4 ms·

They added this 500 nits limitation to always leave room for HDR, so that SDR and HDR "coexist" properly. But it looks terrible imo I think they failed on that

They added this 500 nits limitation to always leave room for HDR, so that SDR and HDR "coexist" properly. But it looks terrible imo I think they failed on that front. Also they want HDR to be a selling point. Not many phones take HDR videos and images. "It goes brighter" is what makes HDR pop.

api 5y ago
I have a Samsung monitor that does this too, but it has an override in its menus. In normal mode it’s stupidly dim. HDR looks like shit, so I just want SDR with proper brightness.
- randyrand 5y ago
  I never thought I would dislike HDR, but Somehow companies are managing to make it a terrible experience on PCs (macs included).
  - api 5y ago
    It always looks washed out. Is it perhaps only for certain games or image/video editors that support it properly? Or does the support overall just suck?
orlp 5y ago
I never thought this would become relevant in a context like this, but here it is, and it is painfully relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMSV4OteqBE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMSV4OteqBE
ricardobeat 5y ago
What makes it look terrible? The majority of consumer displays max out at 300-400 nits. This is the whole point of HDR, webpages are not designed with “sunlight-white” intended for the background.
- buildbot 5y ago
  Yeah, this! Nobody wants a #FFFFFF page at 1600 nits, unless it's noon and they are outside!
  - randyrand 5y ago
    If it's noon outside you'll actually want more like 10,000 nits. 1,600 nits is useful for working indoors next to a large window.
- kalleboo 5y ago
  I don't know what the cause is (the iPhone camera or the display methodology), but whenever I watch an HDR video shot on my iPhone on the MacBook Pro XDR display it looks really unnatural and bad. HDR demo YouTube videos in full screen look fine, so maybe it's the iPhone, or it's the integration with the SDR UI, not sure.
- randyrand 5y ago
  This is not the right way to think about it. What nits are books designed for? Do books look bad when you read next to a window despite being well past 1,600 nits? The comfortable amount of nits is entirely dependent on ambient lighting conditions. Next to a window, 1600 nits can look dim. What Apple is doing now looks terrible because SDR and HDR do not coexist well at all. Any HDR video even ones that you wouldn't think would be "bright", blow up the screen while your SDR content next to it is now hard to read. HDR and SDR should have a comparable average brightness level with only "highlights" going "brighter than bright", but that's not what they do, they make the entire video brighter. People want uniform brightness. If I want my entire screen to go bright, I can set the damn brightness myself.
  - ricardobeat 5y ago
    > HDR and SDR should have a comparable average brightness level with only "highlights" going "brighter than bright" This is exactly how it works. When I open a video and switch between 500 nits and 1600 nits in Display Preferences, everything looks exactly the same, except for the highlights in the video. Of course outdoors daylight scenes will have a higher average brightness. There is no point to 'high dynamic range' if a bright sky is the same brightness as a sheet of paper, or your website background; it's supposed to represent real-life brightness and contrast in photography & video, and there is no reason for your graphical interfaces to reach those light levels, i.e. Slack's white background should not be close in brightness to a cloudy sky. If they didn't "limit" non-HDR content to 500 nits (again, already above the average monitor), how would it be possible to have HDR at all? I don't see how the content could become harder to read, when the light output is exactly the same. Your description reminds me of a shitty Benq 'HDR400' monitor, which would artificially limit the light output for non-HDR content making it gray and dull. That is not the case with the mini-led macs or better HDR monitors. Some examples of decent HDR - these look fine next to a browser or anything else on a MBP 14", and also in Windows with HDR on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2vsvdq8nw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2vsvdq8nw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5brujY1PvpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5brujY1PvpY If you have any counter-examples or the particular setup you think looks bad, I'm curious to try it myself.
argsnd 5y ago
All of their phones take HDR videos and images.

api 5y ago

I have a Samsung monitor that does this too, but it has an override in its menus. In normal mode it’s stupidly dim. HDR looks like shit, so I just want SDR with proper brightness.

randyrand 5y ago
I never thought I would dislike HDR, but Somehow companies are managing to make it a terrible experience on PCs (macs included).
- api 5y ago
  It always looks washed out. Is it perhaps only for certain games or image/video editors that support it properly? Or does the support overall just suck?

orlp 5y ago

I never thought this would become relevant in a context like this, but here it is, and it is painfully relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMSV4OteqBE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMSV4OteqBE

ricardobeat 5y ago

What makes it look terrible? The majority of consumer displays max out at 300-400 nits. This is the whole point of HDR, webpages are not designed with “sunlight-white” intended for the background.

buildbot 5y ago
Yeah, this! Nobody wants a #FFFFFF page at 1600 nits, unless it's noon and they are outside!
- randyrand 5y ago
  If it's noon outside you'll actually want more like 10,000 nits. 1,600 nits is useful for working indoors next to a large window.
kalleboo 5y ago
I don't know what the cause is (the iPhone camera or the display methodology), but whenever I watch an HDR video shot on my iPhone on the MacBook Pro XDR display it looks really unnatural and bad. HDR demo YouTube videos in full screen look fine, so maybe it's the iPhone, or it's the integration with the SDR UI, not sure.
randyrand 5y ago
This is not the right way to think about it. What nits are books designed for? Do books look bad when you read next to a window despite being well past 1,600 nits? The comfortable amount of nits is entirely dependent on ambient lighting conditions. Next to a window, 1600 nits can look dim. What Apple is doing now looks terrible because SDR and HDR do not coexist well at all. Any HDR video even ones that you wouldn't think would be "bright", blow up the screen while your SDR content next to it is now hard to read. HDR and SDR should have a comparable average brightness level with only "highlights" going "brighter than bright", but that's not what they do, they make the entire video brighter. People want uniform brightness. If I want my entire screen to go bright, I can set the damn brightness myself.
- ricardobeat 5y ago
  > HDR and SDR should have a comparable average brightness level with only "highlights" going "brighter than bright" This is exactly how it works. When I open a video and switch between 500 nits and 1600 nits in Display Preferences, everything looks exactly the same, except for the highlights in the video. Of course outdoors daylight scenes will have a higher average brightness. There is no point to 'high dynamic range' if a bright sky is the same brightness as a sheet of paper, or your website background; it's supposed to represent real-life brightness and contrast in photography & video, and there is no reason for your graphical interfaces to reach those light levels, i.e. Slack's white background should not be close in brightness to a cloudy sky. If they didn't "limit" non-HDR content to 500 nits (again, already above the average monitor), how would it be possible to have HDR at all? I don't see how the content could become harder to read, when the light output is exactly the same. Your description reminds me of a shitty Benq 'HDR400' monitor, which would artificially limit the light output for non-HDR content making it gray and dull. That is not the case with the mini-led macs or better HDR monitors. Some examples of decent HDR - these look fine next to a browser or anything else on a MBP 14", and also in Windows with HDR on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2vsvdq8nw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX2vsvdq8nw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5brujY1PvpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5brujY1PvpY If you have any counter-examples or the particular setup you think looks bad, I'm curious to try it myself.

argsnd 5y ago

All of their phones take HDR videos and images.