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The far bigger issue is that France and Germany (especially Germany) have a chronic underspending problem on their military. They choose to spend on social prog

The far bigger issue is that France and Germany (especially Germany) have a chronic underspending problem on their military. They choose to spend on social programs instead. You can't claim leadership of a pan-EU army when you yourself don't even meet the 2% GDP spending target set by NATO.

Xylakant 5y ago
In 2020, German spent about 53 billion USD on its military, that’s rank 7 world-wide. The UK spent 59 billion, about the same ballpark. The bigger problem in Germany is inefficient spending.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  Using absolute numbers borders on fraud. What's the %?
  - lorenzfx 5y ago
    Why care about the %? What really matters are the capabilities, no matter the cost.
- ceeplusplus 5y ago
  Correct, but if Germany wants to be a leader of a pan-EU army it needs to be a dominant military power in the region (for example the US globally, or Turkey in the East Mediterranean, or what Egypt/Libya used to be in the Middle East before the US decided to regime change them). Else you just get political squabbling because the various states have equal power and nothing gets done. I'm not saying social spending is bad, just that if playing a lead role in a pan-EU army is Germany's interest then it needs to spend more.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    How will more money fix the fundamental issue of inefficient spending? It will just be more money inefficiently spent.
nradov 5y ago
The bulk of the German military hasn't been combat effective for a long time, and is basically just a government jobs program. https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick-instead-guns-nato-exercise-307902 https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick... https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys-submarines-are-currently-down/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys... https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jets-combat-ready-report/a-43611873 https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jet... It's going to take a while to rebuild into an organization capable of actually fighting.
- lorenzfx 5y ago
  Did you read the first article? That broomstick example gets paraded around a lot, but this was on a vehicle, that wasn't supposed to have a gun in the first place. There is a lot of valid criticism on the readiness of Germany's armed forces, this isn't one.
  - sgt101 5y ago
    You've made this comment twice - I am curious. Which configuration of the Boxer was it that was in the exercise without the weapon. I believe that the ambulance doesn't have one - which one was the German crew on?
hunglee2 5y ago
arguably those two are linked - you can rationalise that French / German govt have been reluctant to spend on military force over which they have less influence than they would prefer. Hence the arguments for an EU army, despite the existence of NATO. We will see what happens with the German U-turn on military spending whether this results in them falling into line alongside the Brits in NATO, or closer the French in a EU military force. I suspect it will now be the former, given the loss of leverage the Germans now have

Xylakant 5y ago

In 2020, German spent about 53 billion USD on its military, that’s rank 7 world-wide. The UK spent 59 billion, about the same ballpark. The bigger problem in Germany is inefficient spending.

axiosgunnar 5y ago
Using absolute numbers borders on fraud. What's the %?
- lorenzfx 5y ago
  Why care about the %? What really matters are the capabilities, no matter the cost.
ceeplusplus 5y ago
Correct, but if Germany wants to be a leader of a pan-EU army it needs to be a dominant military power in the region (for example the US globally, or Turkey in the East Mediterranean, or what Egypt/Libya used to be in the Middle East before the US decided to regime change them). Else you just get political squabbling because the various states have equal power and nothing gets done. I'm not saying social spending is bad, just that if playing a lead role in a pan-EU army is Germany's interest then it needs to spend more.
- Xylakant 5y ago
  How will more money fix the fundamental issue of inefficient spending? It will just be more money inefficiently spent.

nradov 5y ago

The bulk of the German military hasn't been combat effective for a long time, and is basically just a government jobs program. https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick-instead-guns-nato-exercise-307902 https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick... https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys-submarines-are-currently-down/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys... https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jets-combat-ready-report/a-43611873 https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jet... It's going to take a while to rebuild into an organization capable of actually fighting.

lorenzfx 5y ago
Did you read the first article? That broomstick example gets paraded around a lot, but this was on a vehicle, that wasn't supposed to have a gun in the first place. There is a lot of valid criticism on the readiness of Germany's armed forces, this isn't one.
- sgt101 5y ago
  You've made this comment twice - I am curious. Which configuration of the Boxer was it that was in the exercise without the weapon. I believe that the ambulance doesn't have one - which one was the German crew on?

hunglee2 5y ago

arguably those two are linked - you can rationalise that French / German govt have been reluctant to spend on military force over which they have less influence than they would prefer. Hence the arguments for an EU army, despite the existence of NATO. We will see what happens with the German U-turn on military spending whether this results in them falling into line alongside the Brits in NATO, or closer the French in a EU military force. I suspect it will now be the former, given the loss of leverage the Germans now have