8 ms·

Brain implant lets man with complete paralysis spell out thoughts

206 points by andrewgioia 5y ago

juice_bus 5y ago
One more step towards Lock In[0] sort of becoming real. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_In
ramesh31 5y ago
Now imagine he had a cochlear implant with bluetooth that allowed for two way communication. That's telepathy.
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  First episode of Shark Tank[1] has you covered. [1] https://sharktanktales.com/ionic-ear-shark-tank-update/ https://sharktanktales.com/ionic-ear-shark-tank-update/
hprotagonist 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30773013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30773013 Previously: The study comes in the context of past findings of serious misconduct against Birbaumer and Chaudhary. The findings concerned the data and analysis in two previous papers published in PLoS Biology. The two articles, subsequently retracted, also concerned the use of brain activity to decode the thoughts of completely locked-in patients. The German research agency, Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft (DFG) found that the scientists failed to show complete analysis of their data and patient examinations in these previous studies and made false statements. The allegations do not relate to the findings of the current research which involved different methodology, supervision and analysis. In a statement to Technology Networks, Birbaumer said that the new study “shows that all accusations are wrong” and suggested that additional forthcoming legal developments would further exonerate his and Chaudhary’s prior research.
adam12 5y ago
"I would like to listen to the album by Tool loud" That sentence speaks volumes to me.
- ______-_-______ 5y ago
  > he made dozens of sentences at a painstaking rate of about one character per minute It's a good thing he wanted a band with a nice short name. Imagine if he was a fan of these guys https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Paracoccidioidomicosisproctitissarcomucosis/24539 https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Paracoccidioidomicosisp...
  - ChrisGranger 5y ago
    https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Eximperituserqethhzebib%C5%A1iptugakkath%C5%A1ulweliarzaxu%C5%82um/3540378310 https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Eximperituserqethhzebib... has entered the chat.
- AdmiralAsshat 5y ago
  We don't know which Tool album he wanted, although various Rock/Metal sites that posted this article wondered if perhaps the lyrics to "Parabola" might be resonating with him at the moment.
  - excalibur 5y ago
    Might as well play them all, it's not like he has anything better to do.
- olyjohn 5y ago
  I hope that somebody got the man a stereo, and turned it way up. Not just some random bluetooth speaker crap, like a real stereo. Loud, full and clear.
- soperj 5y ago
  Honestly seems like the perfect choice considering Maynard Keenan's mother, and her struggles being the subject of a bunch of his songs.
thatjoeoverthr 5y ago
Has anyone else noticed this is sort of a permanent story? I’ve read it as news verbatim at least once a year since the 90s. It’s the “Russian bombers intercepted” of medical science. This article is better than most, acknowledging prior work but only to a few years.
- burrows 5y ago
  Are you sure it’s the same story? Or are we seeing reports of incremental improvements to technologies for communicating with locked-in people.
- icoder 5y ago
  Not sure if relevant but it's good to distinguish techniques that are in the end based on muscle activity, which, even if the tiniest ones around the eye, give VERY strong electrical signals compared to brain activity. That's what basically makes the 'consumer variants' tick as well. This article seems to be actually, entirely, and directly based on brain activity.
- AlwaysRock 5y ago
  There is a difference between using a brain implant and other devices like eye trackers and some type of muscle translator. I've seen a lot of the latter. I don't think I've ever seen the former.
coffeeblack 5y ago
Isn’t that what Musk’s Neuralink is doing? They automated the invasive surgery to install the device, and their device has thousands of wires to read neuronal signals.
- itsoktocry 5y ago
  Is there any peer-reviewed literature on what technology or advances Neuralink has? It's purported to do these things, but a lot of what I've seen is skeptical.
  - JPLeRouzic 5y ago
    There are a few publications by people with some connection with Neuralink. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6914248/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6914248/ (Elon Musk is author of this publication) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34140486/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34140486/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33955717/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33955717/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33894832/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33894832/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33784612/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33784612/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33236720/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33236720/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33080229/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33080229/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31996696/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31996696/
    - bcj7393nsk 5y ago
      [dead]
lettergram 5y ago
I’ve seen and built systems that are far less invasive — https://agenda.hep.wisc.edu/event/792/contributions/18594/attachments/6173/6931/Brain_Computer_Interfaces_-_DSP_of_SSVEP.pptx https://agenda.hep.wisc.edu/event/792/contributions/18594/at... With accuracy on par or better than described: > He eventually explained to the team that he modulated the tone by trying to move his eyes. But he did not always succeed. Only on 107 of 135 days reported in the study could he match a series of target tones with 80% accuracy, and only on 44 of those 107 could he produce an intelligible sentence. In fact, some of these successful efforts were done back in the early 2000s. From the article: > Researchers inserted two square electrode arrays, 3.2 millimeters wide, into a part of the brain that controls movement. When they asked the man to try to move his hands, feet, head, and eyes, the neural signals weren’t consistent enough to answer yes-or-no questions, says Ujwal Chaudhary, a biomedical engineer and neurotechnologist at the German nonprofit ALS Voice. The speed and accuracy does take a hit using external nodes, but brain implants are frankly dangerous. They come with serious risks.
- burrows 5y ago
  Are the risks associated with invasiveness fixed (eg, there will always be at least a 1/15000 chance that a patient dies within the first year of receiving a neural implant), or can they be reduced with better technology and more understanding of the brain?
  - lettergram 5y ago
    At the moment, there will always be damage. There’s also risks associated with the surgery (that’ll be much higher than 1/15,000; you’re probably talking at least 1/1000 just for risk of initial surgery). Further, no implants last forever. They develop scar tissue around the implant. So you’ll have multiple surgeries if you survive years. Technology can mitigate much of that risk, but we are pretty far away from removing risk. We also will need multiple major independent breakthroughs.
- icoder 5y ago
  Does your less invasive solution work with fully locked in patients? Often these solutions rely (partially) on some tiny muscle activity still working, which they don't have. At least that was what I've been taught some time ago (could be early 2000s), and what's for sure hard to rule out in 'healthy' patients.
mcdonje 5y ago
50 years from now, complete paralysis will be no excuse for not having a job. /s
telesilla 5y ago
A welcome upgrade to The Diving Bell and the Butterfly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diving_Bell_and_the_Butterfly_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diving_Bell_and_the_Butter...
AussieWog93 5y ago
I started (and quit) a PhD based on the Machine Learning algorithms used for BCI systems such as this. Every 6-12 months, someone will write a puff piece about their research in order to get grant money[1]/street cred. And every time, HN responds as if it's sci-fi tech from the future and I shit on everybody's dreams. So here we go: At a glance, nothing about this system in particular is new. It seems to solve the same problems as older invasive arrays from 15 years ago, with the same deal-breaking flaw still unfixed (namely, the body rejecting the implant over time). He had OK-ish performance in a single patient (one character per minute on a good day), but single-patient performance is misleading as it's very common for a system to work with one "golden" patient but not others. Interestingly, no real research has been done (at least, none as of 4 years ago) to look into why this is the case - most "breakthroughs" are people throwing machine-learning spaghetti at the wall to cover up deliberately flawed benchmarking. (To be fair, this is more of a comment on the field as a whole than this particular trial. His results seem honest and humble.) The field is going nowhere, and this article is yet another shining example of this. Nothing will ever be achieved until we abandon the current paradigm and actually learn more about the underlying neurophysiology (or possibly create batshit-insane sensors). [1] They actually explicitly mention this in the article this time, which is pretty bold: >Chaudhary’s foundation is seeking funding to give similar implants to several more people with ALS. He estimates the system would cost close to $500,000 over the first 2 years.
- daedalus_f 5y ago
  As pointed out by hprotagonist in a comment below, there have also been claims of research misconduct claims made against the principle researchers involved with this group. So not exactly promising. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30773013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30773013
- soperj 5y ago
  Curious why they go through each letter saying yes or no, instead of just teaching them how to pick letters based on a binary output (ie: a= 00000, b=00001)? you'd think the characters per minute would increase dramatically.
andrewgioia 5y ago
Unbelievably hopeful and tragic at the same time. That he could learn to control electrode implants to communicate (in an albeit "rudimentary" way) is just incredible, but I can't imagine the feelings of unfairness at such a young age for him. Hopefully there's a path here to help others communicate much longer than they'd otherwise be able to. One of the other sentences he made out was "I love my cool son," which hit particularly close to home given I'm the same age as well. Oy.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
a0-prw 5y ago
How did they get informed consent ?
- mkmk 5y ago
  From the article: "His wife and sister provided written consent for the surgery."

206 points by andrewgioia 5y ago

One more step towards Lock In[0] sort of becoming real. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_In

ramesh31 5y ago

Now imagine he had a cochlear implant with bluetooth that allowed for two way communication. That's telepathy.

robertlagrant 5y ago
First episode of Shark Tank[1] has you covered. [1] https://sharktanktales.com/ionic-ear-shark-tank-update/ https://sharktanktales.com/ionic-ear-shark-tank-update/

hprotagonist 5y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30773013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30773013 Previously: The study comes in the context of past findings of serious misconduct against Birbaumer and Chaudhary. The findings concerned the data and analysis in two previous papers published in PLoS Biology. The two articles, subsequently retracted, also concerned the use of brain activity to decode the thoughts of completely locked-in patients. The German research agency, Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft (DFG) found that the scientists failed to show complete analysis of their data and patient examinations in these previous studies and made false statements. The allegations do not relate to the findings of the current research which involved different methodology, supervision and analysis. In a statement to Technology Networks, Birbaumer said that the new study “shows that all accusations are wrong” and suggested that additional forthcoming legal developments would further exonerate his and Chaudhary’s prior research.

adam12 5y ago

"I would like to listen to the album by Tool loud" That sentence speaks volumes to me.

______-_-______ 5y ago
> he made dozens of sentences at a painstaking rate of about one character per minute It's a good thing he wanted a band with a nice short name. Imagine if he was a fan of these guys https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Paracoccidioidomicosisproctitissarcomucosis/24539 https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Paracoccidioidomicosisp...
- ChrisGranger 5y ago
  https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Eximperituserqethhzebib%C5%A1iptugakkath%C5%A1ulweliarzaxu%C5%82um/3540378310 https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Eximperituserqethhzebib... has entered the chat.
AdmiralAsshat 5y ago
We don't know which Tool album he wanted, although various Rock/Metal sites that posted this article wondered if perhaps the lyrics to "Parabola" might be resonating with him at the moment.
- excalibur 5y ago
  Might as well play them all, it's not like he has anything better to do.
olyjohn 5y ago
I hope that somebody got the man a stereo, and turned it way up. Not just some random bluetooth speaker crap, like a real stereo. Loud, full and clear.
soperj 5y ago
Honestly seems like the perfect choice considering Maynard Keenan's mother, and her struggles being the subject of a bunch of his songs.

thatjoeoverthr 5y ago

Has anyone else noticed this is sort of a permanent story? I’ve read it as news verbatim at least once a year since the 90s. It’s the “Russian bombers intercepted” of medical science. This article is better than most, acknowledging prior work but only to a few years.

burrows 5y ago
Are you sure it’s the same story? Or are we seeing reports of incremental improvements to technologies for communicating with locked-in people.
icoder 5y ago
Not sure if relevant but it's good to distinguish techniques that are in the end based on muscle activity, which, even if the tiniest ones around the eye, give VERY strong electrical signals compared to brain activity. That's what basically makes the 'consumer variants' tick as well. This article seems to be actually, entirely, and directly based on brain activity.
AlwaysRock 5y ago
There is a difference between using a brain implant and other devices like eye trackers and some type of muscle translator. I've seen a lot of the latter. I don't think I've ever seen the former.

coffeeblack 5y ago

Isn’t that what Musk’s Neuralink is doing? They automated the invasive surgery to install the device, and their device has thousands of wires to read neuronal signals.

itsoktocry 5y ago
Is there any peer-reviewed literature on what technology or advances Neuralink has? It's purported to do these things, but a lot of what I've seen is skeptical.
- JPLeRouzic 5y ago
  There are a few publications by people with some connection with Neuralink. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6914248/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6914248/ (Elon Musk is author of this publication) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34140486/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34140486/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33955717/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33955717/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33894832/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33894832/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33784612/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33784612/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33236720/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33236720/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33080229/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33080229/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31996696/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31996696/
  - bcj7393nsk 5y ago
    [dead]

lettergram 5y ago

I’ve seen and built systems that are far less invasive — https://agenda.hep.wisc.edu/event/792/contributions/18594/attachments/6173/6931/Brain_Computer_Interfaces_-_DSP_of_SSVEP.pptx https://agenda.hep.wisc.edu/event/792/contributions/18594/at... With accuracy on par or better than described: > He eventually explained to the team that he modulated the tone by trying to move his eyes. But he did not always succeed. Only on 107 of 135 days reported in the study could he match a series of target tones with 80% accuracy, and only on 44 of those 107 could he produce an intelligible sentence. In fact, some of these successful efforts were done back in the early 2000s. From the article: > Researchers inserted two square electrode arrays, 3.2 millimeters wide, into a part of the brain that controls movement. When they asked the man to try to move his hands, feet, head, and eyes, the neural signals weren’t consistent enough to answer yes-or-no questions, says Ujwal Chaudhary, a biomedical engineer and neurotechnologist at the German nonprofit ALS Voice. The speed and accuracy does take a hit using external nodes, but brain implants are frankly dangerous. They come with serious risks.

burrows 5y ago
Are the risks associated with invasiveness fixed (eg, there will always be at least a 1/15000 chance that a patient dies within the first year of receiving a neural implant), or can they be reduced with better technology and more understanding of the brain?
- lettergram 5y ago
  At the moment, there will always be damage. There’s also risks associated with the surgery (that’ll be much higher than 1/15,000; you’re probably talking at least 1/1000 just for risk of initial surgery). Further, no implants last forever. They develop scar tissue around the implant. So you’ll have multiple surgeries if you survive years. Technology can mitigate much of that risk, but we are pretty far away from removing risk. We also will need multiple major independent breakthroughs.
icoder 5y ago
Does your less invasive solution work with fully locked in patients? Often these solutions rely (partially) on some tiny muscle activity still working, which they don't have. At least that was what I've been taught some time ago (could be early 2000s), and what's for sure hard to rule out in 'healthy' patients.

mcdonje 5y ago

50 years from now, complete paralysis will be no excuse for not having a job. /s

telesilla 5y ago

A welcome upgrade to The Diving Bell and the Butterfly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diving_Bell_and_the_Butterfly_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diving_Bell_and_the_Butter...

AussieWog93 5y ago

I started (and quit) a PhD based on the Machine Learning algorithms used for BCI systems such as this. Every 6-12 months, someone will write a puff piece about their research in order to get grant money[1]/street cred. And every time, HN responds as if it's sci-fi tech from the future and I shit on everybody's dreams. So here we go: At a glance, nothing about this system in particular is new. It seems to solve the same problems as older invasive arrays from 15 years ago, with the same deal-breaking flaw still unfixed (namely, the body rejecting the implant over time). He had OK-ish performance in a single patient (one character per minute on a good day), but single-patient performance is misleading as it's very common for a system to work with one "golden" patient but not others. Interestingly, no real research has been done (at least, none as of 4 years ago) to look into why this is the case - most "breakthroughs" are people throwing machine-learning spaghetti at the wall to cover up deliberately flawed benchmarking. (To be fair, this is more of a comment on the field as a whole than this particular trial. His results seem honest and humble.) The field is going nowhere, and this article is yet another shining example of this. Nothing will ever be achieved until we abandon the current paradigm and actually learn more about the underlying neurophysiology (or possibly create batshit-insane sensors). [1] They actually explicitly mention this in the article this time, which is pretty bold: >Chaudhary’s foundation is seeking funding to give similar implants to several more people with ALS. He estimates the system would cost close to $500,000 over the first 2 years.

daedalus_f 5y ago
As pointed out by hprotagonist in a comment below, there have also been claims of research misconduct claims made against the principle researchers involved with this group. So not exactly promising. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30773013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30773013
soperj 5y ago
Curious why they go through each letter saying yes or no, instead of just teaching them how to pick letters based on a binary output (ie: a= 00000, b=00001)? you'd think the characters per minute would increase dramatically.

andrewgioia 5y ago

Unbelievably hopeful and tragic at the same time. That he could learn to control electrode implants to communicate (in an albeit "rudimentary" way) is just incredible, but I can't imagine the feelings of unfairness at such a young age for him. Hopefully there's a path here to help others communicate much longer than they'd otherwise be able to. One of the other sentences he made out was "I love my cool son," which hit particularly close to home given I'm the same age as well. Oy.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

a0-prw 5y ago

How did they get informed consent ?

mkmk 5y ago
From the article: "His wife and sister provided written consent for the surgery."