11 ms·

Aside, but I hate ligatures in code. If I didn't know what they were, I would have no idea what the blog's representation of a fat arrow => or a triple equals w

Aside, but I hate ligatures in code. If I didn't know what they were, I would have no idea what the blog's representation of a fat arrow => or a triple equals were. As it is, I still have to translate them before I fully get it.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
I heartily agree. Ligature fonts and the word "performant" belong in the same circular filing cabinet, marked "not as clever as it seems".
- jimmaswell 5y ago
  Performant: well-performing. There's nothing wrong with the word.
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    Don't feel too bad. Everyone has to be wrong about something. Luckily for you it's something small like this ;-)
    - nkozyra 5y ago
      What am I missing? https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/performant https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/perfo...
      - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        > What am I missing? My joke? (I always forget how HN is hostile to whimsy. Even when it is carefully signposted with an emoticon.) Just to add though: a word making its way into a dictionary is no guarantee of its usefulness, correctness or value. It only means a couple of definitions have been found in print. That's the standard by which words make it into dictionaries; there's no semantic gatekeeper.
        nkozyra 5y ago
        You're qualifying my response as "hostile?" I guess we're getting into fluid definitions, so sure :) I'm not sure calling someone wrong accompanied with an emoticon qualifies as whimsical, either. All that said, "correct" in language is "incorrect" tomorrow. That's how it's always worked. If I learned to accept "entitled" as meaning "given a title" I'm sure we can all handle a fairly terse and parseable usage for performant.
        unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        > You're qualifying my response as "hostile?" No, not you -- that was exasperation at the sudden, aggressive downvoting of what was clearly signposted as a joke. > I'm not sure calling someone wrong accompanied with an emoticon qualifies as whimsical, either. It was as clearly whimsical as I can make it. Complimenting on being wrong on something so small. But you're just making my point for me. I genuinely forget this place hates jokes that don't come with footnotes. > If I learned to accept "entitled" as meaning "given a title" I'm sure we can all handle a fairly terse and parseable usage for performant. "Never give up! Never surrender!"
        nkozyra 5y ago
        I think the issue is less jokes than posts without enough context to live on their own. I've seen plenty of humorous posts received well here when they're not jokes for the sake of the joke.
        unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        Fair point.
  - petepete 5y ago
    It was only added to the OED in 2018 after being misused in tech for fifteen or so years. Originally a performant was someone who'd performed in something (similar to combatant). Unfortunately it stuck.
    - nkozyra 5y ago
      Why is it unfortunate? The English language is built on an endless supply these mutations.
      - petepete 5y ago
        Just taste really, it sounds wrong to me. On the scale of new words I dislike, it's nothing compared to how football pundits describe players as 'unplayable' when they're on form.
        unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        On a scale of new words I dislike, it's actually more annoying to me than "revert back" meaning "get back to you on that", which has a wry charm. Mind you, I am still annoyed by people saying "addicting" when they actually mean "addictive", or "concerning" when they mean "a cause for concern". So I'm really not a good judge. But it still has to go in the circular filing cabinet.
        1123581321 5y ago
        If we were better at keeping -ive suffixed words, we could have had concernive instead to shorten that phrase without misusing -ing. :)
        unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        Now you're just trying to upset me. ;-)
        5y ago
- ojintoad 5y ago
  I remember when I saw the access operator "->" for the firsr time written as just a single connected right pointing arrow on a whiteboard as part of my first intro to programming class and being so confused about what button I was missing on my keyboard!
  - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
    IBM used to have a specific keyboard for APL programmers :-) Go big or go home.
  - bmn__ 5y ago
    The key (vulgo button) is not missing, merely the legend (vulgo labelling). In X, you can either press AltGr + i or Compose, -, >.
dimitrisnl 5y ago
Author here, I agree. I use ligatures mostly because I write JS and it's not that annoying. Now that I wrote something about PHP it's a bit problematic.
farleykr 5y ago
I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t think I will ever understand why people want to mess with legibility in a craft that is so heavily dependent on using correct characters in correct places.
prophesi 5y ago
I think the hate for ligatures is overblown. You'll only encounter them in code, so you should instantly realize what they represent. I can understand _preferring_ to not have ligatures enabled, but hating them entirely seems unwarranted.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  It’s an opinion. About typography. I can’t understand having an opinion that another person shouldn’t have whatever opinion about typography they want.
  - prophesi 5y ago
    If you really want to go down that rabbit hole, I was simply stating my opinion on another's opinion, and I can't understand having an opinion that another person can't understand another's opinion.
    - eyelidlessness 5y ago
      Liking or disliking something harmless is a matter of taste. Treating harmless preferences as subject to outside validation isn’t. It’s perfectly reasonable to expect that everyone is allowed to enjoy or prefer what they want, as long as no one is hurt by it. You didn’t express a disagreement with the opinion, you expressed that the opinion shouldn’t exist. That’s not the same thing.
      - prophesi 5y ago
        I said that the hate is overblown and unwarranted. That's not the same as saying it shouldn't exist; rather I was hoping to hear some good counterpoints to help me understand why some people dislike them to the point of hatred.
- bmn__ 5y ago
  > you should instantly realize what they represent Often doesn't work in practice. I cannot instantly distinguish • ‖ from ligated || • … from ligated ... • ⁂ from ligated *** • ⁇ from ligated ?? • → from ligated -> • ↜ from ligated <~ • ↠ from ligated ->> • ⇒ from ligated => • ⇔ from ligated <=> • ⇜ from ligated <~~ • ∨ from ligated \/ • ∷ from ligated :: • ≔ from ligated := • ≠ from ligated != • ≤ from ligated <= • ≪ from ligated << • ⊢ from ligated |- • ⋄ from ligated <> • ⋘ from ligated <<< • ◁ from ligated <| • ⩵ from ligated == • × from ligated x with hex digits following & al., but I have to examine the characters in kcharselect, a REPL or similar.
eyelidlessness 5y ago
I tried to like ligature coding fonts. I really wanted to like them. Ligatures are a really cool feature of prose fonts, and often even make text more readable. And they looked cool when I first encountered them in code. But every font I’ve tried with these ligatures added cognitive load in practice. And now I find the same when I see them in code examples. Maybe there’s a way to do them “right”, where they have the same positive impact on code readability. But I haven’t found a font yet which pulls that off. I’m not a font designer, so this is just using my imagination, but I suspect they’d work better if they still left some space in the monospace grid rather than fully spanning multiple characters. Eg => looks like an arrow but with a very fine gap (1px at any size? maybe 1 device pixel on high DPI at smaller sizes?) between the characters.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago

I heartily agree. Ligature fonts and the word "performant" belong in the same circular filing cabinet, marked "not as clever as it seems".

jimmaswell 5y ago
Performant: well-performing. There's nothing wrong with the word.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  Don't feel too bad. Everyone has to be wrong about something. Luckily for you it's something small like this ;-)
  - nkozyra 5y ago
    What am I missing? https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/performant https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/perfo...
    - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
      > What am I missing? My joke? (I always forget how HN is hostile to whimsy. Even when it is carefully signposted with an emoticon.) Just to add though: a word making its way into a dictionary is no guarantee of its usefulness, correctness or value. It only means a couple of definitions have been found in print. That's the standard by which words make it into dictionaries; there's no semantic gatekeeper.
      - nkozyra 5y ago
        You're qualifying my response as "hostile?" I guess we're getting into fluid definitions, so sure :) I'm not sure calling someone wrong accompanied with an emoticon qualifies as whimsical, either. All that said, "correct" in language is "incorrect" tomorrow. That's how it's always worked. If I learned to accept "entitled" as meaning "given a title" I'm sure we can all handle a fairly terse and parseable usage for performant.
        unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        > You're qualifying my response as "hostile?" No, not you -- that was exasperation at the sudden, aggressive downvoting of what was clearly signposted as a joke. > I'm not sure calling someone wrong accompanied with an emoticon qualifies as whimsical, either. It was as clearly whimsical as I can make it. Complimenting on being wrong on something so small. But you're just making my point for me. I genuinely forget this place hates jokes that don't come with footnotes. > If I learned to accept "entitled" as meaning "given a title" I'm sure we can all handle a fairly terse and parseable usage for performant. "Never give up! Never surrender!"
        nkozyra 5y ago
        I think the issue is less jokes than posts without enough context to live on their own. I've seen plenty of humorous posts received well here when they're not jokes for the sake of the joke.
        unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        Fair point.
- petepete 5y ago
  It was only added to the OED in 2018 after being misused in tech for fifteen or so years. Originally a performant was someone who'd performed in something (similar to combatant). Unfortunately it stuck.
  - nkozyra 5y ago
    Why is it unfortunate? The English language is built on an endless supply these mutations.
    - petepete 5y ago
      Just taste really, it sounds wrong to me. On the scale of new words I dislike, it's nothing compared to how football pundits describe players as 'unplayable' when they're on form.
      - unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        On a scale of new words I dislike, it's actually more annoying to me than "revert back" meaning "get back to you on that", which has a wry charm. Mind you, I am still annoyed by people saying "addicting" when they actually mean "addictive", or "concerning" when they mean "a cause for concern". So I'm really not a good judge. But it still has to go in the circular filing cabinet.
        1123581321 5y ago
        If we were better at keeping -ive suffixed words, we could have had concernive instead to shorten that phrase without misusing -ing. :)
        unfocussed_mike 5y ago
        Now you're just trying to upset me. ;-)
        5y ago
ojintoad 5y ago
I remember when I saw the access operator "->" for the firsr time written as just a single connected right pointing arrow on a whiteboard as part of my first intro to programming class and being so confused about what button I was missing on my keyboard!
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  IBM used to have a specific keyboard for APL programmers :-) Go big or go home.
- bmn__ 5y ago
  The key (vulgo button) is not missing, merely the legend (vulgo labelling). In X, you can either press AltGr + i or Compose, -, >.

dimitrisnl 5y ago

Author here, I agree. I use ligatures mostly because I write JS and it's not that annoying. Now that I wrote something about PHP it's a bit problematic.

farleykr 5y ago

I wholeheartedly agree. I don’t think I will ever understand why people want to mess with legibility in a craft that is so heavily dependent on using correct characters in correct places.

prophesi 5y ago

I think the hate for ligatures is overblown. You'll only encounter them in code, so you should instantly realize what they represent. I can understand _preferring_ to not have ligatures enabled, but hating them entirely seems unwarranted.

eyelidlessness 5y ago
It’s an opinion. About typography. I can’t understand having an opinion that another person shouldn’t have whatever opinion about typography they want.
- prophesi 5y ago
  If you really want to go down that rabbit hole, I was simply stating my opinion on another's opinion, and I can't understand having an opinion that another person can't understand another's opinion.
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    Liking or disliking something harmless is a matter of taste. Treating harmless preferences as subject to outside validation isn’t. It’s perfectly reasonable to expect that everyone is allowed to enjoy or prefer what they want, as long as no one is hurt by it. You didn’t express a disagreement with the opinion, you expressed that the opinion shouldn’t exist. That’s not the same thing.
    - prophesi 5y ago
      I said that the hate is overblown and unwarranted. That's not the same as saying it shouldn't exist; rather I was hoping to hear some good counterpoints to help me understand why some people dislike them to the point of hatred.
bmn__ 5y ago
> you should instantly realize what they represent Often doesn't work in practice. I cannot instantly distinguish • ‖ from ligated || • … from ligated ... • ⁂ from ligated *** • ⁇ from ligated ?? • → from ligated -> • ↜ from ligated <~ • ↠ from ligated ->> • ⇒ from ligated => • ⇔ from ligated <=> • ⇜ from ligated <~~ • ∨ from ligated \/ • ∷ from ligated :: • ≔ from ligated := • ≠ from ligated != • ≤ from ligated <= • ≪ from ligated << • ⊢ from ligated |- • ⋄ from ligated <> • ⋘ from ligated <<< • ◁ from ligated <| • ⩵ from ligated == • × from ligated x with hex digits following & al., but I have to examine the characters in kcharselect, a REPL or similar.

eyelidlessness 5y ago

I tried to like ligature coding fonts. I really wanted to like them. Ligatures are a really cool feature of prose fonts, and often even make text more readable. And they looked cool when I first encountered them in code. But every font I’ve tried with these ligatures added cognitive load in practice. And now I find the same when I see them in code examples. Maybe there’s a way to do them “right”, where they have the same positive impact on code readability. But I haven’t found a font yet which pulls that off. I’m not a font designer, so this is just using my imagination, but I suspect they’d work better if they still left some space in the monospace grid rather than fully spanning multiple characters. Eg => looks like an arrow but with a very fine gap (1px at any size? maybe 1 device pixel on high DPI at smaller sizes?) between the characters.