6 ms·

Devs complaining that the JVM is too heavyweight for client applications when electron is dominating the desktop landscape. Satire is dead...

by islon 5y ago

blablabla123 5y ago
That's true on the other hand the state of Java desktop UI frameworks is at best confusing. I guess it's possible to write well performing Java desktop apps and yet I have a Java app that slows down my whole system and usually crashes on macOS
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  I use DBeaver on MacOS and it is pretty good and responsive. Only one intermittent keybinding bug with home/end.
- johntdaly 5y ago
  Is the App an old POS? I see a lot of old Java Apps still around that sort of bitrotted to hell. We bitched so much about Java Apps that so many just got abandoned, even if the apps where sort of cool and/or didn’t have a replacement. Maybe I’m getting old but I’m a bit sad for all the open source apps that where abandoned over the years because the tech stack stopped being cool.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Anecdotal, but Java is the only platform where I could download a random jar from a possibly long dead professor’s abandoned website and have a working GUI of some CS algorithm visualization with a double-click. Hell, websites don’t hold up as well to time with all the missing links/resources.
- thfuran 5y ago
  It's much easier to write an application that crashes in C++ than in Java. I don't think the existence of whatever program you're talking about demonstrates much.
floucky 5y ago
Javascript is going to the desktop with Electron, C# is going to the browser with Razor, what a time to be alive.
- beamatronic 5y ago
  I think what we need is a very thin layer, or perhaps just a binding, between JavaScript, and native UI API calls. Then you could have a JavaScript non-web app with native look and feel
  - inamiyar 5y ago
    I'm not sure if I'm reading this right but either duktape or WebView might do what you want. https://duktape.org/ https://duktape.org/ https://github.com/webview/webview https://github.com/webview/webview
    - beamatronic 5y ago
      I'm thinking of a world with Javascript, but without HTML or a web server.
      - cxr 5y ago
        You're describing the Mozilla platform's old XUL strategy, or the modern Gnome desktop. JS has permeated GTK for the last 10 years. It was a huge part of Gnome 3. For a brief moment, pushing people to start with JS for their next GTK app was an explicit strategy for the Gnome project. There was so much backlash, though, that they backed away from that position a month or two later. Had they had the courage to stand their ground, the rise of Electron might never have happened. A world with a better GTK as the go-to cross-platform UI toolkit would have been a lot better than where we ended up instead.
        kaba0 5y ago
        Or Qt’s QML.
johntdaly 5y ago
I never “got” electron. My work is building webapps and I don’t see why anyone would want to use HTML and JavaScript to develop a significant desktop app with modern UI. I can only assume web technologies and electron got popular because all of the Desktop platforms where trying to jump to tablets and phones and whatever else they considered new and shiny so that while web tech was a terrible stack it was at least stable. P.S.: I sort of hope for Griffon to make a come back. Griffon framework + Groovy + JavaFX looked nice to me.
- toyg 5y ago
  > while web tech was a terrible stack it was at least stable. No no no. Web tech was/is terrible, but it's dirt cheap. You can hire JS hacks by the boatload, and retrofit whatever they build into an electron app relatively easily. Whereas desktop developers are few and expensive, and they tend to optimise for this or that platform or toolkit. Electron didn't win on quality or features - it won on the back of commercial realities of the development world.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    I don't think 'desktop' devs are any more expensive or cheaper. There's definitely way less of them and majority of people who know stuff like Win32 APIs are either very specialized or working on games.
    - numpad0 5y ago
      Can’t set up a sweatshop as a school and have students pay to work on Win32 apps.
      - KptMarchewa 5y ago
        That's what a lot of companies did 10-15 years ago in Poland. Sometimes it was Delphi. Of course, the applications were shitty, but also a lot of web is shitty.
    - toyg 5y ago

Devs complaining that the JVM is too heavyweight for client applications when electron is dominating the desktop landscape. Satire is dead...

by islon 5y ago

Devs complaining that the JVM is too heavyweight for client applications when electron is dominating the desktop landscape. Satire is dead...

blablabla123 5y ago

That's true on the other hand the state of Java desktop UI frameworks is at best confusing. I guess it's possible to write well performing Java desktop apps and yet I have a Java app that slows down my whole system and usually crashes on macOS

mixmastamyk 5y ago
I use DBeaver on MacOS and it is pretty good and responsive. Only one intermittent keybinding bug with home/end.
johntdaly 5y ago
Is the App an old POS? I see a lot of old Java Apps still around that sort of bitrotted to hell. We bitched so much about Java Apps that so many just got abandoned, even if the apps where sort of cool and/or didn’t have a replacement. Maybe I’m getting old but I’m a bit sad for all the open source apps that where abandoned over the years because the tech stack stopped being cool.
- kaba0 5y ago
  Anecdotal, but Java is the only platform where I could download a random jar from a possibly long dead professor’s abandoned website and have a working GUI of some CS algorithm visualization with a double-click. Hell, websites don’t hold up as well to time with all the missing links/resources.
thfuran 5y ago
It's much easier to write an application that crashes in C++ than in Java. I don't think the existence of whatever program you're talking about demonstrates much.

floucky 5y ago

Javascript is going to the desktop with Electron, C# is going to the browser with Razor, what a time to be alive.

beamatronic 5y ago
I think what we need is a very thin layer, or perhaps just a binding, between JavaScript, and native UI API calls. Then you could have a JavaScript non-web app with native look and feel
- inamiyar 5y ago
  I'm not sure if I'm reading this right but either duktape or WebView might do what you want. https://duktape.org/ https://duktape.org/ https://github.com/webview/webview https://github.com/webview/webview
  - beamatronic 5y ago
    I'm thinking of a world with Javascript, but without HTML or a web server.
    - cxr 5y ago
      You're describing the Mozilla platform's old XUL strategy, or the modern Gnome desktop. JS has permeated GTK for the last 10 years. It was a huge part of Gnome 3. For a brief moment, pushing people to start with JS for their next GTK app was an explicit strategy for the Gnome project. There was so much backlash, though, that they backed away from that position a month or two later. Had they had the courage to stand their ground, the rise of Electron might never have happened. A world with a better GTK as the go-to cross-platform UI toolkit would have been a lot better than where we ended up instead.
      - kaba0 5y ago
        Or Qt’s QML.

johntdaly 5y ago

I never “got” electron. My work is building webapps and I don’t see why anyone would want to use HTML and JavaScript to develop a significant desktop app with modern UI. I can only assume web technologies and electron got popular because all of the Desktop platforms where trying to jump to tablets and phones and whatever else they considered new and shiny so that while web tech was a terrible stack it was at least stable. P.S.: I sort of hope for Griffon to make a come back. Griffon framework + Groovy + JavaFX looked nice to me.

toyg 5y ago
> while web tech was a terrible stack it was at least stable. No no no. Web tech was/is terrible, but it's dirt cheap. You can hire JS hacks by the boatload, and retrofit whatever they build into an electron app relatively easily. Whereas desktop developers are few and expensive, and they tend to optimise for this or that platform or toolkit. Electron didn't win on quality or features - it won on the back of commercial realities of the development world.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  I don't think 'desktop' devs are any more expensive or cheaper. There's definitely way less of them and majority of people who know stuff like Win32 APIs are either very specialized or working on games.
  - numpad0 5y ago
    Can’t set up a sweatshop as a school and have students pay to work on Win32 apps.
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      That's what a lot of companies did 10-15 years ago in Poland. Sometimes it was Delphi. Of course, the applications were shitty, but also a lot of web is shitty.
  - toyg 5y ago