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‘I’m Old, Not an Idiot.’ One Man’s Protest Gets Attention of Spanish Banks

148 points by ilamont 5y ago

Friday_ 5y ago
I prefer be able to pay bills, new way and old way. Because WSHTF principle. I'm preparing that someday maybe i would not be able to use smartphone or internet or bank or electricity or any other single point of failure the system depends on.
- boredumb 5y ago
  To be fair, WSHTF I have a feeling that paying e-bills isn't going to be the prevailing issue.
dusted 5y ago
paywalled
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- half_way 5y ago
  Turning off JS lets you read NYTimes articles. I use an extension (in Firefox) called Disable Javascript that makes it easy to do per site.
  - phonon 5y ago
    You can also do it directly from uBlock Origin, it's the closed tag icon. https://www.ghacks.net/2018/09/25/ublock-origin-can-block-javascript-by-default-now/ https://www.ghacks.net/2018/09/25/ublock-origin-can-block-ja...
- ur-whale 5y ago
  https://archive.md/KvHID https://archive.md/KvHID
Macha 5y ago
I've had to assist an elderly neighbour after her phone company cut off her phone service. Why? The way she had paid for it for the preceding 40 years was she would get the paper bill in mail, and then go down to the post office and organise payment using the details in that paper bill. They switched her over to paperless billing with an email that they've done so but you can opt out. She either did not understand the implications of this or missed the email, and is of the age where she would not remember when exactly she had last paid which bill. So without a paper bill to remind her, and her payment method being via the post office rather than the utility provider having billing details on record, she ended up not paying 3 months of bills and being cut off. It's not like they've offered this option to new customers for at least 15 years. So stuff like this it feels like they should just eat the cost of 12 letters per year until the remaining people availing of it age out.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I think paper invoices should continue to be the way that this is handled unless otherwise requested, if only because you are - where I live - supposed to be able to prove this sort of thing for many years to the tax man. All these electronic records can disappear into thin air without you even realizing it has happened and good luck on your tax audit 7 years into the future.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    Why would you ever need to prove this kind of transactions to the tax man as an individual? As a business it’s your duty to take care of your recordkeeping, print out the invoices if you so prefer.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      The first mortgage bill of the year typically includes tax statements for the prior year. Etc.
      - rosndo 5y ago
brezelgoring 5y ago
https://archive.md/KvHID https://archive.md/KvHID
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ilamont 5y ago
The OECD published the results of a massive survey of member countries some years ago, titled "Skills Matter" (https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_9789264258051-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_978926...). The researchers defined 4 levels of technology proficiency, based on the types of tasks users can complete successfully. There was a very good summary published here (https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/) and excerpted below. For each level, here’s the percentage of the population (averaged across the OECD countries) who performed at that level, as well as the report’s definition of the ability of people within that level: "Below Level 1” = 14% of Adult Population Being too polite to use a term like “level zero,” the OECD researchers refer to the lowest skill level as “below level 1.” This is what people below level 1 can do: “Tasks are based on well-defined problems involving the use of only one function within a generic interface to meet one explicit criterion without any categorical or inferential reasoning, or transforming of information. Few steps are required and no sub-goal has to be generated.” An example of task at this level is “Delete this email message” in an email app. Level 1 = 29% of Adult Population This is what level-1 people can do: “Tasks typically require the use of widely available and familiar technology applications, such as email software or a web browser. There is little or no navigation required to access the information or commands required to solve the problem. The tasks involve few steps and a minimal number of operators. The reply-to-all task described above requires level-1 skills. Another example of level-1 task is “Find all emails from John Smith.” Level 2 = 26% of Adult Population This is what level-2 people can do: “At this level, tasks typically require the use of both generic and more specific technology applications. For instance, the respondent may have to make use of a novel online form. Some navigation across pages and applications is required to solve the problem. The use of tools (e.g. a sort function) can facilitate the resolution of the problem. The task may involve multiple steps and operators. An example of level-2 task is “You want to find a sustainability-related document that was sent to you by John Smith in October last year.” Level 3 = 5% of Adult Population This is what this most-skilled group of people can do: “At this level, tasks typically require the use of both generic and more specific technology applications. Some navigation across pages and applications is required to solve the problem. The use of tools (e.g. a sort function) is required to make progress towards the solution. The task may involve multiple steps and operators. Integration and inferential reasoning may be needed to a large extent. The meeting room task described above requires level-3 skills. Another example of level-3 task is “You want to know what percentage of the emails sent by John Smith last month were about sustainability.” Can’t Use Computers = 26% of Adult Population The numbers for the 4 skill levels don’t sum to 100% because a large proportion of the respondents never attempted the tasks, being unable to use computers. In total, across the OECD countries, 26% of adults were unable to use a computer. That one quarter of the population can’t use a computer at all is the most serious element of the digital divide. To a great extent, this problem is caused by computers still being much too complicated for many people. Let that phrase sink in: across the OECD countries, 26% of adults were unable to use a computer. In some countries like Japan, the number is even higher (about 1/3 of Japan's population can't use computers, which may reflect the aging population, poor interface design, or some other factor.)
naoqj 5y ago
- steve_g 5y ago
  The article says that his Parkinson's tremor makes using the ATM difficult. As a guy with tremor, I can tell you that it sucks. There are some things I can't physically do now, even though my brain works fine.
  - naoqj 5y ago
    I think it makes sense to ask for accomodations if you have a disability, but this movement is nothing like that. I've seen it with my own eyes.
- namelessoracle 5y ago
  Dude has Parkinson's. Lots of older people also have serious vision problems. (and as much we stare at screens all day we should respect the hell out of this issue) Also lots of old people have arthritis. Tell me next how people asking for accessibility options are a pain in your ass.
  - mike50 5y ago
    ATMs have voice prompts. Look for the headphone plug.
- deberon 5y ago
  I hope when you become an elder the next generation shows you the respect you are currently lacking.
  - naoqj 5y ago
    I hope that when I become an elder I will keep up with the progress of the world so I don't become a burden to others.
    - 5y ago
inetknght 5y ago
It's not just old people with this problem. Many younger people who've been victims of online fraud, and now have trouble with online accounts, fall into the same category.
- throwaway29303 5y ago
  Interesting. Could you please give us more details about this?
  - inetknght 5y ago
    Sure. 1. lose access to your email. this can happen many ways -- whether your email account was compromised or your domain was lost or you forgot your password. 2. ??? welp good luck getting those oh-so-important bills and notices. and good luck resetting your access Here's another scenario: 1. lose access to your email ten years ago and have to go through all that. now you're averse to any service even ten years later wanting to exclusively do business online Speaking from experience. Here's a third scenario: 1. don't "lose" access to your email. instead, get inundated with spam and phishing attempts. to combat that, create new emails. good luck changing your email address! I still have banks that send notices to email addresses that were completely removed from the account and present that same email address as a second factor for authorization; I'm very not-impressed with Chase bank. I fear the day that email address ever gets deleted specifically because so many businesses either don't allow changing the email or still use the email after it's been removed from the account
  - pvaldes 5y ago
    There are a lot of recent changes that are really stupid. To have an opened bussiness in Spain now, you need to provide the government an email. The excuse is that they want to save paper and stop using the standard post. So you need to pay for internet access. There are still 5 millions of people in Spain that live in rural areas where they don't have a good access to internet or don't have access at all. Though luck if you are one of they. They will put all important legal messages related with your activity in that mail. So if you lose the access to that email (or is hacked for a month and some mails are removed silently) now you have a problem. Missing the latest legal change or government requirement means that now you are doing things illegally or that you are refusing to provide them data about your company that they asked for. There is a liability and legal consequences attached. But the mail just will tell you (genius move) that the government wants to tell you "something", but not what. To retrieve this message you need to provide a phone number so they will send you a code by watsup necessary to access the info. So now you need to use a Facebook app, want it or not, because the government "cares for your privacy". The government will not receive you now without a cite, arranged by phone or web, so you can't just walk into the building and show your ID card to ask what they want. If you think that you can just visit the gov web page, good luck with that. Your important messages are somewhere in that black hole, as unreachable as in the bottom of the ocean. So you need a phone, but neither a normal desktop phone nor an old reliable Nokia will be accepted. You need to provide a mobile of the spy-phone type. Because for example, to receive your covid passport you need to scan a barcode now. So you must have a camera in your phone and an OS able to install an run an external app to scan 3d barcodes. Do you want to know why asking for covid passport in bars was a failure? This. And if you have an crash car and the police emits a traffic report, they will give you a ticket full of 3D Codes linking to the report, the extra info, the laws that apply, and your rights. No spy-phone?, you can't access to your info. They could just provide a link, a short chain of characters that is the universal way to navigate internet, but not. That would be too easy. I had been contacted by phone by somebody in the government encouraging me to use their services more. I agreed to provide a mail to receive more info and some weeks later received a mail, asking me to provide a phone in order to access the info (so they can call me asking for a mail maybe?). So either you agree to have a phone that tracks all your life now, or you are treated as a sub-citizen with less rights.
wink 5y ago
It's kinda funny (in the sad way) that banks here are closing their branches and at the same time their online banking sucks (not even proper 2FA) and without the pandemic I still wouldn't be able to pay without cash in most bakeries. This is Germany.
harperlee 5y ago
Some important context that the article overlook: Spain was until recently the country with most bank branches per citizen, and after the financial crisis the number of banks has decreased from about 60 to about 6 due to M&A activity. Merges and acquisitions continue to be planned. In the last 5 years, a third of all branches has been closed.
Terretta 5y ago
Anyone happen to know the good reason retirees at 80 years old need hours extended outside the daytime window? Of all segments, superficially seems they'd be the most able to visit a branch during business day. But a second thought says that's probably failing to think in their shoes. For example, if they are less able to get around than younger segments, the issue could be being taken to the bank by a working family member who can only take them before or after the driver's working hours. (But driving is a US thing, while EU is chock full of busses, so maybe it's not driver, maybe it's availability of someone just 'accompanying' them.) Other reasons? As our population ages, and depending on the pool of problems causing the need for extended hours, I'm wondering if there's some service that could be offered to resolve whatever the collection of reasons are across not just banking but anything with limited hours that retirees need.
- masswerk 5y ago
  The real problem here is that there are no brick and mortar branche offices with regular business hours any more, only special appointments to be booked using an app.
  - ilamont 5y ago
    Yes. My mother was unable to get a cashier's check at the local MegaBank branch on short notice because of this.
bell-cot 5y ago
Spain is not America, for the ADA ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Ac... ) to apply. Still, I wonder what legal the situation is in the U.S., for that sort of "just tell 'em that they have to use our..." corporate cost-cutting, at less-able customer expense.
joshstrange 5y ago
> it hurts to see that the digital world has dehumanized us to the point that loyalty has lost all of its worth sigh, this has almost nothing to do with the "digital" world as much as it does with the fact that corporations never cared. If they could have saved a single cent by moving to "tellers"/ATMS that were mechanical in nature, 51 years ago when he first opened his account, they would have. The corporations were never "loyal".
- akhmatova 5y ago
  Sigh, it does have to do with the digital world actually (in that everyone now seems to think that everyone is on their platform. Further, it has been been observed that digital systems promote cognitive fatigue and empathy depletion across the board). There's no need to be so dismissive. Sigh.
  - 52-6F-62 5y ago
    Indeed. There are many things computers are amazing at doing (that's why I find them fascinating and enjoy working on them from time to time)—but human empathy isn't one of them.
    - joshstrange 5y ago
      Computers didn't choose to close down a branch or limit its hours, humans did.
      - akhmatova 5y ago
        But the computers tricked the humans into thinking "you can just do it all online". My favorite example of this being restaurants that, when you ask for a menu, give you a QR code (with no explanation of course).
      - 52-6F-62 5y ago
        That’s not really a straight comparison here. Computers are not feeling machines, they’re calculators. Humans are greatly varied, contradictory creatures with a seemingly bottomless internal mode. You will get everything under the sun from out of humans. You will get discrete numerical calculations of out a computer.
diek00 5y ago
Last year my bank, Scotiabank, increased its profits be from $6 billion the previous year, to $9 billion. And while they can be helpful, try calling them on the phone. A painful process to deter you from calling them. I had to call them yesterday. When I finally got to talk to a human, she took my number for a call back, I am still waiting . I have no idea how the elderly deal with this blatant corporate greed.
- motohagiography 5y ago
  Just last week a friend who worked for a bank like that said, "If you don't like it, just buy the stock." His rationale was if they can get away with crap service and high service charges, along with being defacto permanent government oligopolies, any savings of yours that you can convert into bank stock will pay out multiples on what you pay in fees and irritation. It just encourages them, but that's Canada, market economics don't apply here.
- dghughes 5y ago
  Tangerine online bank too. I switched from a standard debit card which I had previously used with Google Pay app. to a new card they offered. The activation steps didn't work. It's been 2 years trying to get someone on the phone, I don't want to wait the 2 hours stated on the voice message. Their chat chat is useless.
- mgbmtl 5y ago
  In Canada, credit unions aren't perfect, but usually worth paying a bit more for better service. In Quebec, Desjardins (coop, on paper) has done lots of cuts and tries to compete with banks (many branches closed/merged), but when there are issues, I can easily get someone on the phone and they resolve it quickly and professionally.
grover35 5y ago
Hopefully this is the moment we start realizing that capitalism is not serving the public the way we need it to. How can we expect the old to be cared for without a profit motive? How long will we ignore expert opinion that communism is the most ethical option in nearly every way? How many more cases like this man's will we need to see?
- pif 5y ago
  > communism is the most ethical option in nearly every way Citation needed.
  - jfk13 5y ago
    For communism to actually work well, I think you first have to fix human nature. And if you could fix human nature, maybe capitalism would work out better too.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  [dead]
s3ker 5y ago
I hate that paywall for reading the article.
AshamedCaptain 5y ago
I find myself sometimes asking the same questions when I have to tell banks "I don't have an Android or Apple phone and I am not looking forward to needing one".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
RandallBrown 5y ago
The solution here isn't to keep bank branches open longer, it's to design more accessible ATMs.
dghughes 5y ago
I can see issues even now as a long-time computer user that older people or even younger than me (52) maybe have problems figuring out. Trends like popup menus that suddenly obscures what you were just looking at, "helpful" auto suggest that you may click by mistake, font size, fine motor control, mild dementia, just nervous around a complex expensive device. Computers or at least services should be intuitive you a noob or an expert should not need to decipher what to do next.
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
My French bank was welcoming me for A YEAR AND A HALF with a blocking page (I neeed to click ok I understand twice to go further) when I was loggong in, saying in essence "because of the new law blah blah, you need to provide us the following document: ". And that is all there was. No mention of the nature of the document. I called them every 15 days and the help line guy or gal was telling me "impossible, you cannot have this page". Despite having sent them a screenshot. Then one day it was gone. Came back a year later, and gone again after two months. I really like the bank so I did not switch but I was close to do so.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
One thing that I do have to say about Spain: Pre-Corona there was literally a bank branch at every street corner. It was a bit too much. I get that old people have mobility issues, but where I live there were 3 branches within 500m of my house. And that was just for my bank, I had at least one branch from the other main ones within the same distance as well. I have never seen this density in other EU countries (I've lived in several and visited most) even before digitisation, except probably Romania. Now what they've done is shuttered a lot of actual branches but left the ATMs. The density of bank branches now is comparable to the density of post offices (in my "barrio" there is only one post office and now only one branch of my brank). It's not like they have to walk 20km now especially in the city. However I do really think old people should be able to keep doing transactions as they were. They should not be forced to go online.

148 points by ilamont 5y ago

I prefer be able to pay bills, new way and old way. Because WSHTF principle. I'm preparing that someday maybe i would not be able to use smartphone or internet or bank or electricity or any other single point of failure the system depends on.

boredumb 5y ago
To be fair, WSHTF I have a feeling that paying e-bills isn't going to be the prevailing issue.

dusted 5y ago

paywalled

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
half_way 5y ago
Turning off JS lets you read NYTimes articles. I use an extension (in Firefox) called Disable Javascript that makes it easy to do per site.
- phonon 5y ago
  You can also do it directly from uBlock Origin, it's the closed tag icon. https://www.ghacks.net/2018/09/25/ublock-origin-can-block-javascript-by-default-now/ https://www.ghacks.net/2018/09/25/ublock-origin-can-block-ja...
ur-whale 5y ago
https://archive.md/KvHID https://archive.md/KvHID

Macha 5y ago

I've had to assist an elderly neighbour after her phone company cut off her phone service. Why? The way she had paid for it for the preceding 40 years was she would get the paper bill in mail, and then go down to the post office and organise payment using the details in that paper bill. They switched her over to paperless billing with an email that they've done so but you can opt out. She either did not understand the implications of this or missed the email, and is of the age where she would not remember when exactly she had last paid which bill. So without a paper bill to remind her, and her payment method being via the post office rather than the utility provider having billing details on record, she ended up not paying 3 months of bills and being cut off. It's not like they've offered this option to new customers for at least 15 years. So stuff like this it feels like they should just eat the cost of 12 letters per year until the remaining people availing of it age out.

jacquesm 5y ago
I think paper invoices should continue to be the way that this is handled unless otherwise requested, if only because you are - where I live - supposed to be able to prove this sort of thing for many years to the tax man. All these electronic records can disappear into thin air without you even realizing it has happened and good luck on your tax audit 7 years into the future.
- rosndo 5y ago
  Why would you ever need to prove this kind of transactions to the tax man as an individual? As a business it’s your duty to take care of your recordkeeping, print out the invoices if you so prefer.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    The first mortgage bill of the year typically includes tax statements for the prior year. Etc.
    - rosndo 5y ago

brezelgoring 5y ago

https://archive.md/KvHID https://archive.md/KvHID

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ilamont 5y ago

The OECD published the results of a massive survey of member countries some years ago, titled "Skills Matter" (https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_9789264258051-en https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_978926...). The researchers defined 4 levels of technology proficiency, based on the types of tasks users can complete successfully. There was a very good summary published here (https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/) and excerpted below. For each level, here’s the percentage of the population (averaged across the OECD countries) who performed at that level, as well as the report’s definition of the ability of people within that level: "Below Level 1” = 14% of Adult Population Being too polite to use a term like “level zero,” the OECD researchers refer to the lowest skill level as “below level 1.” This is what people below level 1 can do: “Tasks are based on well-defined problems involving the use of only one function within a generic interface to meet one explicit criterion without any categorical or inferential reasoning, or transforming of information. Few steps are required and no sub-goal has to be generated.” An example of task at this level is “Delete this email message” in an email app. Level 1 = 29% of Adult Population This is what level-1 people can do: “Tasks typically require the use of widely available and familiar technology applications, such as email software or a web browser. There is little or no navigation required to access the information or commands required to solve the problem. The tasks involve few steps and a minimal number of operators. The reply-to-all task described above requires level-1 skills. Another example of level-1 task is “Find all emails from John Smith.” Level 2 = 26% of Adult Population This is what level-2 people can do: “At this level, tasks typically require the use of both generic and more specific technology applications. For instance, the respondent may have to make use of a novel online form. Some navigation across pages and applications is required to solve the problem. The use of tools (e.g. a sort function) can facilitate the resolution of the problem. The task may involve multiple steps and operators. An example of level-2 task is “You want to find a sustainability-related document that was sent to you by John Smith in October last year.” Level 3 = 5% of Adult Population This is what this most-skilled group of people can do: “At this level, tasks typically require the use of both generic and more specific technology applications. Some navigation across pages and applications is required to solve the problem. The use of tools (e.g. a sort function) is required to make progress towards the solution. The task may involve multiple steps and operators. Integration and inferential reasoning may be needed to a large extent. The meeting room task described above requires level-3 skills. Another example of level-3 task is “You want to know what percentage of the emails sent by John Smith last month were about sustainability.” Can’t Use Computers = 26% of Adult Population The numbers for the 4 skill levels don’t sum to 100% because a large proportion of the respondents never attempted the tasks, being unable to use computers. In total, across the OECD countries, 26% of adults were unable to use a computer. That one quarter of the population can’t use a computer at all is the most serious element of the digital divide. To a great extent, this problem is caused by computers still being much too complicated for many people. Let that phrase sink in: across the OECD countries, 26% of adults were unable to use a computer. In some countries like Japan, the number is even higher (about 1/3 of Japan's population can't use computers, which may reflect the aging population, poor interface design, or some other factor.)

naoqj 5y ago

steve_g 5y ago
The article says that his Parkinson's tremor makes using the ATM difficult. As a guy with tremor, I can tell you that it sucks. There are some things I can't physically do now, even though my brain works fine.
- naoqj 5y ago
  I think it makes sense to ask for accomodations if you have a disability, but this movement is nothing like that. I've seen it with my own eyes.
namelessoracle 5y ago
Dude has Parkinson's. Lots of older people also have serious vision problems. (and as much we stare at screens all day we should respect the hell out of this issue) Also lots of old people have arthritis. Tell me next how people asking for accessibility options are a pain in your ass.
- mike50 5y ago
  ATMs have voice prompts. Look for the headphone plug.
deberon 5y ago
I hope when you become an elder the next generation shows you the respect you are currently lacking.
- naoqj 5y ago
  I hope that when I become an elder I will keep up with the progress of the world so I don't become a burden to others.
  - 5y ago

inetknght 5y ago

It's not just old people with this problem. Many younger people who've been victims of online fraud, and now have trouble with online accounts, fall into the same category.

throwaway29303 5y ago
Interesting. Could you please give us more details about this?
- inetknght 5y ago
  Sure. 1. lose access to your email. this can happen many ways -- whether your email account was compromised or your domain was lost or you forgot your password. 2. ??? welp good luck getting those oh-so-important bills and notices. and good luck resetting your access Here's another scenario: 1. lose access to your email ten years ago and have to go through all that. now you're averse to any service even ten years later wanting to exclusively do business online Speaking from experience. Here's a third scenario: 1. don't "lose" access to your email. instead, get inundated with spam and phishing attempts. to combat that, create new emails. good luck changing your email address! I still have banks that send notices to email addresses that were completely removed from the account and present that same email address as a second factor for authorization; I'm very not-impressed with Chase bank. I fear the day that email address ever gets deleted specifically because so many businesses either don't allow changing the email or still use the email after it's been removed from the account
- pvaldes 5y ago
  There are a lot of recent changes that are really stupid. To have an opened bussiness in Spain now, you need to provide the government an email. The excuse is that they want to save paper and stop using the standard post. So you need to pay for internet access. There are still 5 millions of people in Spain that live in rural areas where they don't have a good access to internet or don't have access at all. Though luck if you are one of they. They will put all important legal messages related with your activity in that mail. So if you lose the access to that email (or is hacked for a month and some mails are removed silently) now you have a problem. Missing the latest legal change or government requirement means that now you are doing things illegally or that you are refusing to provide them data about your company that they asked for. There is a liability and legal consequences attached. But the mail just will tell you (genius move) that the government wants to tell you "something", but not what. To retrieve this message you need to provide a phone number so they will send you a code by watsup necessary to access the info. So now you need to use a Facebook app, want it or not, because the government "cares for your privacy". The government will not receive you now without a cite, arranged by phone or web, so you can't just walk into the building and show your ID card to ask what they want. If you think that you can just visit the gov web page, good luck with that. Your important messages are somewhere in that black hole, as unreachable as in the bottom of the ocean. So you need a phone, but neither a normal desktop phone nor an old reliable Nokia will be accepted. You need to provide a mobile of the spy-phone type. Because for example, to receive your covid passport you need to scan a barcode now. So you must have a camera in your phone and an OS able to install an run an external app to scan 3d barcodes. Do you want to know why asking for covid passport in bars was a failure? This. And if you have an crash car and the police emits a traffic report, they will give you a ticket full of 3D Codes linking to the report, the extra info, the laws that apply, and your rights. No spy-phone?, you can't access to your info. They could just provide a link, a short chain of characters that is the universal way to navigate internet, but not. That would be too easy. I had been contacted by phone by somebody in the government encouraging me to use their services more. I agreed to provide a mail to receive more info and some weeks later received a mail, asking me to provide a phone in order to access the info (so they can call me asking for a mail maybe?). So either you agree to have a phone that tracks all your life now, or you are treated as a sub-citizen with less rights.

wink 5y ago

It's kinda funny (in the sad way) that banks here are closing their branches and at the same time their online banking sucks (not even proper 2FA) and without the pandemic I still wouldn't be able to pay without cash in most bakeries. This is Germany.

harperlee 5y ago

Some important context that the article overlook: Spain was until recently the country with most bank branches per citizen, and after the financial crisis the number of banks has decreased from about 60 to about 6 due to M&A activity. Merges and acquisitions continue to be planned. In the last 5 years, a third of all branches has been closed.

Terretta 5y ago

Anyone happen to know the good reason retirees at 80 years old need hours extended outside the daytime window? Of all segments, superficially seems they'd be the most able to visit a branch during business day. But a second thought says that's probably failing to think in their shoes. For example, if they are less able to get around than younger segments, the issue could be being taken to the bank by a working family member who can only take them before or after the driver's working hours. (But driving is a US thing, while EU is chock full of busses, so maybe it's not driver, maybe it's availability of someone just 'accompanying' them.) Other reasons? As our population ages, and depending on the pool of problems causing the need for extended hours, I'm wondering if there's some service that could be offered to resolve whatever the collection of reasons are across not just banking but anything with limited hours that retirees need.

masswerk 5y ago
The real problem here is that there are no brick and mortar branche offices with regular business hours any more, only special appointments to be booked using an app.
- ilamont 5y ago
  Yes. My mother was unable to get a cashier's check at the local MegaBank branch on short notice because of this.

bell-cot 5y ago

Spain is not America, for the ADA ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act_of_1990 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Ac... ) to apply. Still, I wonder what legal the situation is in the U.S., for that sort of "just tell 'em that they have to use our..." corporate cost-cutting, at less-able customer expense.

joshstrange 5y ago

> it hurts to see that the digital world has dehumanized us to the point that loyalty has lost all of its worth sigh, this has almost nothing to do with the "digital" world as much as it does with the fact that corporations never cared. If they could have saved a single cent by moving to "tellers"/ATMS that were mechanical in nature, 51 years ago when he first opened his account, they would have. The corporations were never "loyal".

akhmatova 5y ago
Sigh, it does have to do with the digital world actually (in that everyone now seems to think that everyone is on their platform. Further, it has been been observed that digital systems promote cognitive fatigue and empathy depletion across the board). There's no need to be so dismissive. Sigh.
- 52-6F-62 5y ago
  Indeed. There are many things computers are amazing at doing (that's why I find them fascinating and enjoy working on them from time to time)—but human empathy isn't one of them.
  - joshstrange 5y ago
    Computers didn't choose to close down a branch or limit its hours, humans did.
    - akhmatova 5y ago
      But the computers tricked the humans into thinking "you can just do it all online". My favorite example of this being restaurants that, when you ask for a menu, give you a QR code (with no explanation of course).
    - 52-6F-62 5y ago
      That’s not really a straight comparison here. Computers are not feeling machines, they’re calculators. Humans are greatly varied, contradictory creatures with a seemingly bottomless internal mode. You will get everything under the sun from out of humans. You will get discrete numerical calculations of out a computer.

diek00 5y ago

Last year my bank, Scotiabank, increased its profits be from $6 billion the previous year, to $9 billion. And while they can be helpful, try calling them on the phone. A painful process to deter you from calling them. I had to call them yesterday. When I finally got to talk to a human, she took my number for a call back, I am still waiting . I have no idea how the elderly deal with this blatant corporate greed.

motohagiography 5y ago
Just last week a friend who worked for a bank like that said, "If you don't like it, just buy the stock." His rationale was if they can get away with crap service and high service charges, along with being defacto permanent government oligopolies, any savings of yours that you can convert into bank stock will pay out multiples on what you pay in fees and irritation. It just encourages them, but that's Canada, market economics don't apply here.
dghughes 5y ago
Tangerine online bank too. I switched from a standard debit card which I had previously used with Google Pay app. to a new card they offered. The activation steps didn't work. It's been 2 years trying to get someone on the phone, I don't want to wait the 2 hours stated on the voice message. Their chat chat is useless.
mgbmtl 5y ago
In Canada, credit unions aren't perfect, but usually worth paying a bit more for better service. In Quebec, Desjardins (coop, on paper) has done lots of cuts and tries to compete with banks (many branches closed/merged), but when there are issues, I can easily get someone on the phone and they resolve it quickly and professionally.

grover35 5y ago

Hopefully this is the moment we start realizing that capitalism is not serving the public the way we need it to. How can we expect the old to be cared for without a profit motive? How long will we ignore expert opinion that communism is the most ethical option in nearly every way? How many more cases like this man's will we need to see?

pif 5y ago
> communism is the most ethical option in nearly every way Citation needed.
- jfk13 5y ago
  For communism to actually work well, I think you first have to fix human nature. And if you could fix human nature, maybe capitalism would work out better too.
bobthechef 5y ago
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s3ker 5y ago

I hate that paywall for reading the article.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago

I find myself sometimes asking the same questions when I have to tell banks "I don't have an Android or Apple phone and I am not looking forward to needing one".

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RandallBrown 5y ago

The solution here isn't to keep bank branches open longer, it's to design more accessible ATMs.

dghughes 5y ago

I can see issues even now as a long-time computer user that older people or even younger than me (52) maybe have problems figuring out. Trends like popup menus that suddenly obscures what you were just looking at, "helpful" auto suggest that you may click by mistake, font size, fine motor control, mild dementia, just nervous around a complex expensive device. Computers or at least services should be intuitive you a noob or an expert should not need to decipher what to do next.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

My French bank was welcoming me for A YEAR AND A HALF with a blocking page (I neeed to click ok I understand twice to go further) when I was loggong in, saying in essence "because of the new law blah blah, you need to provide us the following document: ". And that is all there was. No mention of the nature of the document. I called them every 15 days and the help line guy or gal was telling me "impossible, you cannot have this page". Despite having sent them a screenshot. Then one day it was gone. Came back a year later, and gone again after two months. I really like the bank so I did not switch but I was close to do so.

GekkePrutser 5y ago

One thing that I do have to say about Spain: Pre-Corona there was literally a bank branch at every street corner. It was a bit too much. I get that old people have mobility issues, but where I live there were 3 branches within 500m of my house. And that was just for my bank, I had at least one branch from the other main ones within the same distance as well. I have never seen this density in other EU countries (I've lived in several and visited most) even before digitisation, except probably Romania. Now what they've done is shuttered a lot of actual branches but left the ATMs. The density of bank branches now is comparable to the density of post offices (in my "barrio" there is only one post office and now only one branch of my brank). It's not like they have to walk 20km now especially in the city. However I do really think old people should be able to keep doing transactions as they were. They should not be forced to go online.