7 ms·

I’m using this as a daily driver. It’s usable and the security benefits are definitely important when working with multiple security domains (separate clients

I’m using this as a daily driver. It’s usable and the security benefits are definitely important when working with multiple security domains (separate clients each with their own confidential data and third-party dependencies, where you don’t want one client’s malicious NPM dependency affecting the other). However, there are cons. It’s only really usable in a stationary environment; it completely kills battery life and even basic tasks such as (non-HD) video display maxes out a single CPU core so it’s just not worth trying on a laptop. Hibernation doesn’t seem to be supported by default which becomes risky when combined with the extreme power usage.

fsflover 5y ago
Indeed the battery life is shorter than with normal Linux, but it's fine with me. Concerning the hibernation, see this: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2414 https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2414.
orblivion 5y ago
I use it on my Librem-15 v3. I can confirm that it's a PITA as far as performance. One "nice" thing is that if a process makes your VM unresponsive, it's just about always contained to that VM. You can kill it and restart it and not interrupt anything else. The other problem is memory. I have to decide to between Signal Desktop and development sometimes. But it's my main machine for what I care. I love the peace of mind running random things if the need comes up. For more intensive stuff, media games etc, I have a previous machine running Ubuntu.
- ReactiveJelly 5y ago
  > if a process makes your VM unresponsive, it's just about always contained to that VM. I still wonder why kernels can't just handle this properly. I've seen it in both Windows and Linux systems, something takes all the CPU or I/O or RAM, and the UI is so starved that you can't kill it. Shouldn't that already be handled by things like virtual memory, and the kernel scheduler? Why do modern OSes, that have to protect against such complicated attacks like Spectre, struggle to do what the very first multi-tasking kernels promised before I was born?
  - orblivion 5y ago
    Yeah, beats me.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    The task manager in Windows has a higher priority than everything else if I recall correctly. Its not pure ram or cpu usage that causes you to be unable to reach it but waiting for blocking sys calls I'd suspect.
  - seanw444 5y ago
    Isn't this what a microkernel is supposed to accomplish?
    - aidenn0 5y ago
      Microkernel vs monolith has very little relation to resource (time and space) allocation, other than the fact that a microkernel is going to have an easier time with preventing runaway space usage of kernel services.
  - ShowalkKama 5y ago
    this is what SysReq is for. >The magic SysRq key is a key combination understood by the Linux kernel, which allows the user to perform various low-level commands regardless of the system's state. It is often used to recover from freezes, or to reboot a computer without corrupting the filesystem.[1] Its effect is similar to the computer's hardware reset button (or power switch) but with many more options and much more control. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key?lang=en https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key?lang=en
    - codethief 5y ago
      Not really. The UI will still be unresponsive and the only thing you can do is reboot the system safely using Magic SysRq. What OP is asking about is why the UI is unresponsive in the first place.
      - 5y ago
isodude 5y ago
I've been using this as a daily driver for at least 5 years now. Only laptops so far, with 4+ cores and 32+GB RAM and 500G+ disk. It was working fine on my Lenovo T470p, and it runs pretty sweet on Lenovo P14s. Except that suspend is not working. ( Hopefully is resolved soon ). It's always a problem with battery, but with suspend working fine it's quite easy to get a solid 30 days uptime even though you move around. ~3h runtime with ~10 vms running. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but I wouldn't choose anything else if I would do it all over. Totally worth the extreme learning curve ;-)
- thinkmassive 5y ago
  Is it worth trying on a laptop with less RAM, like 8 or 16gb?
  - fsflover 5y ago
    Yes, see the requirements: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/system-requirements/ https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/system-requirements/.
  - isodude 5y ago
    To make Firefox happy inside a VM it takes up about 2GB RAM. Dom0 eats up 1G RAM. sys-net, sys-firewall, sys-usb eats up another 1G RAM. My collegue actually runs on 16G, but he has to consider memory when starting a VM, but it's doable. You can run on 8G, but it wouldn't be a good daily driver. But maybe if you have a very specific purpose? 24G+ is comfortable. I'm currently at 48G and have 43G "mapped" to VMs. It's very easy to use a lot of RAM!
    - fsflover 5y ago
      You can drastically decrease the memory footprint if you use minimal templates: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/templates/minimal https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/templates/minimal. But even with normal templates, one can run several VMs, and it's much more secure (and even convenient) than an ordinary OS.
    - lapinot 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

fsflover 5y ago

Indeed the battery life is shorter than with normal Linux, but it's fine with me. Concerning the hibernation, see this: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2414 https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2414.

orblivion 5y ago

I use it on my Librem-15 v3. I can confirm that it's a PITA as far as performance. One "nice" thing is that if a process makes your VM unresponsive, it's just about always contained to that VM. You can kill it and restart it and not interrupt anything else. The other problem is memory. I have to decide to between Signal Desktop and development sometimes. But it's my main machine for what I care. I love the peace of mind running random things if the need comes up. For more intensive stuff, media games etc, I have a previous machine running Ubuntu.

ReactiveJelly 5y ago
> if a process makes your VM unresponsive, it's just about always contained to that VM. I still wonder why kernels can't just handle this properly. I've seen it in both Windows and Linux systems, something takes all the CPU or I/O or RAM, and the UI is so starved that you can't kill it. Shouldn't that already be handled by things like virtual memory, and the kernel scheduler? Why do modern OSes, that have to protect against such complicated attacks like Spectre, struggle to do what the very first multi-tasking kernels promised before I was born?
- orblivion 5y ago
  Yeah, beats me.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  The task manager in Windows has a higher priority than everything else if I recall correctly. Its not pure ram or cpu usage that causes you to be unable to reach it but waiting for blocking sys calls I'd suspect.
- seanw444 5y ago
  Isn't this what a microkernel is supposed to accomplish?
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    Microkernel vs monolith has very little relation to resource (time and space) allocation, other than the fact that a microkernel is going to have an easier time with preventing runaway space usage of kernel services.
- ShowalkKama 5y ago
  this is what SysReq is for. >The magic SysRq key is a key combination understood by the Linux kernel, which allows the user to perform various low-level commands regardless of the system's state. It is often used to recover from freezes, or to reboot a computer without corrupting the filesystem.[1] Its effect is similar to the computer's hardware reset button (or power switch) but with many more options and much more control. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key?lang=en https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key?lang=en
  - codethief 5y ago
    Not really. The UI will still be unresponsive and the only thing you can do is reboot the system safely using Magic SysRq. What OP is asking about is why the UI is unresponsive in the first place.
    - 5y ago

isodude 5y ago

I've been using this as a daily driver for at least 5 years now. Only laptops so far, with 4+ cores and 32+GB RAM and 500G+ disk. It was working fine on my Lenovo T470p, and it runs pretty sweet on Lenovo P14s. Except that suspend is not working. ( Hopefully is resolved soon ). It's always a problem with battery, but with suspend working fine it's quite easy to get a solid 30 days uptime even though you move around. ~3h runtime with ~10 vms running. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but I wouldn't choose anything else if I would do it all over. Totally worth the extreme learning curve ;-)

thinkmassive 5y ago
Is it worth trying on a laptop with less RAM, like 8 or 16gb?
- fsflover 5y ago
  Yes, see the requirements: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/system-requirements/ https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/system-requirements/.
- isodude 5y ago
  To make Firefox happy inside a VM it takes up about 2GB RAM. Dom0 eats up 1G RAM. sys-net, sys-firewall, sys-usb eats up another 1G RAM. My collegue actually runs on 16G, but he has to consider memory when starting a VM, but it's doable. You can run on 8G, but it wouldn't be a good daily driver. But maybe if you have a very specific purpose? 24G+ is comfortable. I'm currently at 48G and have 43G "mapped" to VMs. It's very easy to use a lot of RAM!
  - fsflover 5y ago
    You can drastically decrease the memory footprint if you use minimal templates: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/templates/minimal https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/templates/minimal. But even with normal templates, one can run several VMs, and it's much more secure (and even convenient) than an ordinary OS.
  - lapinot 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]