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Laypeople don't know that systemd exists. They will install a webserver or something and the package manager will automatically install and enable its unit file

by ndiddy 5y ago

Laypeople don't know that systemd exists. They will install a webserver or something and the package manager will automatically install and enable its unit file.

hotpotamus 5y ago
You know, nothing is really ever that simple and this comment makes me realize that. You actually hit on a philosophical difference in package managers lol. Ubuntu (not sure about Debian) will install, enable, and start a package, But Red Hat only installs it, because they expect you to configure the service first.
- ncphil 5y ago
  Which 90% of the time makes sense because if you want anything more than the barebones default config (which you usually do), that's best done before everything gets spun up. But I've worked with Ubuntu (and Debian) long enough that I now take for granted that some services are going to have to be downed for reconfig almost immediately after installation. The "auto start after install" practice rarely makes much difference in the final result. After over 25 years as a sysadmin I do wonder how non-experts navigate some of this stuff, what with the often incomplete doc and horribly uninformed (or just plain reckless) forum posts they have to work with. The best place to start is still æLeen Frisch's Essential System Administration (whose 1st ed is where I learned the sysadmin craft), but there really isn't much beyond it (unless you go the BSD route and so have the FreeBSD Handbook to lean on).
- ddaalluu2 5y ago
  That is actually not true for the most part. RHEL-based distros have a vanilla config file, where Ubuntu yes does make some extra efforts to configure the packages in a sensible manner.
Aeolun 5y ago
Hence I have never cared about the difference. As long as the package installs and the service is enabled.
yawnxyz 5y ago
I thought I was a pretty good "tech person" until I read this thread... and now I'm more layperson than what this thread considers a "layperson" bc none of this makes sense to meh aha
- number6 5y ago
  I drive in the final nail and tell you that the page in the Arch wiki[0] is a wonderful starter on systemd. Ah.. I was there when it was all SystemV vs Upstart vs Systemd... the golden days... [0]:https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd
  - jethro_tell 5y ago
    I still have living systems that I put through the manual transition of the init systems and the /usr/ merge.
    - number6 5y ago
      Ah! the /usr/ merge, I remember it being called the great symlink apocalypse.
- input_sh 5y ago
  systemd → does a lot of things on modern Linux systems, amongst which is dealing with services that should autostart (think: both low-level stuff like Bluetooth or user-level stuff like a Dropbox client or a VPN or whatever). Unit files → fairly simple text files that are used to define such stuff for systemd (usually in /etc/systemd/system and /usr/lib/systemd/system). Package manager → essentially the same as an app store on a phone. It's how you install and update packages (packages could be a fully fledged graphical app or just a terminal command). Webserver → what allows you to "run websites" on your own machine. For the simplest example, if you run `python -m http.server` in a terminal on a Unix-like system, congrats, you can now browse your files in a browser (127.0.0.1:8000). If you know your local IP, you can also open it from a phone and download stuff from your desktop, zero apps or cables or FTPs necessary. So, to decipher that comment above: you usually don't have to worry about how things run automatically because that's usually pre-configured when you install them. In most simple self-hosting scenarios you just "install a website" on your spare laptop or whatever and you're good to go. That website usually serves traffic via a webserver on some port, and you access it via local network IP and a port (example: 192.168.1.100:8000). Now if you go deeper and want to run multiple things simultaneously, each accessible via a domain instead of a port, accessible from outside of your home, properly backed up and with a valid HTTPS connection, and then you hear about this thing called Docker... well, from my experience, you're gonna wake up on a day like this and go to work as a sysadmin with 3 years of experience, basically writing YAML for a living. So in conclusion, apart from some outliers like Plex.tv, I wouldn't call the process layperson-friendly, but hey, it might make your tinkering into a career.
mdavis6890 5y ago
What “lay person” is going to install a web server??? That’s insane. Maybe a lay faang-er would. Lay people work in a factory or shoe store or accounting firm. They have 1 or more kids. They hear what their friends are doing, and as long as it only requires signing up on a web page, they will consider it. They will use the same password as they do for their bank. And that’s FINE! There is life outside technology, and those lay people are busy living it.
- sjmm1989 5y ago
  > What “lay person” is going to install a web server??? That’s insane. You ... might be surprised.
  - spacemanmatt 5y ago
    I've come to recognize my view that "anyone could install this web server" is a view most commonly shared among fellow techies, and not one shared by the greater population.
    - sjmm1989 5y ago
      Yeah. Of course not 'everyone' will be able to, and maybe that's what we should be considering the 'lay person' now... But there is a wide range of knowledge in this space. A 'lay person' is kind of hard to get down to a spot without potentially lumping people together improperly. Take my customer for example. She's not stupid. She knows she could probably fix the computer I am fixing for her, herself. But she also knows there are things she just doesn't know and probably should get someone else who does know those things to do it instead. Is she the lay person? From talking to her, I am pretty sure with a couple quick hours of reading some stuff, she could probably set up a basic Nginx server or something very easily for herself. Etc, etc. Yet, by others standards, she is a lay person because she can't utilize Apache or AWS. So, yeah... that's my take on it.
      - spacemanmatt 5y ago
        I totally started there, knowing a lot of stuff was in my reach but would take some reading to succeed with. It's still hard for me to anticipate who will persist and who will throw their hands up and declare they aren't technical.

by ndiddy 5y ago

Laypeople don't know that systemd exists. They will install a webserver or something and the package manager will automatically install and enable its unit file.

hotpotamus 5y ago

You know, nothing is really ever that simple and this comment makes me realize that. You actually hit on a philosophical difference in package managers lol. Ubuntu (not sure about Debian) will install, enable, and start a package, But Red Hat only installs it, because they expect you to configure the service first.

ncphil 5y ago
Which 90% of the time makes sense because if you want anything more than the barebones default config (which you usually do), that's best done before everything gets spun up. But I've worked with Ubuntu (and Debian) long enough that I now take for granted that some services are going to have to be downed for reconfig almost immediately after installation. The "auto start after install" practice rarely makes much difference in the final result. After over 25 years as a sysadmin I do wonder how non-experts navigate some of this stuff, what with the often incomplete doc and horribly uninformed (or just plain reckless) forum posts they have to work with. The best place to start is still æLeen Frisch's Essential System Administration (whose 1st ed is where I learned the sysadmin craft), but there really isn't much beyond it (unless you go the BSD route and so have the FreeBSD Handbook to lean on).
ddaalluu2 5y ago
That is actually not true for the most part. RHEL-based distros have a vanilla config file, where Ubuntu yes does make some extra efforts to configure the packages in a sensible manner.

Aeolun 5y ago

Hence I have never cared about the difference. As long as the package installs and the service is enabled.

yawnxyz 5y ago

I thought I was a pretty good "tech person" until I read this thread... and now I'm more layperson than what this thread considers a "layperson" bc none of this makes sense to meh aha

number6 5y ago
I drive in the final nail and tell you that the page in the Arch wiki[0] is a wonderful starter on systemd. Ah.. I was there when it was all SystemV vs Upstart vs Systemd... the golden days... [0]:https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd
- jethro_tell 5y ago
  I still have living systems that I put through the manual transition of the init systems and the /usr/ merge.
  - number6 5y ago
    Ah! the /usr/ merge, I remember it being called the great symlink apocalypse.
input_sh 5y ago
systemd → does a lot of things on modern Linux systems, amongst which is dealing with services that should autostart (think: both low-level stuff like Bluetooth or user-level stuff like a Dropbox client or a VPN or whatever). Unit files → fairly simple text files that are used to define such stuff for systemd (usually in /etc/systemd/system and /usr/lib/systemd/system). Package manager → essentially the same as an app store on a phone. It's how you install and update packages (packages could be a fully fledged graphical app or just a terminal command). Webserver → what allows you to "run websites" on your own machine. For the simplest example, if you run `python -m http.server` in a terminal on a Unix-like system, congrats, you can now browse your files in a browser (127.0.0.1:8000). If you know your local IP, you can also open it from a phone and download stuff from your desktop, zero apps or cables or FTPs necessary. So, to decipher that comment above: you usually don't have to worry about how things run automatically because that's usually pre-configured when you install them. In most simple self-hosting scenarios you just "install a website" on your spare laptop or whatever and you're good to go. That website usually serves traffic via a webserver on some port, and you access it via local network IP and a port (example: 192.168.1.100:8000). Now if you go deeper and want to run multiple things simultaneously, each accessible via a domain instead of a port, accessible from outside of your home, properly backed up and with a valid HTTPS connection, and then you hear about this thing called Docker... well, from my experience, you're gonna wake up on a day like this and go to work as a sysadmin with 3 years of experience, basically writing YAML for a living. So in conclusion, apart from some outliers like Plex.tv, I wouldn't call the process layperson-friendly, but hey, it might make your tinkering into a career.

mdavis6890 5y ago

What “lay person” is going to install a web server??? That’s insane. Maybe a lay faang-er would. Lay people work in a factory or shoe store or accounting firm. They have 1 or more kids. They hear what their friends are doing, and as long as it only requires signing up on a web page, they will consider it. They will use the same password as they do for their bank. And that’s FINE! There is life outside technology, and those lay people are busy living it.

sjmm1989 5y ago
> What “lay person” is going to install a web server??? That’s insane. You ... might be surprised.
- spacemanmatt 5y ago
  I've come to recognize my view that "anyone could install this web server" is a view most commonly shared among fellow techies, and not one shared by the greater population.
  - sjmm1989 5y ago
    Yeah. Of course not 'everyone' will be able to, and maybe that's what we should be considering the 'lay person' now... But there is a wide range of knowledge in this space. A 'lay person' is kind of hard to get down to a spot without potentially lumping people together improperly. Take my customer for example. She's not stupid. She knows she could probably fix the computer I am fixing for her, herself. But she also knows there are things she just doesn't know and probably should get someone else who does know those things to do it instead. Is she the lay person? From talking to her, I am pretty sure with a couple quick hours of reading some stuff, she could probably set up a basic Nginx server or something very easily for herself. Etc, etc. Yet, by others standards, she is a lay person because she can't utilize Apache or AWS. So, yeah... that's my take on it.
    - spacemanmatt 5y ago
      I totally started there, knowing a lot of stuff was in my reach but would take some reading to succeed with. It's still hard for me to anticipate who will persist and who will throw their hands up and declare they aren't technical.