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if you have literally no concern about the suffering of animals, then it's a good thing. If you think that the suffering of animals outweighs people's preferenc

if you have literally no concern about the suffering of animals, then it's a good thing. If you think that the suffering of animals outweighs people's preferences (not needs, you can thrive on a vegetarian diet) then this is absolutely not good. I'm happy to see high prices for beef, and would be happy if everyone was priced out of eating it. As second best, I'd be happy if people at least considered the suffering that went into their food production and chose to reduce that consumption even if they feel they cannot eliminate it.

triyambakam 5y ago
I felt sad seeing the cows in the featured article :( Friends not food.
throwaway73838 5y ago
I agree. I think eating meat is abhorrent, and genetically mutilating animals even more so. Selective breeding is one thing, but this opens the doors to all kinds of ‘design gene’ questions that I don’t think the world is ready for, or ever should be.
- furstenheim 5y ago
  How is selective breeding good? There are dog breeds that have respiratory problems all their lives. CRISPR should open the door to genetic improvements without genetic diversity loss
  - simulate-me 5y ago
    The breathing issues found in certain breeds of dogs aren't from diversity loss. Rather, the breathing issues are caused by the traits being bred for. Pugs, for instance, are bred to have small noses, so small that they restrict airflow. CRISPR could exacerbate the desire of breeders to express physical characteristics in dogs without considerations for the impact of those changes on the well-being of the dog.
0des 5y ago
I respect your choice, and hope some day the work we see here can open doors to a lab grown alternative that eliminates the suffering so that you also can experience the joy of a ribeye, bone-in with a compound butter and runny egg.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  I also eat meat, so not going to play the saint here. But it seems you have absolutely no remorse of what happens to those animals that end up on your plate. Or you do and try to cover it up by playing the tough guy. I try to cut back on meat as much as I can. I also enjoy some ribs, but I don't eat meat every day. And when I do, I try to stick with fish or poultry. I suggest you watch some slaughterhouse videos, so you know what those animals have to go through to end up as tasty meat on your plate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTenibfTutI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTenibfTutI . Please watch it all up until the end. If you still have no remorse, you are for sure a psychopath.
  - 0des 5y ago
    A psychopath? Who's the tough guy?
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      So which one is it? Are you just PLAYING the role of a tough guy, or do you really have no remorse when watching that video?
  - naoqj 5y ago
    That video is slowed down in the most shocking moments to make it look like the suffering of the animals lasts for longer.
    - jlokier 5y ago
      Acute suffering and fear tends to last longer, subjectively, for humans. Psychological time stretches. Perhaps slowing it down is a more accurate portrayal of the animal's experience than not doing so.
landa 5y ago
You're 100% right about this. What's going on right now with mass slaughter of animals will hopefully end one day soon and be looked back on as the darkest time in the Earth's history.
thunderbong 5y ago
We weep for the blood of a bird, but not for the blood of a fish. Blessed are those who have voice. - Mamoru Oshii
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Lots of people don't eat fish.
Knufen 5y ago
This is probably gonna sound a bit dystopian, but would you eat beef if we eliminated suffering with CRISPR? I don't get to talk to a lot of vegetarians/vegans so honest question.
- bigDinosaur 5y ago
  I don't know. My moral intitutions and reasoning fall apart if you remove suffering from the equation. By that logic it would also be okay to farm and eat humans if we eliminated their ability to suffer using CRISPR. What would you think of that? I don't even know where to start.
  - genousti 5y ago
    - bigDinosaur 5y ago
      That'd be an okay but irrelevant to meat eating point if I was against supply chain transparency and stopping slavery. I am very much happy to see anyone who has enslaved anyone going to prison for the rest of their life though, and I'm very happy for companies to find alternative sources to warlords and corrupt banana republics.
    - ben_w 5y ago
      First, poor argument: https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ Second, Apple is actually trying to make sure that doesn’t happen: https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Combat-Human-Trafficking-and-Slavery-in-Supply-Chain-2020.pdf https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Comb...
    - lopis 5y ago
      > Yet u write this probably on an iphone or whatever computer where rate minerals where harvested by slaves who died doing so. This is the lowest effort meme argument commonly found in any animal rights discussions. Yes there are problems in the world. My choice of phone makes barely any difference ethically; thus I must leave society behind, lest im banned from arguing about anything at all? No, you evaluate what you have power over and act accordingly. I have access to all my nutrition in plat based food, so that's what I eat. I can afford and am able to use a Fairphone, so I do that. Defeatist comments like yours don't drive discussion nor help anyone, but those too lazy or accommodated to re-evaluate their impact on the world.
kmlx 5y ago
> you can thrive on a vegetarian diet as long as you take vitamins B12, D and some iron, you should be fine. but having been meat eaters for 2.4 million years will be hard to shake off. if anything eating beef will increase in the future as more and more people rise to the “middle class”. we should probably take this into consideration and it’s implications, no matter how you feel about the subject.
- bigDinosaur 5y ago
  People bring this up, but like, is eating dog okay? Even if you say yes, is factory farming them okay? Is eating human okay? No - just because we may have had meat in our diet for millions of years doesn't mean we have to choose the most advanced life to factory farm and eat. We certainly have more reservations against eating certain kinds of meat than can be explained purely from an evolutionary perspective - and that aspect should be expanded to cover more species. Plenty of Westerners will be outraged when the Japanese slaughter a whale but seem fine with the immense suffering in the farms in their own country. I don't think this can be reconciled if people knew just what actually went on. I'll note that personally I don't shame people for eating meat - that's just not a nice way to live and leads to immense resentment. I do think people are making the wrong choice here though.
DeWilde 5y ago
> not needs, you can thrive on a vegetarian diet Not true for everyone. I have a specific health issue and to ingest the necessary daily intake of proteins solely through non-meat source would mean ingesting a lot more carbs that I can handle for a day. Also explain how would CRISPR increase the suffering of animals?
- Timwi 5y ago
  I don't think they were claiming that it increases suffering. But it doesn't decrease it either. We should at least decrease suffering, or ideally, eliminate it. CRISPR does not constitute any progress in that regard. If anything, it gives more people more excuses to continue supporting the suffering.
  - DeWilde 5y ago
    That is correct. Ideally we will move to lab grown meat or just lab grown edibles/drinkables that contain all the nutrients you need and you get to choose the ratio of nutrients for each meal.
  - bigDinosaur 5y ago
    My thinking was that it allows us to continue to improve yields without corresponding costs being paid by the consumers. In other words, people will just keep buying huge quantities of cheap meat. I do not consider this a good thing because meat is a luxury. In this case, it's keeping meat cheap(er) despite screwing the planet with climate change.
- Spivak 5y ago
  My vegan protein powder is 20g protein for 2g carbs 2g fiber so it’s definitely possible.
matchbok 5y ago
The virtue signaling is strong here. Humans have been eating animals forever. It played a large part in our evolution. It's a normal part of life. Wringing hands over it helps nobody.
- bigDinosaur 5y ago
  This is just pure naturalistic fallacy. We have done plenty of terrible things for millions of years (rape, murder, war) but having done those for millions of years is no real justification for their continuation.

triyambakam 5y ago

I felt sad seeing the cows in the featured article :( Friends not food.

throwaway73838 5y ago

I agree. I think eating meat is abhorrent, and genetically mutilating animals even more so. Selective breeding is one thing, but this opens the doors to all kinds of ‘design gene’ questions that I don’t think the world is ready for, or ever should be.

furstenheim 5y ago
How is selective breeding good? There are dog breeds that have respiratory problems all their lives. CRISPR should open the door to genetic improvements without genetic diversity loss
- simulate-me 5y ago
  The breathing issues found in certain breeds of dogs aren't from diversity loss. Rather, the breathing issues are caused by the traits being bred for. Pugs, for instance, are bred to have small noses, so small that they restrict airflow. CRISPR could exacerbate the desire of breeders to express physical characteristics in dogs without considerations for the impact of those changes on the well-being of the dog.

0des 5y ago

I respect your choice, and hope some day the work we see here can open doors to a lab grown alternative that eliminates the suffering so that you also can experience the joy of a ribeye, bone-in with a compound butter and runny egg.

koonsolo 5y ago
I also eat meat, so not going to play the saint here. But it seems you have absolutely no remorse of what happens to those animals that end up on your plate. Or you do and try to cover it up by playing the tough guy. I try to cut back on meat as much as I can. I also enjoy some ribs, but I don't eat meat every day. And when I do, I try to stick with fish or poultry. I suggest you watch some slaughterhouse videos, so you know what those animals have to go through to end up as tasty meat on your plate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTenibfTutI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTenibfTutI . Please watch it all up until the end. If you still have no remorse, you are for sure a psychopath.
- 0des 5y ago
  A psychopath? Who's the tough guy?
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    So which one is it? Are you just PLAYING the role of a tough guy, or do you really have no remorse when watching that video?
- naoqj 5y ago
  That video is slowed down in the most shocking moments to make it look like the suffering of the animals lasts for longer.
  - jlokier 5y ago
    Acute suffering and fear tends to last longer, subjectively, for humans. Psychological time stretches. Perhaps slowing it down is a more accurate portrayal of the animal's experience than not doing so.

landa 5y ago

You're 100% right about this. What's going on right now with mass slaughter of animals will hopefully end one day soon and be looked back on as the darkest time in the Earth's history.

thunderbong 5y ago

We weep for the blood of a bird, but not for the blood of a fish. Blessed are those who have voice. - Mamoru Oshii

pessimizer 5y ago
Lots of people don't eat fish.

Knufen 5y ago

This is probably gonna sound a bit dystopian, but would you eat beef if we eliminated suffering with CRISPR? I don't get to talk to a lot of vegetarians/vegans so honest question.

bigDinosaur 5y ago
I don't know. My moral intitutions and reasoning fall apart if you remove suffering from the equation. By that logic it would also be okay to farm and eat humans if we eliminated their ability to suffer using CRISPR. What would you think of that? I don't even know where to start.
- genousti 5y ago
  - bigDinosaur 5y ago
    That'd be an okay but irrelevant to meat eating point if I was against supply chain transparency and stopping slavery. I am very much happy to see anyone who has enslaved anyone going to prison for the rest of their life though, and I'm very happy for companies to find alternative sources to warlords and corrupt banana republics.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    First, poor argument: https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/ Second, Apple is actually trying to make sure that doesn’t happen: https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Combat-Human-Trafficking-and-Slavery-in-Supply-Chain-2020.pdf https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Comb...
  - lopis 5y ago
    > Yet u write this probably on an iphone or whatever computer where rate minerals where harvested by slaves who died doing so. This is the lowest effort meme argument commonly found in any animal rights discussions. Yes there are problems in the world. My choice of phone makes barely any difference ethically; thus I must leave society behind, lest im banned from arguing about anything at all? No, you evaluate what you have power over and act accordingly. I have access to all my nutrition in plat based food, so that's what I eat. I can afford and am able to use a Fairphone, so I do that. Defeatist comments like yours don't drive discussion nor help anyone, but those too lazy or accommodated to re-evaluate their impact on the world.

kmlx 5y ago

> you can thrive on a vegetarian diet as long as you take vitamins B12, D and some iron, you should be fine. but having been meat eaters for 2.4 million years will be hard to shake off. if anything eating beef will increase in the future as more and more people rise to the “middle class”. we should probably take this into consideration and it’s implications, no matter how you feel about the subject.

bigDinosaur 5y ago
People bring this up, but like, is eating dog okay? Even if you say yes, is factory farming them okay? Is eating human okay? No - just because we may have had meat in our diet for millions of years doesn't mean we have to choose the most advanced life to factory farm and eat. We certainly have more reservations against eating certain kinds of meat than can be explained purely from an evolutionary perspective - and that aspect should be expanded to cover more species. Plenty of Westerners will be outraged when the Japanese slaughter a whale but seem fine with the immense suffering in the farms in their own country. I don't think this can be reconciled if people knew just what actually went on. I'll note that personally I don't shame people for eating meat - that's just not a nice way to live and leads to immense resentment. I do think people are making the wrong choice here though.

DeWilde 5y ago

> not needs, you can thrive on a vegetarian diet Not true for everyone. I have a specific health issue and to ingest the necessary daily intake of proteins solely through non-meat source would mean ingesting a lot more carbs that I can handle for a day. Also explain how would CRISPR increase the suffering of animals?

Timwi 5y ago
I don't think they were claiming that it increases suffering. But it doesn't decrease it either. We should at least decrease suffering, or ideally, eliminate it. CRISPR does not constitute any progress in that regard. If anything, it gives more people more excuses to continue supporting the suffering.
- DeWilde 5y ago
  That is correct. Ideally we will move to lab grown meat or just lab grown edibles/drinkables that contain all the nutrients you need and you get to choose the ratio of nutrients for each meal.
- bigDinosaur 5y ago
  My thinking was that it allows us to continue to improve yields without corresponding costs being paid by the consumers. In other words, people will just keep buying huge quantities of cheap meat. I do not consider this a good thing because meat is a luxury. In this case, it's keeping meat cheap(er) despite screwing the planet with climate change.
Spivak 5y ago
My vegan protein powder is 20g protein for 2g carbs 2g fiber so it’s definitely possible.

matchbok 5y ago

The virtue signaling is strong here. Humans have been eating animals forever. It played a large part in our evolution. It's a normal part of life. Wringing hands over it helps nobody.

bigDinosaur 5y ago
This is just pure naturalistic fallacy. We have done plenty of terrible things for millions of years (rape, murder, war) but having done those for millions of years is no real justification for their continuation.