but never succeeded nationally. - Many athletes who were not recruited (in that they did not get preferential admissions treatment… see “Academic Index” for more insight), but who were varsity athletes in high school and college in track and field, cross country running, rowing, gymnastics, golf, swimming, diving, etc. > National depends on the sport and instrument. Actual examples I know of people who got into elite schools: - For instrument, see local orchestra above as being adequate. - Took two years off after high school to tour and perform with a jazz band. - Starter on nationally ranked football team who was definitely not recruited to any elite schools and had no intentions of playing collegiately. - Player on nationally ranked ultimate (“frisbee football”) team. - Several people who were nationally ranked in various niche sports like fencing, squash, etc., but were not Olympic-caliber. > International they'd care about even as a bit if it's big enough to get covered in national newspapers Actual examples I know of people who got into elite schools: - Went to international science fair four years in a row. Got there’s by scoring well enough in locals, regionals, and nationals. Note that this is something that an elite school-bound 4Her could do if they tried. - Co-authored science research that was published into an international journal. All of these fall into the “sports, instruments, and 4h” that was originally mentioned. It could easily be expanded if community development examples were included. Note that most of my examples were regional, so I humbly suggest your concept of what is needed for admission is way off base. Also note that not all of these folks went to Harvard (not all applied to Harvard), but some did.
      - bradlys 5y ago
        Are these people who are living in the "midwest" like Chicago or midwest like some rural town of 10,000 people that is hours away from any major city?
        csa 5y ago
        > Are these people who are living in the "midwest" like Chicago or midwest like some rural town of 10,000 people that is hours away from any major city? Off the top of my head, with provincial city being something like Akron, OH and provincial town being something like Bangor, ME: Provincial cities in DE, IL, MI, TX, MT, IN, FL, OK. Provincial towns in GA (2... both near military bases), CA (2), TX, HI, WA, WI, PA. The interesting thing is that being from a provincial area has a lot of merits (and some demerits). MERITS - There is often very little competition for slots (depends on state). - It's relatively easy to have a very high class rank and to be the top 1% of students that a teacher has ever taught. - It is relatively easy to find ways to stand out in community development, since there are not dozens or hundreds of local kids who are trying to do the same (some for resume padding, some because they are genuine leaders). - It is relatively easy to get unique learning opportunities like Rotary scholarships to study abroad since most of the people around you lack interest and/or ability. - It is relatively easy to latch on to some local research initiative because most people around you lack interest and/or ability. - It can often be easy to be a varsity athlete in some sport just because you are willing to participate. This is true even if you are not particularly athletic, but you are willing to work at it. This may sound trivial and potentially distracting, but note that some elite schools (e.g., Harvard) specifically rate you on athletics. DEMERITS - Many/most teachers will not know how to write strong recommendations, even if that is what they want to convey. Short version... provide specific details/examples that describe someone who is actually amazing. - One or more folks in the process may try to keep you down, especially if they don't like you -- think school counselor, a teacher, etc. It helps a lot to be liked, but a lot of smart kids realize that K-12 schooling (especially in provincial areas) is the farce that it is, so they are often cynical and antagonistic towards teachers and administrators. - Since school is often very easy, it can be tough to motivate oneself to study tougher topics, many of which have to be studied at a different venue (e.g., junior college, summer studies, self-study, etc.). The smartest kid in school often chooses to coast rather than push themselves, since it is not clear how pushing themselves has the potential to benefit them. - Unless they are in a good private school or learn from another source, some/many folks from provincial areas are underprepared for an elite education. They often don't have the same foundation of knowledge and study skills that folks who went to better schools have, often times because they rarely or never had to study. Catching up in foundational knowledge and study skills is not impossible to overcome, but it's definitely starting a square or two behind everyone else. - You probably won't know anyone at your university going in, but some of your dorm mates (e.g., from Stuyvesant) will have quite a few peers with whom they attended high school.
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  That's not true. Harvard and similar colleges actively discriminate against 4-H participants, ROTC and similar red-state activities. > But what Espenshade and Radford found in regard to what they call “career-oriented activities” was truly shocking even to this hardened veteran of the campus ideological and cultural wars. Participation in such Red State activities as high school ROTC, 4-H clubs, or the Future Farmers of America was found to reduce very substantially a student’s chances of gaining admission to the competitive private colleges in the NSCE database on an all-other-things-considered basis. The admissions disadvantage was greatest for those in leadership positions in these activities or those winning honors and awards. “Being an officer or winning awards” for such career-oriented activities as junior ROTC, 4-H, or Future Farmers of America, say Espenshade and Radford, “has a significantly negative association with admission outcomes at highly selective institutions.” Excelling in these activities “is associated with 60 or 65 percent lower odds of admission.” https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2010/07/12/how_diversity_punishes_asians/ https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2010/07/12/how_diversity_pu...
  - rayiner 5y ago
    That’s exactly what I said. My wife went to high school in Iowa and was involved in FFA. :)
    - csa 5y ago
      > That’s exactly what I said. My wife went to high school in Iowa and was involved in FFA. If someone is involved in 4H or FFA in a way that would be compelling for an elite school like Harvard or Stanford, I wonder why they would want to go to that elite school. To use a simple example in California (where I currently reside), highly competitive / leaders in 4H and FFA people would almost always be much better served going to UC Davis rather than Stanford or Berkeley. If Stanford or Harvard would be a better fit, I think the onus would be on the applicant to explain why. This is very doable (e.g., a focus on agricultural macroeconomics or investing), but I’m not sure most teenagers who do not have connections to elite schools would naturally think to do that in their application and/or other supporting activities.
- mitchdoogle 5y ago
  Why would you say that?

rayiner 5y ago

Harvard doesn’t care about the extra curricular activities offered in midwestern high schools—sports (unless good enough to be recruited), 4H, playing an instrument, etc.

csa 5y ago
> Harvard doesn’t care about the extra curricular activities offered in midwestern high schools—sports (unless good enough to be recruited), 4H, playing an instrument, etc. I beg to differ. Anyone who does any of these things at a regional, national, or international level would probably be very strong candidates, assuming they have competitive grades and scores.
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  Regional isn't true. National depends on the sport and instrument. International they'd care about even as a bit if it's big enough to get covered in national newspapers. Harvard can afford to be extremely highly selective.
  - csa 5y ago
    > Regional isn't true. Actual examples I know of people who got into elite schools: - First chair violin in city youth orchestra - Winner of regional ice-skating competitions, but not nowhere near Olympic competition-level. - Winner of regional judo tournaments, again not at Olympic competition-level. - Winner of regional chess tournaments. Not a national champion. Can’t remember his rank, but he actually didn’t spend much time playing or studying chess as a teenager… he was just a crusher. - Winner of school-based regional trivia tournaments. Attended nationals but never placed. - Winner of regional solo sailing competitions. Note that free/cheap access to small racing sail boats was pretty easy in this person’s community. - Soccer player selected to regional-based national team development squad. Note that, imho, this is not nearly as impressive as it sounds. He also played on a “travel team” (about half of whom also made the development squad) that won many regional tournaments, but never succeeded nationally. - Many athletes who were not recruited (in that they did not get preferential admissions treatment… see “Academic Index” for more insight), but who were varsity athletes in high school and college in track and field, cross country running, rowing, gymnastics, golf, swimming, diving, etc. > National depends on the sport and instrument. Actual examples I know of people who got into elite schools: - For instrument, see local orchestra above as being adequate. - Took two years off after high school to tour and perform with a jazz band. - Starter on nationally ranked football team who was definitely not recruited to any elite schools and had no intentions of playing collegiately. - Player on nationally ranked ultimate (“frisbee football”) team. - Several people who were nationally ranked in various niche sports like fencing, squash, etc., but were not Olympic-caliber. > International they'd care about even as a bit if it's big enough to get covered in national newspapers Actual examples I know of people who got into elite schools: - Went to international science fair four years in a row. Got there’s by scoring well enough in locals, regionals, and nationals. Note that this is something that an elite school-bound 4Her could do if they tried. - Co-authored science research that was published into an international journal. All of these fall into the “sports, instruments, and 4h” that was originally mentioned. It could easily be expanded if community development examples were included. Note that most of my examples were regional, so I humbly suggest your concept of what is needed for admission is way off base. Also note that not all of these folks went to Harvard (not all applied to Harvard), but some did.
    - bradlys 5y ago
      Are these people who are living in the "midwest" like Chicago or midwest like some rural town of 10,000 people that is hours away from any major city?
      - csa 5y ago
        > Are these people who are living in the "midwest" like Chicago or midwest like some rural town of 10,000 people that is hours away from any major city? Off the top of my head, with provincial city being something like Akron, OH and provincial town being something like Bangor, ME: Provincial cities in DE, IL, MI, TX, MT, IN, FL, OK. Provincial towns in GA (2... both near military bases), CA (2), TX, HI, WA, WI, PA. The interesting thing is that being from a provincial area has a lot of merits (and some demerits). MERITS - There is often very little competition for slots (depends on state). - It's relatively easy to have a very high class rank and to be the top 1% of students that a teacher has ever taught. - It is relatively easy to find ways to stand out in community development, since there are not dozens or hundreds of local kids who are trying to do the same (some for resume padding, some because they are genuine leaders). - It is relatively easy to get unique learning opportunities like Rotary scholarships to study abroad since most of the people around you lack interest and/or ability. - It is relatively easy to latch on to some local research initiative because most people around you lack interest and/or ability. - It can often be easy to be a varsity athlete in some sport just because you are willing to participate. This is true even if you are not particularly athletic, but you are willing to work at it. This may sound trivial and potentially distracting, but note that some elite schools (e.g., Harvard) specifically rate you on athletics. DEMERITS - Many/most teachers will not know how to write strong recommendations, even if that is what they want to convey. Short version... provide specific details/examples that describe someone who is actually amazing. - One or more folks in the process may try to keep you down, especially if they don't like you -- think school counselor, a teacher, etc. It helps a lot to be liked, but a lot of smart kids realize that K-12 schooling (especially in provincial areas) is the farce that it is, so they are often cynical and antagonistic towards teachers and administrators. - Since school is often very easy, it can be tough to motivate oneself to study tougher topics, many of which have to be studied at a different venue (e.g., junior college, summer studies, self-study, etc.). The smartest kid in school often chooses to coast rather than push themselves, since it is not clear how pushing themselves has the potential to benefit them. - Unless they are in a good private school or learn from another source, some/many folks from provincial areas are underprepared for an elite education. They often don't have the same foundation of knowledge and study skills that folks who went to better schools have, often times because they rarely or never had to study. Catching up in foundational knowledge and study skills is not impossible to overcome, but it's definitely starting a square or two behind everyone else. - You probably won't know anyone at your university going in, but some of your dorm mates (e.g., from Stuyvesant) will have quite a few peers with whom they attended high school.
barry-cotter 5y ago
That's not true. Harvard and similar colleges actively discriminate against 4-H participants, ROTC and similar red-state activities. > But what Espenshade and Radford found in regard to what they call “career-oriented activities” was truly shocking even to this hardened veteran of the campus ideological and cultural wars. Participation in such Red State activities as high school ROTC, 4-H clubs, or the Future Farmers of America was found to reduce very substantially a student’s chances of gaining admission to the competitive private colleges in the NSCE database on an all-other-things-considered basis. The admissions disadvantage was greatest for those in leadership positions in these activities or those winning honors and awards. “Being an officer or winning awards” for such career-oriented activities as junior ROTC, 4-H, or Future Farmers of America, say Espenshade and Radford, “has a significantly negative association with admission outcomes at highly selective institutions.” Excelling in these activities “is associated with 60 or 65 percent lower odds of admission.” https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2010/07/12/how_diversity_punishes_asians/ https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2010/07/12/how_diversity_pu...
- rayiner 5y ago
  That’s exactly what I said. My wife went to high school in Iowa and was involved in FFA. :)
  - csa 5y ago
    > That’s exactly what I said. My wife went to high school in Iowa and was involved in FFA. If someone is involved in 4H or FFA in a way that would be compelling for an elite school like Harvard or Stanford, I wonder why they would want to go to that elite school. To use a simple example in California (where I currently reside), highly competitive / leaders in 4H and FFA people would almost always be much better served going to UC Davis rather than Stanford or Berkeley. If Stanford or Harvard would be a better fit, I think the onus would be on the applicant to explain why. This is very doable (e.g., a focus on agricultural macroeconomics or investing), but I’m not sure most teenagers who do not have connections to elite schools would naturally think to do that in their application and/or other supporting activities.
mitchdoogle 5y ago
Why would you say that?