4 ms·

"For some reason" there are temptations to addiction all around us, and alcohol is only one. We can't treat being human as merely a medical condition. Human c

by ponow 5y ago

"For some reason" there are temptations to addiction all around us, and alcohol is only one. We can't treat being human as merely a medical condition. Human cultures have adapted using shame as a tool.

_jal 5y ago
> Human cultures have adapted using shame as a tool. A rather poorly targeted and counterproductive one. Note that you immediately assumed a puritan view, that addiction is solely an individual moral failing. > there are temptations to addiction all around us
- dionidium 5y ago
  I used to be a heavy drinker. Shame and guilt were absolutely enormous factors in my decision to quit drinking. I'm just n = 1, but it seems crazy to me to suggest that shame doesn't work. It works really, really well on me! If you want me to stop doing something, then getting me to feel ashamed about it is a very effective strategy.
  - steve_adams_86 5y ago
    For many other people it might only lead to reclusion and self loathing, which leads to more drinking, which leads to more shame, and so on.
    - dionidium 5y ago
      I have no trouble believing that, but it feels like across a lot of domains it's currently popular to say things like, "these old ways of human interaction don't work, therefore they are bad in all cases and should be replaced with new ways" when the truth is closer to, "these old ways of human interaction don't work sometimes and we should be open to other modalities, but the old ways remain quite effective in many cases." If I had to choose one word to describe the current era's discourse, it might be "over-correction."
      - steve_adams_86 5y ago
        I agree, people tend to want to throw babies out with the bathwater. There is a trend of rejecting that which worked for previous generations but which also came with costs or compromises we no longer find acceptable. Rather than find ways to correct, like you say, instead we over-correct. I do think shame as a tool is a crude one, and people can and should try do better. The trouble is shame is easy and doing better is hard. Many of us literally don't have the tools to do better. It requires higher choices, understanding interpersonal dynamics well enough to behave in un-intuitive ways, and personal sacrifice in order to coexist and connect with people who are suffering. If the average person had these abilities I don't think we'd need to have this conversation. I don't think shame should be encouraged, but I doubt it makes sense to actively discourage it without an alternative that makes sense to people and is readily practiced. That's a hard problem. With my kids I encourage them to think of what the other person is experiencing, think about why they'd invoke shameful words about someone or something, and generally try to reframe what they're thinking about. That alone can be helpful in thinking more constructively rather than destructively. Usually shaming something occurs out of discomfort, fear, and/or insecurity. Once you begin to recognize that addiction like alcoholism often stems from bad experiences, a lack of connection, a lack of community, etc - you begin to think of the person as someone burdened with more than most humans can handle, and recognize the necessity for support rather than your own desire to reject them or their habits. Again, not a trivial thing, but one I believe is typically going to be more helpful than reaching for shame. Maybe I'm wrong but at least shame indicates that people care. No reaction or concern whatsoever would probably be the worst reaction of all.
The-Bus 5y ago
The medical condition is a predilection to addiction, alcohol or otherwise. Shame doesn't cure cancer or make you recover from a common cold.
- hallway_monitor 5y ago
  You don't have to think of addiction as a moral failing when you treat it as a behavioral problem. There's not necessarily a genetic or chemical cause or cure - in the end, addiction is a behavior.
  - jolux 5y ago
    That’s begging the question, because behaviors can absolutely have chemical causes.
- nradov 5y ago
  Predilection to addiction isn't a recognized medical condition like diabetes or heart failure. There is no diagnosis code for it. Some people seem more prone to addiction and there may be some genetic risk factors but anyone can become an addict.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  I have a very serious family history of addiction. Many many alcoholics on both sides, hard drug abusers and ODs in younger generations too. So I don't drink. Pressure is immemse in college but still not an excuse. Addiction is a medical problem, but it's like obesity: a medical problem that arises from choices. So there is some individual responsibility. And shame may not help addicts but it sure stops people from becoming addicts.
clairity 5y ago
while shame can be useful at the margin for curbing incidental misbehaviors (like peeing on the seat), it's often ineffective and counterproductive at tackling larger psychosocial issues like addiction. you don't shame people out of gambling, they just hide it from you. i know someone who's clearly an alcoholic and they simply isolate themselves for large parts of the day and then hangs out with other heavy drinkers at night. this is incidentally why 'cancel culture' doesn't work either. you have to do the hard work of active engagement[0], and that requires empathy, not (mis)judgement. shame has a small, limited place in our prosocial toolbox, but backfires reliably when mis- or over-used (and it's too often misused to enforce arbitrary conformity). [0]: intentionally avoiding the term "listening", because that tends to be shallowly dismissed, with everyone thinking they listen well simply because their ears work
bduerst 5y ago
Human cultures nave also historically adapted slavery, misogyny, and other "tools". That doesn't mean that shame is an acceptable nor an effective form of addiction treatment.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  Also doesn’t mean it isn’t.
throwawaycities 5y ago
> Human cultures have adapted using shame as a tool. As you said temptation to addiction is all around us, and alcohol is only one…well shame is just another one of those tempting addictions and it happens to be the addiction de jour.
elliekelly 5y ago
Yes but to what end? I don’t think shame is nearly as effective a “tool” as you imagine. What are some examples of things that humans have commonly shamed one another for throughout history? Most of them, with the benefit of hindsight, were nonsense and the shame solved nothing. How many gay people were “cured” by the shame they endured? How many people with depression? Or obesity? Or AIDS? Or epilepsy? Or leprosy? Or PTSD? Or diabetes? Or dyslexia? And that’s to say nothing of the other ridiculous ways shame is wielded: when a man wants to be a stay-at-home dad, when a person doesn’t want to become a parent, when someone emigrates to another country, when someone is in a relationship with a person of another race. All of these people have been “shamed” yet none of these behaviors have abated. What would you think of a manager who uses shame to “motivate” their employees? Or a teacher who uses shame to "motivate" students? You’d probably think they’re awful at their job. We know that putting people down is a terrible an ineffective way to motivate them to move forward. So why do we still think it magically works when it comes to addiction? It doesn’t.

by ponow 5y ago

_jal 5y ago

> Human cultures have adapted using shame as a tool. A rather poorly targeted and counterproductive one. Note that you immediately assumed a puritan view, that addiction is solely an individual moral failing. > there are temptations to addiction all around us

dionidium 5y ago
I used to be a heavy drinker. Shame and guilt were absolutely enormous factors in my decision to quit drinking. I'm just n = 1, but it seems crazy to me to suggest that shame doesn't work. It works really, really well on me! If you want me to stop doing something, then getting me to feel ashamed about it is a very effective strategy.
- steve_adams_86 5y ago
  For many other people it might only lead to reclusion and self loathing, which leads to more drinking, which leads to more shame, and so on.
  - dionidium 5y ago
    I have no trouble believing that, but it feels like across a lot of domains it's currently popular to say things like, "these old ways of human interaction don't work, therefore they are bad in all cases and should be replaced with new ways" when the truth is closer to, "these old ways of human interaction don't work sometimes and we should be open to other modalities, but the old ways remain quite effective in many cases." If I had to choose one word to describe the current era's discourse, it might be "over-correction."
    - steve_adams_86 5y ago
      I agree, people tend to want to throw babies out with the bathwater. There is a trend of rejecting that which worked for previous generations but which also came with costs or compromises we no longer find acceptable. Rather than find ways to correct, like you say, instead we over-correct. I do think shame as a tool is a crude one, and people can and should try do better. The trouble is shame is easy and doing better is hard. Many of us literally don't have the tools to do better. It requires higher choices, understanding interpersonal dynamics well enough to behave in un-intuitive ways, and personal sacrifice in order to coexist and connect with people who are suffering. If the average person had these abilities I don't think we'd need to have this conversation. I don't think shame should be encouraged, but I doubt it makes sense to actively discourage it without an alternative that makes sense to people and is readily practiced. That's a hard problem. With my kids I encourage them to think of what the other person is experiencing, think about why they'd invoke shameful words about someone or something, and generally try to reframe what they're thinking about. That alone can be helpful in thinking more constructively rather than destructively. Usually shaming something occurs out of discomfort, fear, and/or insecurity. Once you begin to recognize that addiction like alcoholism often stems from bad experiences, a lack of connection, a lack of community, etc - you begin to think of the person as someone burdened with more than most humans can handle, and recognize the necessity for support rather than your own desire to reject them or their habits. Again, not a trivial thing, but one I believe is typically going to be more helpful than reaching for shame. Maybe I'm wrong but at least shame indicates that people care. No reaction or concern whatsoever would probably be the worst reaction of all.

The-Bus 5y ago

The medical condition is a predilection to addiction, alcohol or otherwise. Shame doesn't cure cancer or make you recover from a common cold.

hallway_monitor 5y ago
You don't have to think of addiction as a moral failing when you treat it as a behavioral problem. There's not necessarily a genetic or chemical cause or cure - in the end, addiction is a behavior.
- jolux 5y ago
  That’s begging the question, because behaviors can absolutely have chemical causes.
nradov 5y ago
Predilection to addiction isn't a recognized medical condition like diabetes or heart failure. There is no diagnosis code for it. Some people seem more prone to addiction and there may be some genetic risk factors but anyone can become an addict.
collegeburner 5y ago
I have a very serious family history of addiction. Many many alcoholics on both sides, hard drug abusers and ODs in younger generations too. So I don't drink. Pressure is immemse in college but still not an excuse. Addiction is a medical problem, but it's like obesity: a medical problem that arises from choices. So there is some individual responsibility. And shame may not help addicts but it sure stops people from becoming addicts.

clairity 5y ago

while shame can be useful at the margin for curbing incidental misbehaviors (like peeing on the seat), it's often ineffective and counterproductive at tackling larger psychosocial issues like addiction. you don't shame people out of gambling, they just hide it from you. i know someone who's clearly an alcoholic and they simply isolate themselves for large parts of the day and then hangs out with other heavy drinkers at night. this is incidentally why 'cancel culture' doesn't work either. you have to do the hard work of active engagement[0], and that requires empathy, not (mis)judgement. shame has a small, limited place in our prosocial toolbox, but backfires reliably when mis- or over-used (and it's too often misused to enforce arbitrary conformity). [0]: intentionally avoiding the term "listening", because that tends to be shallowly dismissed, with everyone thinking they listen well simply because their ears work

bduerst 5y ago

Human cultures nave also historically adapted slavery, misogyny, and other "tools". That doesn't mean that shame is an acceptable nor an effective form of addiction treatment.

Grustaf 5y ago
Also doesn’t mean it isn’t.

throwawaycities 5y ago

> Human cultures have adapted using shame as a tool. As you said temptation to addiction is all around us, and alcohol is only one…well shame is just another one of those tempting addictions and it happens to be the addiction de jour.

elliekelly 5y ago

Yes but to what end? I don’t think shame is nearly as effective a “tool” as you imagine. What are some examples of things that humans have commonly shamed one another for throughout history? Most of them, with the benefit of hindsight, were nonsense and the shame solved nothing. How many gay people were “cured” by the shame they endured? How many people with depression? Or obesity? Or AIDS? Or epilepsy? Or leprosy? Or PTSD? Or diabetes? Or dyslexia? And that’s to say nothing of the other ridiculous ways shame is wielded: when a man wants to be a stay-at-home dad, when a person doesn’t want to become a parent, when someone emigrates to another country, when someone is in a relationship with a person of another race. All of these people have been “shamed” yet none of these behaviors have abated. What would you think of a manager who uses shame to “motivate” their employees? Or a teacher who uses shame to "motivate" students? You’d probably think they’re awful at their job. We know that putting people down is a terrible an ineffective way to motivate them to move forward. So why do we still think it magically works when it comes to addiction? It doesn’t.