6 ms·

I live in Kazakhstan and while I don't have any evidence, I'm pretty sure that many huge western companies operating here bribed officials. I don't think that'

I live in Kazakhstan and while I don't have any evidence, I'm pretty sure that many huge western companies operating here bribed officials. I don't think that's necessary part of local culture. Of course in poor country officials with $200/month salary are happy to get $1000 gift for signing $100 000 agreement. Western companies are huge part of corruption source here. That's my opinion. I've heard that Ikea decided not to bribe officials, so they didn't get approval to build their shops here. I kind of applaud them if that's true and I wish every so-called civilized company took that stance. But money doesn't stink I guess.

fallingknife 5y ago
> I don't think that's necessary part of local culture > Ikea decided not to bribe officials, so they didn't get approval to build their shops here Pick one
- pempem 5y ago
  The OP's comment feels like debating about origin. Is it due to local culture or the standard being set by external actors and their culture
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - buran77 5y ago
    MS has also been involved in bribery scandals all over Europe. Sometimes they were found guilty, sometimes the other party to the corruption charge found a way to make it all go away (more corruption). But when you do this all over the place the "it's the way things are done there" changes to "it's the way you do things". Every time MS is firing a couple of "rogue employees" because they got caught, not because they did it. And nothing changes at leadership level. Their way of doing things certainly extends to the SEC and DOJ via more convoluted and corrupt influencing paths.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  I can tell you that on a "small" scale that's not something required, at least I did not pay bribes in my little life, although sometimes it could make things faster or cheaper I guess, but that's my principles as I hate corruption. Now Ikea-scale that could be unavoidable but I prefer not to have Ikea rather than living with corrupt officials around riding in their Mercedeses, showing off that living a honest life is strictly worse than living a criminal life. So children learn that you have to demand bribes to be successful in this life. That's never-ending circle. And worse of all it's partially fueled by foreign companies.
q1w2 5y ago
Same in India. In fact, public officials are paid very little with the expectation that they will supplement their income with bribes. It's just absolutely normal to get literally anything done with a government office in almost any non-western country.
- user3939382 5y ago
  > public officials are paid very little with the expectation that they will supplement their income with bribes. I'd like to offer my own perspective on this issue, having spent a lot of time in the third-world, that may not be obvious to many of us in the western world or from more developed economies. Many countries that are struggling with i.e. building robust transportation and energy infrastructure, are also struggling with the infrastructure that enables the reliable collection and enforcement of taxes. These issues happen to be related. Tax collection in the US isn't perfect, but it generally works. What do you do when huge parts of your economy runs on cash or when huge swaths of your population don't even have bank accounts? There's a joke that bribes in the third-world are "directly paid taxes". There's a kernel of truth there. If Microsoft pays $100 in tax that's paid to a govt salary, versus that tax not existing and them paying it to the same official, what's the difference? Loss of accountability and oversight, yes. BUT -- the reason bribery is so egregious in the West is that the officials taking the bribes are already fairly compensated. Also, the Western system of government is filled with unethical bribe-analogues, in for example the lobbying system we have, worse in some sense is that this unethical behavior is codified into law in a way the general public may not agree with but has no real way of changing (refer to Princeton voter preference study). Consider all that when these "corruption index" lists are published where the US are the good guys with a green-colored country and countries in the third-world are red-colored bad guys. /rant
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Even in that light bribes are still bad. With a tax I can look at the law and know exactly how much I need to pay, and also how much my competition paid. That later is a big deal, if my competitor different from me, then they have an advantage over me (sometimes this is a larger bribe ensuring better service, sometimes it is a cheaper bribe would have done the same). Also, bribes are not always money. Many are paid in sex. Not only does this exploit women (as if that isn't bad enough), but it also means it may not be every possible for me to compete so long as the woman my competitor got is willing.
ipaddr 5y ago
If Ikea did not bribe and failed to get approval perhaps it is part of the local culture of getting anything approved
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Now if only people in the west would apply this same logic to their own communities. Whole Foods isn't donating money to the private school that the children of some local politician to attend because of their belief in the school's mission. They're doing it because they want to redevelop a strip mall and a new soccer field costs less than anything that involves a courtroom.
  - ethagknight 5y ago
    I know you are trying to make an example of bribes, politicians, and private schooling, but honestly Whole Foods donating funds for a new playing field for a school and also redeveloping a strip mall instead of paying a bunch of attorneys to occupy space in a public courtroom sounds like... a win win win?
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      I don't necessarily disagree but I'm not 100% sold on the high wealth floor that's required to access western corruption being a good thing.
- stefan_ 5y ago
  There is an important distinction in this law. Paying an official to do something he would have done anyway is not a bribe, even if in the absence of it they might have never "gotten around to it". It's specifically things like this article alleges, kickbacks to officials involved in procurement decisions. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act#Exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act#...
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> I live in Kazakhstan and while I don't have any evidence, I'm pretty sure that many huge western companies operating here bribed officials. If the country requires bribes to operate in, and the western companies are operating in that country, then you can just do some simple logic to derive that they are bribing people. However, a lot of western companies will simply just form legitimate contracts with local companies that will then "fix" everything for them. Things get even murkier when the western company forms a join venture with a controlling share local company.
mullingitover 5y ago
The irony is the bribes are, of course, a requirement to operate in the US as a large corporation, but here they’re laundered as “lobbying” and “campaign donations.”
- mulmen 5y ago
  It’s really not the same thing. Bribery undermines the rule of law. Lobbying helps form it. The difference may seem subtle but it isn’t. If you believe US lawmakers are taking bribes please provide evidence because that is a Big Deal. If you believe lobbying is harmful to our democratic processes please present that argument directly.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    > If you believe lobbying is harmful to our democratic processes please present that argument directly. Not OP, but it is easy to understand how lobbying is too close to a quid pro quo scheme. If a politician receives donations in any form, in order to push for legislation that may benefit the donors, how is it any different from bribery?
    - mulmen 5y ago
      The rule of law. Subtlety matters. Calling lobbying bribery is apathy, which is uninteresting. Even worse, it’s ineffective. > If a politician receives donations in any form, in order to push for legislation that may benefit the donors, how is it any different from bribery? So, should I donate to a mayoral campaign that aligns with my beliefs? Is all money in politics evil, or is it just a matter of degrees? What if that mayoral candidate is a “political outsider” who relies on “grassroots support” to enable them to quit their job and focus on the campaign? I’m an expert in my field. Should I inform my elected leaders on the nuances of that field when they write legislation that relates to it? Or should laws only be written by the ignorant? How ignorant should they be? Trade is a quid pro quo scheme. Pretending all exchanges of value are the same is, again, uninteresting. How can such a position be engaged? And to what end? Where’s the line between bribery and democracy? It’s not easy to draw. Calling lobbying bribery is an apathetic oversimplification. It’s uninteresting and isn’t a position that can be engaged constructively.
jollybean 5y ago
Don't for a second suggest that this is about 'foreign companies bribing their way into something'. It's 100% powerful officials 'demanding kickbacks' for contracts and business - which is exactly 'the culture' that goes on in literally most of the world. The comments here are (and I don't mean to be denigrating) naive. Imagine that for all major contracts, say 10% will split between the buyer, possibly the 'local official' making the sale, possibly a 3rd party connection. It's been like that 'always'. The only way this will change, is if local government require it to happen. IKEA tried to hold out in Russia and they did for years. Until they caved paid the local mafia-ish guy his cut. And then Moscow got IKEAS. That's it. No cut, no IKEA. IKEA does not bribe people in US, Canada, Germany. (or at least not in any systematic way)
throwaway290 5y ago
Interesting fact: this used to be the case in Ukraine (IKEA negotiated for years and I believe publicly alleged corruption); yet finally in 2021 they opened the first small-format physical store. Knowing how things were actually improving lately makes the invasion doubly devastating...

fallingknife 5y ago

> I don't think that's necessary part of local culture > Ikea decided not to bribe officials, so they didn't get approval to build their shops here Pick one

pempem 5y ago
The OP's comment feels like debating about origin. Is it due to local culture or the standard being set by external actors and their culture
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- buran77 5y ago
  MS has also been involved in bribery scandals all over Europe. Sometimes they were found guilty, sometimes the other party to the corruption charge found a way to make it all go away (more corruption). But when you do this all over the place the "it's the way things are done there" changes to "it's the way you do things". Every time MS is firing a couple of "rogue employees" because they got caught, not because they did it. And nothing changes at leadership level. Their way of doing things certainly extends to the SEC and DOJ via more convoluted and corrupt influencing paths.
vbezhenar 5y ago
I can tell you that on a "small" scale that's not something required, at least I did not pay bribes in my little life, although sometimes it could make things faster or cheaper I guess, but that's my principles as I hate corruption. Now Ikea-scale that could be unavoidable but I prefer not to have Ikea rather than living with corrupt officials around riding in their Mercedeses, showing off that living a honest life is strictly worse than living a criminal life. So children learn that you have to demand bribes to be successful in this life. That's never-ending circle. And worse of all it's partially fueled by foreign companies.

q1w2 5y ago

Same in India. In fact, public officials are paid very little with the expectation that they will supplement their income with bribes. It's just absolutely normal to get literally anything done with a government office in almost any non-western country.

user3939382 5y ago
> public officials are paid very little with the expectation that they will supplement their income with bribes. I'd like to offer my own perspective on this issue, having spent a lot of time in the third-world, that may not be obvious to many of us in the western world or from more developed economies. Many countries that are struggling with i.e. building robust transportation and energy infrastructure, are also struggling with the infrastructure that enables the reliable collection and enforcement of taxes. These issues happen to be related. Tax collection in the US isn't perfect, but it generally works. What do you do when huge parts of your economy runs on cash or when huge swaths of your population don't even have bank accounts? There's a joke that bribes in the third-world are "directly paid taxes". There's a kernel of truth there. If Microsoft pays $100 in tax that's paid to a govt salary, versus that tax not existing and them paying it to the same official, what's the difference? Loss of accountability and oversight, yes. BUT -- the reason bribery is so egregious in the West is that the officials taking the bribes are already fairly compensated. Also, the Western system of government is filled with unethical bribe-analogues, in for example the lobbying system we have, worse in some sense is that this unethical behavior is codified into law in a way the general public may not agree with but has no real way of changing (refer to Princeton voter preference study). Consider all that when these "corruption index" lists are published where the US are the good guys with a green-colored country and countries in the third-world are red-colored bad guys. /rant
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bluGill 5y ago
  Even in that light bribes are still bad. With a tax I can look at the law and know exactly how much I need to pay, and also how much my competition paid. That later is a big deal, if my competitor different from me, then they have an advantage over me (sometimes this is a larger bribe ensuring better service, sometimes it is a cheaper bribe would have done the same). Also, bribes are not always money. Many are paid in sex. Not only does this exploit women (as if that isn't bad enough), but it also means it may not be every possible for me to compete so long as the woman my competitor got is willing.

ipaddr 5y ago

If Ikea did not bribe and failed to get approval perhaps it is part of the local culture of getting anything approved

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Now if only people in the west would apply this same logic to their own communities. Whole Foods isn't donating money to the private school that the children of some local politician to attend because of their belief in the school's mission. They're doing it because they want to redevelop a strip mall and a new soccer field costs less than anything that involves a courtroom.
- ethagknight 5y ago
  I know you are trying to make an example of bribes, politicians, and private schooling, but honestly Whole Foods donating funds for a new playing field for a school and also redeveloping a strip mall instead of paying a bunch of attorneys to occupy space in a public courtroom sounds like... a win win win?
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    I don't necessarily disagree but I'm not 100% sold on the high wealth floor that's required to access western corruption being a good thing.
stefan_ 5y ago
There is an important distinction in this law. Paying an official to do something he would have done anyway is not a bribe, even if in the absence of it they might have never "gotten around to it". It's specifically things like this article alleges, kickbacks to officials involved in procurement decisions. See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act#Exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act#...

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

> I live in Kazakhstan and while I don't have any evidence, I'm pretty sure that many huge western companies operating here bribed officials. If the country requires bribes to operate in, and the western companies are operating in that country, then you can just do some simple logic to derive that they are bribing people. However, a lot of western companies will simply just form legitimate contracts with local companies that will then "fix" everything for them. Things get even murkier when the western company forms a join venture with a controlling share local company.

mullingitover 5y ago

The irony is the bribes are, of course, a requirement to operate in the US as a large corporation, but here they’re laundered as “lobbying” and “campaign donations.”

mulmen 5y ago
It’s really not the same thing. Bribery undermines the rule of law. Lobbying helps form it. The difference may seem subtle but it isn’t. If you believe US lawmakers are taking bribes please provide evidence because that is a Big Deal. If you believe lobbying is harmful to our democratic processes please present that argument directly.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  > If you believe lobbying is harmful to our democratic processes please present that argument directly. Not OP, but it is easy to understand how lobbying is too close to a quid pro quo scheme. If a politician receives donations in any form, in order to push for legislation that may benefit the donors, how is it any different from bribery?
  - mulmen 5y ago
    The rule of law. Subtlety matters. Calling lobbying bribery is apathy, which is uninteresting. Even worse, it’s ineffective. > If a politician receives donations in any form, in order to push for legislation that may benefit the donors, how is it any different from bribery? So, should I donate to a mayoral campaign that aligns with my beliefs? Is all money in politics evil, or is it just a matter of degrees? What if that mayoral candidate is a “political outsider” who relies on “grassroots support” to enable them to quit their job and focus on the campaign? I’m an expert in my field. Should I inform my elected leaders on the nuances of that field when they write legislation that relates to it? Or should laws only be written by the ignorant? How ignorant should they be? Trade is a quid pro quo scheme. Pretending all exchanges of value are the same is, again, uninteresting. How can such a position be engaged? And to what end? Where’s the line between bribery and democracy? It’s not easy to draw. Calling lobbying bribery is an apathetic oversimplification. It’s uninteresting and isn’t a position that can be engaged constructively.

jollybean 5y ago

Don't for a second suggest that this is about 'foreign companies bribing their way into something'. It's 100% powerful officials 'demanding kickbacks' for contracts and business - which is exactly 'the culture' that goes on in literally most of the world. The comments here are (and I don't mean to be denigrating) naive. Imagine that for all major contracts, say 10% will split between the buyer, possibly the 'local official' making the sale, possibly a 3rd party connection. It's been like that 'always'. The only way this will change, is if local government require it to happen. IKEA tried to hold out in Russia and they did for years. Until they caved paid the local mafia-ish guy his cut. And then Moscow got IKEAS. That's it. No cut, no IKEA. IKEA does not bribe people in US, Canada, Germany. (or at least not in any systematic way)

throwaway290 5y ago

Interesting fact: this used to be the case in Ukraine (IKEA negotiated for years and I believe publicly alleged corruption); yet finally in 2021 they opened the first small-format physical store. Knowing how things were actually improving lately makes the invasion doubly devastating...