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> You also shouldn't go out and buy a Tesla. Living beyond your means is a key red flag that triggers financial and fraud investigations [..] Okay, so why woul

> You also shouldn't go out and buy a Tesla. Living beyond your means is a key red flag that triggers financial and fraud investigations [..] Okay, so why would I go through all this trouble then? I could think of other hobbies to escape a "cookie-cutter" life.

vmception 5y ago
You have to launder it like the article mentioned, it just glossed over that completely as its about the OPSEC. Its still better if you already have a lucrative clean-money life, which means it is easier to quickly intermingle uncleaned money into it.
- toss1 5y ago
  . . . and of course, if you already have a lucrative clean-money life, there's not much point to risking it all to get involved in dirty money activities It seems the best way to do it would be to be sponsored by the FBI or whatever in your country - use your expertise to setup a honeypot system with their prior knowledge and you'll feed them data when it is setup... they get info feed to collar criminals, no cost to their budget, are they going to care if you make your cut along the way? [note the "It seems" — I have zero experience with what the FBI may or may not require for such an operation]
  - vmception 5y ago
    Right. Part of the goal of reducing corruption is having alternative behaviors that are more attractive But in any case there are lots of useful laundering techniques that can pass scrutiny Just wait for the next darknet pastebin to have that debate
  - philwelch 5y ago
    There’s nothing stopping the feds from double crossing you though. You could be the leader of a sovereign country and they will literally invade your country just to arrest you. That’s how they did Noriega.
    - hulitu 5y ago
      Some countries are sovereign only in theory.
withinboredom 5y ago
Why do you think NFT's have exploded? Your "bad guys" can buy a pretty picture from you, meanwhile, you ship them a bunch of a drugs. You can't help that you're a famous and wealthy artist.
- xunn0026 5y ago
  Maybe I'm too naive, but what's NFT have to do with it? Couldn't they send any crypto instead? What does it accomplish? I never heard of this usecase, which makes me believe it's too convoluted to be true.
  - pjerem 5y ago
    It's an alibi. Yes you received a lot of money. But because someone loved your MS Paint masterpiece.
    - xunn0026 5y ago
      Sigh. I understand now... I wonder if this could be tracked somehow. NFTs used as 'receipts' probably never get sold again.
  - adenozine 5y ago
    NFT is just digital art fraud. Fine Art is often used to transport millions of dollars across borders. NFTs are `probably` used in a similar way. We make a deal via some marketplace. Doesn't matter. We agree on a price and an amount, and some other specifics. In a different marketplace, you offer up a jpg of a monkey. I offer thousands of dollars to own it. In the real world, you ship me a big box full of dope, and email me a hyperlink to a jpg. I send you bitcoin, and all of a sudden, we're both legitimate actors in this little NFT art biz.
  - bccdee 5y ago
    If someone sends you $1M in Bitcoin out of the blue, that's very suspicious. You didn't earn that and the tax man knows it. If you make a goofy picture of a frog and someone "buys" it from you for $1M in Bitcoin, that's just the wacky world of NFTs, and the government will have a hard time proving that that wasn't a legitimate purchase. It's not convoluted at all; it's actually pretty elegant when you get down to it. It's almost enough to make the entire NFT phenomenon make sense.
icedchai 5y ago
Really, it's about not drawing attention to yourself. You can probably buy a Tesla if you also have a regular job, just don't buy it in cash. That cash transaction may be reported. Act like a "normal person" that has loans.
- Melatonic 5y ago
  I know I should never do this but if I ever get semi rich I legitimately do want to walk into a nice car dealership with a suitcase full of real cash handcuffed to my arm :-D
  - kofejnik 5y ago
    you can only stuff about a mil into a briefcase, rich people won't handcuff themselves to a measly mil
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    Meh... they'll secretly get upset with you. Plus it is much smarter to pay for it with a credit card and then pay the card off. That way you can get those sweet sweet rewards points...
    - ev1 5y ago
      from what i've seen they get unsecretly upset with you and furious that they are not getting their kickbacks for making you take out unnecessary loans
  - LandR 5y ago
    At least in the UK, they might not accept it. I believe there is a limit to what you can spend in cash at places like car dealere, art houses, jewellers etc. I believe it's about £9000.
Ralfp 5y ago
Crime doesn’t pay. If you look up earnings of US mafia members you’ll find that your average organisation has few people on top making ton of money they are just sitting on because its dirty money they can’t easily launder or spend, with under-bosses making middle-class money and everybody else scrapping by, with their possesions being in illiquid assets that are hard to turn into cash in time of need like stolen goods (electronics, clothes, cars etc. ect,) or property shares.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  freakanomics had a great chapter on this in the first (I think) book.
  - Ralfp 5y ago
    AFAIR it was there I saw that 50% of mafia members ann. earlings are less than $19500, with extra being assets I’ve mentioned above.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > freakanomics had a great chapter on this in the first (I think) book. Wasn't that about street gang members and not the mafia? I vaguely recall it was something about working at McDonald's pays better than being a street-level drug dealer.
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      I guess my point is that crime is like being an actor. Only the 0.001% who hit it big do better than they would have as an engineer, doctor, lawyer, or MBA.
- Melatonic 5y ago
  I think that is probably what most people expect - and what most Mafia bosses would want. If your underlings dont make a ton of cash on their own and are reliant on you for nice stolen goods, illegal apartments where they can (relatively comfortably) live, etc etc then they will have more trouble leaving the mafia life than if you just paid them a decent wage.

vmception 5y ago

You have to launder it like the article mentioned, it just glossed over that completely as its about the OPSEC. Its still better if you already have a lucrative clean-money life, which means it is easier to quickly intermingle uncleaned money into it.

toss1 5y ago
. . . and of course, if you already have a lucrative clean-money life, there's not much point to risking it all to get involved in dirty money activities It seems the best way to do it would be to be sponsored by the FBI or whatever in your country - use your expertise to setup a honeypot system with their prior knowledge and you'll feed them data when it is setup... they get info feed to collar criminals, no cost to their budget, are they going to care if you make your cut along the way? [note the "It seems" — I have zero experience with what the FBI may or may not require for such an operation]
- vmception 5y ago
  Right. Part of the goal of reducing corruption is having alternative behaviors that are more attractive But in any case there are lots of useful laundering techniques that can pass scrutiny Just wait for the next darknet pastebin to have that debate
- philwelch 5y ago
  There’s nothing stopping the feds from double crossing you though. You could be the leader of a sovereign country and they will literally invade your country just to arrest you. That’s how they did Noriega.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    Some countries are sovereign only in theory.

withinboredom 5y ago

Why do you think NFT's have exploded? Your "bad guys" can buy a pretty picture from you, meanwhile, you ship them a bunch of a drugs. You can't help that you're a famous and wealthy artist.

xunn0026 5y ago
Maybe I'm too naive, but what's NFT have to do with it? Couldn't they send any crypto instead? What does it accomplish? I never heard of this usecase, which makes me believe it's too convoluted to be true.
- pjerem 5y ago
  It's an alibi. Yes you received a lot of money. But because someone loved your MS Paint masterpiece.
  - xunn0026 5y ago
    Sigh. I understand now... I wonder if this could be tracked somehow. NFTs used as 'receipts' probably never get sold again.
- adenozine 5y ago
  NFT is just digital art fraud. Fine Art is often used to transport millions of dollars across borders. NFTs are `probably` used in a similar way. We make a deal via some marketplace. Doesn't matter. We agree on a price and an amount, and some other specifics. In a different marketplace, you offer up a jpg of a monkey. I offer thousands of dollars to own it. In the real world, you ship me a big box full of dope, and email me a hyperlink to a jpg. I send you bitcoin, and all of a sudden, we're both legitimate actors in this little NFT art biz.
- bccdee 5y ago
  If someone sends you $1M in Bitcoin out of the blue, that's very suspicious. You didn't earn that and the tax man knows it. If you make a goofy picture of a frog and someone "buys" it from you for $1M in Bitcoin, that's just the wacky world of NFTs, and the government will have a hard time proving that that wasn't a legitimate purchase. It's not convoluted at all; it's actually pretty elegant when you get down to it. It's almost enough to make the entire NFT phenomenon make sense.

icedchai 5y ago

Really, it's about not drawing attention to yourself. You can probably buy a Tesla if you also have a regular job, just don't buy it in cash. That cash transaction may be reported. Act like a "normal person" that has loans.

Melatonic 5y ago
I know I should never do this but if I ever get semi rich I legitimately do want to walk into a nice car dealership with a suitcase full of real cash handcuffed to my arm :-D
- kofejnik 5y ago
  you can only stuff about a mil into a briefcase, rich people won't handcuff themselves to a measly mil
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  Meh... they'll secretly get upset with you. Plus it is much smarter to pay for it with a credit card and then pay the card off. That way you can get those sweet sweet rewards points...
  - ev1 5y ago
    from what i've seen they get unsecretly upset with you and furious that they are not getting their kickbacks for making you take out unnecessary loans
- LandR 5y ago
  At least in the UK, they might not accept it. I believe there is a limit to what you can spend in cash at places like car dealere, art houses, jewellers etc. I believe it's about £9000.

Ralfp 5y ago

Crime doesn’t pay. If you look up earnings of US mafia members you’ll find that your average organisation has few people on top making ton of money they are just sitting on because its dirty money they can’t easily launder or spend, with under-bosses making middle-class money and everybody else scrapping by, with their possesions being in illiquid assets that are hard to turn into cash in time of need like stolen goods (electronics, clothes, cars etc. ect,) or property shares.

stjohnswarts 5y ago
freakanomics had a great chapter on this in the first (I think) book.
- Ralfp 5y ago
  AFAIR it was there I saw that 50% of mafia members ann. earlings are less than $19500, with extra being assets I’ve mentioned above.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > freakanomics had a great chapter on this in the first (I think) book. Wasn't that about street gang members and not the mafia? I vaguely recall it was something about working at McDonald's pays better than being a street-level drug dealer.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    I guess my point is that crime is like being an actor. Only the 0.001% who hit it big do better than they would have as an engineer, doctor, lawyer, or MBA.
Melatonic 5y ago
I think that is probably what most people expect - and what most Mafia bosses would want. If your underlings dont make a ton of cash on their own and are reliant on you for nice stolen goods, illegal apartments where they can (relatively comfortably) live, etc etc then they will have more trouble leaving the mafia life than if you just paid them a decent wage.