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> Apart from NATO expansion contrary to the unwritten undestandings of the 90-s A war over an “unwritten understanding”? Thats one of the saddest excuses for a

> Apart from NATO expansion contrary to the unwritten undestandings of the 90-s A war over an “unwritten understanding”? Thats one of the saddest excuses for an argument I’ve ever seen, not even a defunct treaty to wave around as defense, just an “unwritten understanding”. That wouldn’t fly in a contract negotiation, let alone as a casus belli. Nevermind how Putin’s own words put lies to your post a fucking month ago. Shame on you for repeating such obvious nonsense. Putin made it very clear that this was about him seeing Ukraine as a fake state; I have no idea why you would keep repeating the line that Putin himself cast away before starting an illegal war. Also, it drives me absolutely nuts that everyone keeps acting like it’s NATO that is expanding into Ukraine. Are we just pretending that Ukraine is a puppet without its agency and agenda? Hint: there is a pretty obvious reason why Ukraine wanted in NATO. It’s pure chauvinism to ignore this.

oldcigarette 5y ago
[flagged]
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  > Also drop the identity politics Incredible how valueless identity politics has become as a phrase, other than as a way to signal disagreement. > The truth of the matter is the West provoked a war through utter inept diplomacy and they are making things worse every day. “The world isn’t black and white. Anyways, I am going to blame one party alone for a geopolitical disaster. If you disagree you’re either wrong or doing identity politics”. > As someone else commented it's like we have children at the wheel. The sad part is even a large part of HN is just towing the party line blindly. Valueless ad hominem.
  - oldcigarette 5y ago
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      If you can’t restrain yourself from childish insults, you’ll probably get banned. It also makes everyone think you’re a child, and they will ignore your arguments because of it. Also, it’s “butt hurt”. Please try and at least spell your insults correctly, they lose a lot of their impact when riddled with typos. > west proceeds to deeply fuck with ukraine for 8 years while russia repeats the above and totally ignores it There is a reason why I accuse those who take this line of being chauvinists. First of all, for the past 8 years Ukraine has been begging for Western weapons and assistance, because Russia had already invaded their territory. You’re ignoring the fact that Ukraine has their own agenda and own initiative, and they can request assistance legitimately. Second, “mess with Ukraine and we’ll invade” is not a legitimate stance to take. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, not a Russian puppet state that Putin can put claims on. Especially when that “messing” is in the form of legitimate arms deals between sovereign nations. Russia can complain all it wants, but Ukraine trying to buy Javelins is not a legitimate casus belli. Third, again, Putin made it very clear in his initial speech that he views Ukraine as a fake state, which is wildly out of line with the argument you’re trying to make, and much more characteristic of Russian chauvinism towards Ukraine.
      - etotolkoya 5y ago
        mantas 5y ago
        You clearly don't know Russia... Reuniting all Russ lands and so on... As in that infamous accidentally published article :)
- newbamboo 5y ago
  Putin is evil. What he is doing is not morally acceptable. But it’s possible for Putin to be evil and for the western leadership to be inept and to have helped precipitate the instability. Is one of these more salient than the other? I tend to think so, despite popular opinion.

oldcigarette 5y ago

[flagged]

ashtonkem 5y ago
> Also drop the identity politics Incredible how valueless identity politics has become as a phrase, other than as a way to signal disagreement. > The truth of the matter is the West provoked a war through utter inept diplomacy and they are making things worse every day. “The world isn’t black and white. Anyways, I am going to blame one party alone for a geopolitical disaster. If you disagree you’re either wrong or doing identity politics”. > As someone else commented it's like we have children at the wheel. The sad part is even a large part of HN is just towing the party line blindly. Valueless ad hominem.
- oldcigarette 5y ago
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    If you can’t restrain yourself from childish insults, you’ll probably get banned. It also makes everyone think you’re a child, and they will ignore your arguments because of it. Also, it’s “butt hurt”. Please try and at least spell your insults correctly, they lose a lot of their impact when riddled with typos. > west proceeds to deeply fuck with ukraine for 8 years while russia repeats the above and totally ignores it There is a reason why I accuse those who take this line of being chauvinists. First of all, for the past 8 years Ukraine has been begging for Western weapons and assistance, because Russia had already invaded their territory. You’re ignoring the fact that Ukraine has their own agenda and own initiative, and they can request assistance legitimately. Second, “mess with Ukraine and we’ll invade” is not a legitimate stance to take. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, not a Russian puppet state that Putin can put claims on. Especially when that “messing” is in the form of legitimate arms deals between sovereign nations. Russia can complain all it wants, but Ukraine trying to buy Javelins is not a legitimate casus belli. Third, again, Putin made it very clear in his initial speech that he views Ukraine as a fake state, which is wildly out of line with the argument you’re trying to make, and much more characteristic of Russian chauvinism towards Ukraine.
    - etotolkoya 5y ago
      - mantas 5y ago
        You clearly don't know Russia... Reuniting all Russ lands and so on... As in that infamous accidentally published article :)
newbamboo 5y ago
Putin is evil. What he is doing is not morally acceptable. But it’s possible for Putin to be evil and for the western leadership to be inept and to have helped precipitate the instability. Is one of these more salient than the other? I tend to think so, despite popular opinion.