4 ms·

If you can't explicitly say it, can you at least describe in what ways it is "less free than, say, the 1990s?" If not, the comment loses value.

jimbokun 5y ago
In the 90s the culturally most influential people tended to mock censors and championed being “politically incorrect”. Al and Tipper Gore were roundly mocked for the record rating system they championed. R rated movies were far more successful at the box office, with lots of questionable content by today’s standards. Pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable to say was considered cool. Today, the academic and cultural power brokers are the biggest champions of shutting down “objectionable” speech.
- long_time_gone 5y ago
  I appreciate the followup. > Al and Tipper Gore were roundly mocked for the record rating system they championed. Which has a direct mirror in the mocking of Republicans who are currently trying to ban books and ideas (CRT) they don't like. A lot of your idea rests on the concept of "culturally influential people" pushing these actions. Again, I don't see the evidence of that, seems like a boogeyman. > R rated movies were far more successful at the box office, with lots of questionable content by today’s standards. Odd to compare 90s box office to today's box office given the impacts of COVID and streaming. We didn't have Amazon Prime, Netflix, Hulu, Paramount, HBO Max, Disney Plus, and more. You would need to add all the R-rated movies from those platforms to make a comparison. Either way, 4 of the 5 highest grossing R-rated movies (inflation adjusted) came out after 2000 [1]. > Today, the academic and cultural power brokers are the biggest champions of shutting down “objectionable” speech. We definitely hear more complaining about it, today. I haven't seen evidence that it actually occurs more frequently. If anything, I see the opposite influence in the race to ban scary books and transgender people. Those ideas aren't coming from "cultural" leaders or "academics". That said, it is far easier to be gay or transgendered today than the 90s. We also just had a President who described people as ‘fat pigs,’ ‘dogs,’ ‘slobs,’ and ‘disgusting animals.’ He also 'told a contestant on Celebrity Apprentice it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees …” [2] I don't think that would have been a good electoral strategy in the 90s, probably would have gotten him "cancelled." [1] https://www.the-numbers.com/market/mpaa-rating/R-(US) https://www.the-numbers.com/market/mpaa-rating/R-(US) [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/30/political-correctness-how-the-right-invented-phantom-enemy-donald-trump https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/30/political-co...
  - jimbokun 5y ago
    The link to R rated movie statistics shows a steady drop in marketshare, excluding a weird blip in 2020. Probably an artifact of Covid? Trump is the chief catalyst of Cancel Culture, in my opinion. His violation of every norm of decency and blatant cruelty created a backlash and a desire for retaliation for anyone seen to be in the same camp as Trump.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      The drop in R rated movie share in the box office is almost certainly a result of streaming, not a change in cultural taboos. The linked chart only includes people who paid money specifically to watch a movie in a theater, and does not include movies watched on Netflix or Hulu. > created a backlash and a desire for retaliation for anyone seen to be in the same camp as Trump. Trump also demanded basically anyone who was ever insufficiently nice to him get fired. If anyone was for “cancel culture” it would be him. But like everything else in his life, he wasn’t very good at affecting those changes.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  > In the 90s the culturally most influential people tended to mock censors and championed being “politically incorrect” There is a sizable industry still doing that exact same thing today. Instead of saying that they’re “politically incorrect” they say that they’ve been “cancelled”. It seems like this line of discussion is not only alive and well, it is quite lucrative too, which more than a tiny bit undermines the core premise of what being “cancelled” means. > R rated movies were far more successful at the box office, with lots of questionable content by today’s standards. As a sibling comment pointed out, this is factually incorrect. You also need to adjust for the fact that the internet exists, and various social and economic pressures are sending more R rated content directly to streaming. Are there fewer R rated movies in theaters because of how sensitive we are, or are you just preferring to watch R rated content at home rather than in the theater? > Pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable to say was considered cool. Given the rise of the alt right and the dirtbag left, pushing boundaries is still very popular and lucrative. > Today, the academic and cultural power brokers are the biggest champions of shutting down “objectionable” speech. [Citation Needed]

jimbokun 5y ago

In the 90s the culturally most influential people tended to mock censors and championed being “politically incorrect”. Al and Tipper Gore were roundly mocked for the record rating system they championed. R rated movies were far more successful at the box office, with lots of questionable content by today’s standards. Pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable to say was considered cool. Today, the academic and cultural power brokers are the biggest champions of shutting down “objectionable” speech.

long_time_gone 5y ago
I appreciate the followup. > Al and Tipper Gore were roundly mocked for the record rating system they championed. Which has a direct mirror in the mocking of Republicans who are currently trying to ban books and ideas (CRT) they don't like. A lot of your idea rests on the concept of "culturally influential people" pushing these actions. Again, I don't see the evidence of that, seems like a boogeyman. > R rated movies were far more successful at the box office, with lots of questionable content by today’s standards. Odd to compare 90s box office to today's box office given the impacts of COVID and streaming. We didn't have Amazon Prime, Netflix, Hulu, Paramount, HBO Max, Disney Plus, and more. You would need to add all the R-rated movies from those platforms to make a comparison. Either way, 4 of the 5 highest grossing R-rated movies (inflation adjusted) came out after 2000 [1]. > Today, the academic and cultural power brokers are the biggest champions of shutting down “objectionable” speech. We definitely hear more complaining about it, today. I haven't seen evidence that it actually occurs more frequently. If anything, I see the opposite influence in the race to ban scary books and transgender people. Those ideas aren't coming from "cultural" leaders or "academics". That said, it is far easier to be gay or transgendered today than the 90s. We also just had a President who described people as ‘fat pigs,’ ‘dogs,’ ‘slobs,’ and ‘disgusting animals.’ He also 'told a contestant on Celebrity Apprentice it would be a pretty picture to see her on her knees …” [2] I don't think that would have been a good electoral strategy in the 90s, probably would have gotten him "cancelled." [1] https://www.the-numbers.com/market/mpaa-rating/R-(US) https://www.the-numbers.com/market/mpaa-rating/R-(US) [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/30/political-correctness-how-the-right-invented-phantom-enemy-donald-trump https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/30/political-co...
- jimbokun 5y ago
  The link to R rated movie statistics shows a steady drop in marketshare, excluding a weird blip in 2020. Probably an artifact of Covid? Trump is the chief catalyst of Cancel Culture, in my opinion. His violation of every norm of decency and blatant cruelty created a backlash and a desire for retaliation for anyone seen to be in the same camp as Trump.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    The drop in R rated movie share in the box office is almost certainly a result of streaming, not a change in cultural taboos. The linked chart only includes people who paid money specifically to watch a movie in a theater, and does not include movies watched on Netflix or Hulu. > created a backlash and a desire for retaliation for anyone seen to be in the same camp as Trump. Trump also demanded basically anyone who was ever insufficiently nice to him get fired. If anyone was for “cancel culture” it would be him. But like everything else in his life, he wasn’t very good at affecting those changes.
ashtonkem 5y ago
> In the 90s the culturally most influential people tended to mock censors and championed being “politically incorrect” There is a sizable industry still doing that exact same thing today. Instead of saying that they’re “politically incorrect” they say that they’ve been “cancelled”. It seems like this line of discussion is not only alive and well, it is quite lucrative too, which more than a tiny bit undermines the core premise of what being “cancelled” means. > R rated movies were far more successful at the box office, with lots of questionable content by today’s standards. As a sibling comment pointed out, this is factually incorrect. You also need to adjust for the fact that the internet exists, and various social and economic pressures are sending more R rated content directly to streaming. Are there fewer R rated movies in theaters because of how sensitive we are, or are you just preferring to watch R rated content at home rather than in the theater? > Pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable to say was considered cool. Given the rise of the alt right and the dirtbag left, pushing boundaries is still very popular and lucrative. > Today, the academic and cultural power brokers are the biggest champions of shutting down “objectionable” speech. [Citation Needed]