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> Sometimes you just need to stop thinking so much and get through the day. I can be moved by this philosophy all the way to tears and crying (and it did happe

> Sometimes you just need to stop thinking so much and get through the day. I can be moved by this philosophy all the way to tears and crying (and it did happen in the past). However, the even more tragic part is that it doesn't exactly apply in today's world where most people are bound to their jobs. If they don't "worry" about the future and quit and try to do something else that doesn't work out... well... rent / mortgage installment is still due in two weeks. I really LOVE the philosophy you cited. I just can't see how it's applicable to today's world. The system is specifically made to keep us as hamsters on wheels.

firasd 5y ago
Yeah I think mindfulness is not about ignoring your problems. It's more about not letting your mind wander unnecessarily. I think this is our gift and curse as humans--we can plan for the future and reminisce on the past, which enables great achievements, but tied up with this kind of 'time traveling' thinking are emotions like anxiety, sadness, disappointment. So if we could somehow just be efficient calculating machines we wouldn't need this philosophy. (Although lately I've been realizing that if we were just cold calculating machines maybe we wouldn't have complex drives and passions, so probably emotions are not just an extraneous 'curse', and are part of why we do what we do.)
- moviewise 5y ago
  > Yeah I think mindfulness is not about ignoring your problems. It's more about not letting your mind wander unnecessarily. Learning to focus is one of the hidden lessons in "Kung Fu Panda." Po's journey allows him to finally reveal to his father his true passion because he learns to focus on his own destiny rather than letting the pressures of the larger society, as represented by his father's expectations, control him.
Swizec 5y ago
Worrying about what will be in 3 years doesn’t help you pay the rent now. Thinking about what was 3 years ago definitely does nothing for your rent now. If the rent is due and there’s no money, what can you do now to fix that? What action can you take, right now, that gets you closer to paying rent? All the worrying in the world does nothing to fix the situation. Yes have a long-term plan, follow a strategy, even make time in the day/week/quarter to realign and think about that stuff. But when shit hits the fan, only doing something right now gets you closer to a solution.
- pdimitar 5y ago
  Yeah, that I like much more. Being able to fix the problems now while doing some minimal planning seems to be a better strategy if we're optimizing for mental health (and we really should).
vaidhy 5y ago
There is a different way to think about this - The problem is the worrying, not that you can live on air or universe juice. Even Buddha needs food, water and shelter. The problem as you correctly put is that people worry, but that does not lead to a solution. There is really no point in worrying - if you cannot change something, why worry about it? If you can change it, why worry? You might have to think deeply about how to change it and act on it, but just worrying is like praying - it gives an semblance of action without actually doing anything. The hamster, the wheel and the cage are illusions. We choose certain things as more important to us than others. You can always quit and walk out, but a lot of times we prioritize our comfort, an (illusory) stable earnings etc. over freedom.
- brightball 5y ago
  “Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do but it doesn’t get you anywhere.” - Van Wilder
- UncleOxidant 5y ago
  > people worry, but that does not lead to a solution. Jesus said, "who of you by worrying can add one moment to their lifespan?" (or in another saying "...add one inch to their stature?")
- lapitopi 5y ago
  I'm currently reading Thich Nhat Hanh's Peace Is Every Step [0]. In it he says something similar. It's not that worrying is not useful. You need to worry for sustenance, shelter. But a lot of thinking that we as modern humans do is useless. Me going over over on why I didn't get that job, or why did my colleague say or ..., you get the idea. Mindfulness can help with this a bit where if you find yourself caught in a useless thought loop, you can step back and try to figure out if you do have agency, if not, just move on. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Peace-Every-Step-Mindfulness-Everyday/dp/0553351397 https://www.amazon.com/Peace-Every-Step-Mindfulness-Everyday...
- spc476 5y ago
  My three rules of worrying: 1. Can I do something about it right now? If so, do it, and stop worrying. 2. Can I do something about it later? If so, wait til later, do it, and stop worrying. 3. There is nothing I can do. If so, there's nothing to worry about because I can't do anything about it.
UncleOxidant 5y ago
> However, the even more tragic part is that it doesn't exactly apply in today's world where most people are bound to their jobs. I'm not sure it's really all that different now than it has ever been. Sure, it's not like people were always and everywhere working for some other entity in what we'd tend to recognize as a "job", but there has always been a struggle. The struggle in the past was to be able to grow enough food to last the winter to stave off starvation.
barrenko 5y ago
You'll be okay without a job, money, maybe even housing and food.
UnpossibleJim 5y ago
We are more mobile today than at any point in history, to be honest (at least in western European style cultures... for a large portion of the world, this statement might hold true, but to a much lesser degree, if at all). Indentures servitude has been abolished to a large degree (this can be argued, but this is argumentative on the basis of predatory and college loans) and slavery has been outlawed (again, this can be argued than prison labor is a form of slave labor in states like California when used to fight wildfires, but I'm not sure how much water those arguments hold). Conscripted military service is gone in America and a lot of European countries (though several have mandatory service requirements). Job mobility and the ability to save money is, while not easier than any point in history on a point by point history basis (the 60's and 80's, I believe were easier... check my math, I might be wrong, there may have been others), on a macro scale of history - comparing medieval, renaissance or previous Europe and Russian and Chinese wealth distribution, mobility and freedoms of self - rent/mortgage may be due, but you can still break your agreement, sell your house (there may be a penalty), quit your job and be a homeless ascetic if you want. There are dozens of YouTube channels on VanLife you can watch people doing it... not for me, but you can do it. You can join an abbey (though, I think you could have always done this... I'm not sure about this). You can leave the system and jump off the wheel, you just have to jump off the wheel and stop getting what the wheel gives you.
- wahnfrieden 5y ago
  We have less freedom of movement at will and ability to disobey orders than at many long stretches of civilization, at least according to anthro and archaeology research covered in Graeber’s last/new book
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I hope you don't mind, but I've reformatted your comment so that I could read it more easily and thought others would benefit as well: We are more mobile today than at any point in history, to be honest[0]. Indentures servitude has been abolished to a large degree[1] and slavery has been outlawed[2]. Conscripted military service is gone in America and a lot of European countries[3]. Job mobility and the ability to save money is, while not easier than any point in history on a point by point history basis[4], on a macro scale of history - comparing medieval, renaissance or previous Europe and Russian and Chinese wealth distribution, mobility and freedoms of self - rent/mortgage may be due, but you can still break your agreement, sell your house[5], quit your job and be a homeless ascetic if you want. There are dozens of YouTube channels on VanLife you can watch people doing it... not for me, but you can do it. You can join an abbey[6]. You can leave the system and jump off the wheel, you just have to jump off the wheel and stop getting what the wheel gives you. [0] at least in western European style cultures... for a large portion of the world, this statement might hold true, but to a much lesser degree, if at all [1] this can be argued, but this is argumentative on the basis of predatory and college loans [2] again, this can be argued than prison labor is a form of slave labor in states like California when used to fight wildfires, but I'm not sure how much water those arguments hold [3] though several have mandatory service requirements [4] the 60's and 80's, I believe were easier... check my math, I might be wrong, there may have been others [5] there may be a penalty [6] though, I think you could have always done this... I'm not sure about this
jimbokun 5y ago
The entire premise of the website where we're discussing this topic, was to create a culture of equipping programmers to escape the hamster wheel of employment by starting their own businesses. No, it's not easy. But there's also the early retirement people, who spend little and save aggressively to escape the hamster wheel. And there is also the mentality of not letting the thing you do to pay the rent or mortgage define you. Put in your 8 hours, but don't let it consume you outside of those hours. You don't have to spend your whole life in the noodle shop. There are other ways to live.
- the_common_man 5y ago
  > The entire premise of the website where we're discussing this topic, was to create a culture of equipping programmers to escape the hamster wheel of employment by starting their own businesses. This seems like a minority these days. Most people are just chasing the house ownership hamster wheel.

firasd 5y ago

Yeah I think mindfulness is not about ignoring your problems. It's more about not letting your mind wander unnecessarily. I think this is our gift and curse as humans--we can plan for the future and reminisce on the past, which enables great achievements, but tied up with this kind of 'time traveling' thinking are emotions like anxiety, sadness, disappointment. So if we could somehow just be efficient calculating machines we wouldn't need this philosophy. (Although lately I've been realizing that if we were just cold calculating machines maybe we wouldn't have complex drives and passions, so probably emotions are not just an extraneous 'curse', and are part of why we do what we do.)

moviewise 5y ago
> Yeah I think mindfulness is not about ignoring your problems. It's more about not letting your mind wander unnecessarily. Learning to focus is one of the hidden lessons in "Kung Fu Panda." Po's journey allows him to finally reveal to his father his true passion because he learns to focus on his own destiny rather than letting the pressures of the larger society, as represented by his father's expectations, control him.

Swizec 5y ago

Worrying about what will be in 3 years doesn’t help you pay the rent now. Thinking about what was 3 years ago definitely does nothing for your rent now. If the rent is due and there’s no money, what can you do now to fix that? What action can you take, right now, that gets you closer to paying rent? All the worrying in the world does nothing to fix the situation. Yes have a long-term plan, follow a strategy, even make time in the day/week/quarter to realign and think about that stuff. But when shit hits the fan, only doing something right now gets you closer to a solution.

pdimitar 5y ago
Yeah, that I like much more. Being able to fix the problems now while doing some minimal planning seems to be a better strategy if we're optimizing for mental health (and we really should).

vaidhy 5y ago

There is a different way to think about this - The problem is the worrying, not that you can live on air or universe juice. Even Buddha needs food, water and shelter. The problem as you correctly put is that people worry, but that does not lead to a solution. There is really no point in worrying - if you cannot change something, why worry about it? If you can change it, why worry? You might have to think deeply about how to change it and act on it, but just worrying is like praying - it gives an semblance of action without actually doing anything. The hamster, the wheel and the cage are illusions. We choose certain things as more important to us than others. You can always quit and walk out, but a lot of times we prioritize our comfort, an (illusory) stable earnings etc. over freedom.

brightball 5y ago
“Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do but it doesn’t get you anywhere.” - Van Wilder
UncleOxidant 5y ago
> people worry, but that does not lead to a solution. Jesus said, "who of you by worrying can add one moment to their lifespan?" (or in another saying "...add one inch to their stature?")
lapitopi 5y ago
I'm currently reading Thich Nhat Hanh's Peace Is Every Step [0]. In it he says something similar. It's not that worrying is not useful. You need to worry for sustenance, shelter. But a lot of thinking that we as modern humans do is useless. Me going over over on why I didn't get that job, or why did my colleague say or ..., you get the idea. Mindfulness can help with this a bit where if you find yourself caught in a useless thought loop, you can step back and try to figure out if you do have agency, if not, just move on. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Peace-Every-Step-Mindfulness-Everyday/dp/0553351397 https://www.amazon.com/Peace-Every-Step-Mindfulness-Everyday...
spc476 5y ago
My three rules of worrying: 1. Can I do something about it right now? If so, do it, and stop worrying. 2. Can I do something about it later? If so, wait til later, do it, and stop worrying. 3. There is nothing I can do. If so, there's nothing to worry about because I can't do anything about it.

UncleOxidant 5y ago

> However, the even more tragic part is that it doesn't exactly apply in today's world where most people are bound to their jobs. I'm not sure it's really all that different now than it has ever been. Sure, it's not like people were always and everywhere working for some other entity in what we'd tend to recognize as a "job", but there has always been a struggle. The struggle in the past was to be able to grow enough food to last the winter to stave off starvation.

barrenko 5y ago

You'll be okay without a job, money, maybe even housing and food.

UnpossibleJim 5y ago

We are more mobile today than at any point in history, to be honest (at least in western European style cultures... for a large portion of the world, this statement might hold true, but to a much lesser degree, if at all). Indentures servitude has been abolished to a large degree (this can be argued, but this is argumentative on the basis of predatory and college loans) and slavery has been outlawed (again, this can be argued than prison labor is a form of slave labor in states like California when used to fight wildfires, but I'm not sure how much water those arguments hold). Conscripted military service is gone in America and a lot of European countries (though several have mandatory service requirements). Job mobility and the ability to save money is, while not easier than any point in history on a point by point history basis (the 60's and 80's, I believe were easier... check my math, I might be wrong, there may have been others), on a macro scale of history - comparing medieval, renaissance or previous Europe and Russian and Chinese wealth distribution, mobility and freedoms of self - rent/mortgage may be due, but you can still break your agreement, sell your house (there may be a penalty), quit your job and be a homeless ascetic if you want. There are dozens of YouTube channels on VanLife you can watch people doing it... not for me, but you can do it. You can join an abbey (though, I think you could have always done this... I'm not sure about this). You can leave the system and jump off the wheel, you just have to jump off the wheel and stop getting what the wheel gives you.

wahnfrieden 5y ago
We have less freedom of movement at will and ability to disobey orders than at many long stretches of civilization, at least according to anthro and archaeology research covered in Graeber’s last/new book
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
I hope you don't mind, but I've reformatted your comment so that I could read it more easily and thought others would benefit as well: We are more mobile today than at any point in history, to be honest[0]. Indentures servitude has been abolished to a large degree[1] and slavery has been outlawed[2]. Conscripted military service is gone in America and a lot of European countries[3]. Job mobility and the ability to save money is, while not easier than any point in history on a point by point history basis[4], on a macro scale of history - comparing medieval, renaissance or previous Europe and Russian and Chinese wealth distribution, mobility and freedoms of self - rent/mortgage may be due, but you can still break your agreement, sell your house[5], quit your job and be a homeless ascetic if you want. There are dozens of YouTube channels on VanLife you can watch people doing it... not for me, but you can do it. You can join an abbey[6]. You can leave the system and jump off the wheel, you just have to jump off the wheel and stop getting what the wheel gives you. [0] at least in western European style cultures... for a large portion of the world, this statement might hold true, but to a much lesser degree, if at all [1] this can be argued, but this is argumentative on the basis of predatory and college loans [2] again, this can be argued than prison labor is a form of slave labor in states like California when used to fight wildfires, but I'm not sure how much water those arguments hold [3] though several have mandatory service requirements [4] the 60's and 80's, I believe were easier... check my math, I might be wrong, there may have been others [5] there may be a penalty [6] though, I think you could have always done this... I'm not sure about this

jimbokun 5y ago

The entire premise of the website where we're discussing this topic, was to create a culture of equipping programmers to escape the hamster wheel of employment by starting their own businesses. No, it's not easy. But there's also the early retirement people, who spend little and save aggressively to escape the hamster wheel. And there is also the mentality of not letting the thing you do to pay the rent or mortgage define you. Put in your 8 hours, but don't let it consume you outside of those hours. You don't have to spend your whole life in the noodle shop. There are other ways to live.

the_common_man 5y ago
> The entire premise of the website where we're discussing this topic, was to create a culture of equipping programmers to escape the hamster wheel of employment by starting their own businesses. This seems like a minority these days. Most people are just chasing the house ownership hamster wheel.