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This is what makes it difficult to discuss this. It's hard to do without rudely insulting people. How do you find words that are not too condescending. There is

This is what makes it difficult to discuss this. It's hard to do without rudely insulting people. How do you find words that are not too condescending. There is a long history of using "the people" to mean non intellectuals including it being enshrined in the US constitution. But that often does not make it clear enough for everyone to understand that we're talking about a vulnerability. Populism gets turned into a dirty word. How often have I stood into a room full of university graduates deriding populism equating it to demagogy. This is a form of punching down. But when done with a perspective of helping with the "handicap", people are more receptive than you would expect. I've made this argument on twitter once and maybe it was because of the criticism of the "elitist" down punchers but found myself for the first time gaining maga followers, the very people who's intelligence I insulted. Kid Rock's ode to MAGAism includes lyrics like:"NO I’VE NEVER BEEN THE SMARTEST (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agvibm7Wqy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agvibm7Wqy4) These people know they have a handicap when it comes to academic intellect and are looking for others who will respect the struggle that comes with that. People don't vote for Trump because they think he is smart, but because he respects the lack of academic smarts, because he is for them a refreshing example of success and respect without smarts in a world where it's increasingly difficult to achieve and people will cancel you if you are unable to reason at that academic level of morality.

dalbasal 5y ago
Idk, honestly. Maybe there's no way to answer all of these concurrently. I definitely here your point on non-intellectual populism. There's no requirement for everyone to be an intellectual and a worldview that does require this is also elitist. Otoh, I don't see many people reacting well to the moral handicap frame either. Personally, the route I usually go down is to (1) acknowledge that we disagree and (2) show that I can articulate their view respectfully. This is also a basis to move from. I don't think it's the structure or or content of the argument that matters... it's softer aspects like signaling respect, friendship and such. I don't think this is about making a perfect argument though. I think it takes a complex, multi-year "conversation." Imo, there's a lot to be learned from feminism. Pissing people off, being the object of hatred and derision was always going to be on a feminist menu. There was never going to be a way forward for feminism that didn't deeply offend and insult a lot of people. It doesn't end there though. The conversation goes on. Sometimes the femenists walked away from some of their arguments. Often, society conceded feminist viewpoints after years of deriding them. They didn't expect it to be respectful and pleasant at all times. Maybe you have to go through phases of tension to eventually come back together later.
quantumwannabe 5y ago
You are still being incredibly condescending. The people you mock don’t view themselves as “academically handicapped” and they voted for Trump because they thought he was smart, not because he was rich. At some point the “academic smarts” have to demonstrate success, otherwise people will rightfully discard them. Decades of constant failure from supposedly elite people in every possible field have lead to a reaction where people just don’t trust them no matter what they claim. Name your issue, and I guarantee someone with very good credentials who was very confident in their advocacy is responsible for its current state. The problem isn’t that the “proles” are stupid, but rather that the educated aren’t nearly as smart as they think they are. Nearly every person I know who has poor critical thinking skills and accepts the first thing they hear without question is college educated, and there are many conspiracy theories commonly believed by educated people.
- CodeShmode 5y ago
  > Decades of constant failure from supposedly elite people in every possible field have lead to a reaction where people just don’t trust them no matter what they claim. That’s a big claim to make without offering any examples.
  - krageon 5y ago
    Everyone fails constantly, so it makes sense that "elite people" (whatever those are) do too. Why would you have to give examples for something that is a fact of life? It is like breathing. Everyone does it, you do not need examples for it.
- icejjfish 5y ago
  You may appreciate the book “Intellectuals and Society” by Thomas Sowell.

dalbasal 5y ago

Idk, honestly. Maybe there's no way to answer all of these concurrently. I definitely here your point on non-intellectual populism. There's no requirement for everyone to be an intellectual and a worldview that does require this is also elitist. Otoh, I don't see many people reacting well to the moral handicap frame either. Personally, the route I usually go down is to (1) acknowledge that we disagree and (2) show that I can articulate their view respectfully. This is also a basis to move from. I don't think it's the structure or or content of the argument that matters... it's softer aspects like signaling respect, friendship and such. I don't think this is about making a perfect argument though. I think it takes a complex, multi-year "conversation." Imo, there's a lot to be learned from feminism. Pissing people off, being the object of hatred and derision was always going to be on a feminist menu. There was never going to be a way forward for feminism that didn't deeply offend and insult a lot of people. It doesn't end there though. The conversation goes on. Sometimes the femenists walked away from some of their arguments. Often, society conceded feminist viewpoints after years of deriding them. They didn't expect it to be respectful and pleasant at all times. Maybe you have to go through phases of tension to eventually come back together later.

quantumwannabe 5y ago

You are still being incredibly condescending. The people you mock don’t view themselves as “academically handicapped” and they voted for Trump because they thought he was smart, not because he was rich. At some point the “academic smarts” have to demonstrate success, otherwise people will rightfully discard them. Decades of constant failure from supposedly elite people in every possible field have lead to a reaction where people just don’t trust them no matter what they claim. Name your issue, and I guarantee someone with very good credentials who was very confident in their advocacy is responsible for its current state. The problem isn’t that the “proles” are stupid, but rather that the educated aren’t nearly as smart as they think they are. Nearly every person I know who has poor critical thinking skills and accepts the first thing they hear without question is college educated, and there are many conspiracy theories commonly believed by educated people.

CodeShmode 5y ago
> Decades of constant failure from supposedly elite people in every possible field have lead to a reaction where people just don’t trust them no matter what they claim. That’s a big claim to make without offering any examples.
- krageon 5y ago
  Everyone fails constantly, so it makes sense that "elite people" (whatever those are) do too. Why would you have to give examples for something that is a fact of life? It is like breathing. Everyone does it, you do not need examples for it.
icejjfish 5y ago
You may appreciate the book “Intellectuals and Society” by Thomas Sowell.