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February 21st. That aged about as well as most newspaper columnists' brayings.

by tuatoru 5y ago

oxff 5y ago
- _0w8t 5y ago
  Russia wanted to take Ukraine long before Zelensky or any NATO expansion or even Putin, see https://youtu.be/IavEOx3hUAk https://youtu.be/IavEOx3hUAk , an interview of Dzhokhar Dudaev, Chechen leader during the the war with Russia in 1994-1995.
- sssc 5y ago
  I would say that the fact that his country is at war with a super power is more likely to correlate with the psichotic personality of the leader of the super power than with him being a comedian. He has inspired loyalty and drive in his people which is all / as good as a general could do now
- phs318u 5y ago
  So you're suggesting that for a sovereign power to consider joining NATO is "flirting irresponsibly". Can I assume that you think it irresponsible because Ukraine borders Russia? If so, that ship sailed years ago. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are all NATO members (that happened under Putin's first stretch as president). If Russia wanted to maintain a NATO-free buffer around its borders, what lesson do you think attacking the country that isn't a NATO member sends to the others? Surely it's "let's join NATO before Putin sends in the tanks". I'll believe otherwise when Putin attacks Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia. I won't hold my breath.
  - oxff 5y ago
    > So you're suggesting that for a sovereign power to consider joining NATO is "flirting irresponsibly". This was indeed quite irresponsible of Ukraine, as we can see: they are now at war with Russia without any real support from the side they were negotiating with (USA / NATO have not and will not deploy to protect Ukraine). The losses (ref. the refugee count, loss of territory) have already been deeply damaging to Ukraine and its future: they were already aging, female dominated population prior to this with very bad economy. I cannot call this behavior responsible in any interpretation; and if these are sovereign actors then the armed veto is legitimate tool in order to pursue national interests. > Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are all NATO members (that happened under Putin's first stretch as president). I think the total number of tanks Baltic states have is around 0; Russia has something like 12,000+. Ukraine has the second largest army in Europe after Russia. Russian govt. probably considers (at this point) it a mistake to not intervene in the Baltic NATO process though. > If Russia wanted to maintain a NATO-free buffer around its borders, what lesson do you think attacking the country that isn't a NATO member sends to the others? From the point of view of Russian strategical behavior & deterrence something had to change in the way Russian govt. behaves to stop the further expansion into Ukraine. Clearly, whatever calculus they used previously for strategical deterrence was not enough to stop the expansion (hence, the expansion towards Russia over time).
    - FrenchAmerican 5y ago
      This is pure Putin's propaganda.
    - vegai_ 5y ago
      There's a good point hidden in there, in the Yoda sense. Do or do not; there is no try. I.e. if you wanna join NATO, a lot more energy should be put into joining NATO and far less into talking about joining NATO. But perhaps in real, non-armchair politics, you cannot have one without the other.
      - oxff 5y ago
        I try to observe things from "30 thousand feet", the current climate in Western countries is hysterical, emotional and it clouds a lot of things. Mostly try to keep it to Thomas Schelling's teachings when analyzing a given situation (behavior & deterrence being the important keywords).
        vegai_ 5y ago
        > the current climate in Western countries is hysterical, emotional and it clouds a lot of things. Sure, but in contrast, the earlier climate was complacent and submissive to all the evil things Putin did during his reign. We might be in the other end of the spectrum right now, but the other end wasn't a good position either.
- vegai_ 5y ago
  >He flirted irresponsibly with NATO Ukraine has been wanting to get into NATO since 2008, and really wanted to get into NATO since Russia illegally annexed Crimea in 2014. All this happened before Zelensky's presidency, which started in 2019. Also popular opinion has been pro-NATO since 2014, and Ukraine is a democracy. > and now his country is at war with a military superpower. Russia is not a military superpower.
  - pbourke 5y ago
    > Russia is not a military superpower. Russia is still part of a small club of countries that can send human civilization back to the Stone Age.
    - vegai_ 5y ago
      This is true, yes.
- ShivShankaran 5y ago
  Incoming "lol Russian bot troll" comments for both of us followed by ban. For what its worth the West is pushing Zelensky to fight. The US doesnt care about Ukraine or Russia. They just want to sell their weapons.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > He flirted irresponsibly with NATO and now his country is at war with a military superpower. Putin's actions in Ukraine will encourage other nations to join NATO. Sweden and Finland are considering joining now: https://time.com/6158727/finland-sweden-wrestle-with-the-benefits-joining-nato/ https://time.com/6158727/finland-sweden-wrestle-with-the-ben... https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/03/04/nato-brings-finland-sweden-on-board-for-all-ukraine-conflict-discussions/ https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/03/04/nato-br... https://www.npr.org/2022/03/03/1084112625/neutral-finland-sweden-warm-to-idea-of-nato-membership https://www.npr.org/2022/03/03/1084112625/neutral-finland-sw... All Putin will achieve is the isolation of Russia. And that isolation will put Russia in China's pocket.
HstryrsrBttn 5y ago
ShivShankaran 5y ago
No, this has aged well. If anything western narratives have changed to paint him as a hero. Putin is a megalomaniac corrupt dictator. There is no point fighting him. Zelensky could concede the four points and end the war but he chose to force all men to fight for him. Either he is power hungry or US is forcing him to cling on to his title. Today he suspended all left and socialist parties including the party that got the second highest votes https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine-suspend-11-pro-russia-parties https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine... Also keep in mind that Medvedchuk got more votes than him but Zelensky had him arrested. Same feces as Russia just a different orifice. BBC article in 2014 on rise of neo-nazism in Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY Human Rights Watch on Ukraine killing civilians https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets...
- artem247 5y ago
- decebalus1 5y ago
  Lots of new accounts with lots of opinions lately.. > Zelensky could concede the four points and end the war but he chose to force all men to fight for him. I mean a person getting raped can also stop the rape by convincing themselves that the act is consensual, right?
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > Putin is a megalomaniac corrupt dictator. There is no point fighting him. There's every point in fighting him. Capitulation and submission are never appealing propositions. > Zelensky could concede the four points and end the war but he chose to force all men to fight for him. Putin could end the war but he chose to send conscripts to fight for him.

February 21st. That aged about as well as most newspaper columnists' brayings.

oxff 5y ago

_0w8t 5y ago
Russia wanted to take Ukraine long before Zelensky or any NATO expansion or even Putin, see https://youtu.be/IavEOx3hUAk https://youtu.be/IavEOx3hUAk , an interview of Dzhokhar Dudaev, Chechen leader during the the war with Russia in 1994-1995.
sssc 5y ago
I would say that the fact that his country is at war with a super power is more likely to correlate with the psichotic personality of the leader of the super power than with him being a comedian. He has inspired loyalty and drive in his people which is all / as good as a general could do now
phs318u 5y ago
So you're suggesting that for a sovereign power to consider joining NATO is "flirting irresponsibly". Can I assume that you think it irresponsible because Ukraine borders Russia? If so, that ship sailed years ago. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are all NATO members (that happened under Putin's first stretch as president). If Russia wanted to maintain a NATO-free buffer around its borders, what lesson do you think attacking the country that isn't a NATO member sends to the others? Surely it's "let's join NATO before Putin sends in the tanks". I'll believe otherwise when Putin attacks Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia. I won't hold my breath.
- oxff 5y ago
  > So you're suggesting that for a sovereign power to consider joining NATO is "flirting irresponsibly". This was indeed quite irresponsible of Ukraine, as we can see: they are now at war with Russia without any real support from the side they were negotiating with (USA / NATO have not and will not deploy to protect Ukraine). The losses (ref. the refugee count, loss of territory) have already been deeply damaging to Ukraine and its future: they were already aging, female dominated population prior to this with very bad economy. I cannot call this behavior responsible in any interpretation; and if these are sovereign actors then the armed veto is legitimate tool in order to pursue national interests. > Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are all NATO members (that happened under Putin's first stretch as president). I think the total number of tanks Baltic states have is around 0; Russia has something like 12,000+. Ukraine has the second largest army in Europe after Russia. Russian govt. probably considers (at this point) it a mistake to not intervene in the Baltic NATO process though. > If Russia wanted to maintain a NATO-free buffer around its borders, what lesson do you think attacking the country that isn't a NATO member sends to the others? From the point of view of Russian strategical behavior & deterrence something had to change in the way Russian govt. behaves to stop the further expansion into Ukraine. Clearly, whatever calculus they used previously for strategical deterrence was not enough to stop the expansion (hence, the expansion towards Russia over time).
  - FrenchAmerican 5y ago
    This is pure Putin's propaganda.
  - vegai_ 5y ago
    There's a good point hidden in there, in the Yoda sense. Do or do not; there is no try. I.e. if you wanna join NATO, a lot more energy should be put into joining NATO and far less into talking about joining NATO. But perhaps in real, non-armchair politics, you cannot have one without the other.
    - oxff 5y ago
      I try to observe things from "30 thousand feet", the current climate in Western countries is hysterical, emotional and it clouds a lot of things. Mostly try to keep it to Thomas Schelling's teachings when analyzing a given situation (behavior & deterrence being the important keywords).
      - vegai_ 5y ago
        > the current climate in Western countries is hysterical, emotional and it clouds a lot of things. Sure, but in contrast, the earlier climate was complacent and submissive to all the evil things Putin did during his reign. We might be in the other end of the spectrum right now, but the other end wasn't a good position either.
vegai_ 5y ago
>He flirted irresponsibly with NATO Ukraine has been wanting to get into NATO since 2008, and really wanted to get into NATO since Russia illegally annexed Crimea in 2014. All this happened before Zelensky's presidency, which started in 2019. Also popular opinion has been pro-NATO since 2014, and Ukraine is a democracy. > and now his country is at war with a military superpower. Russia is not a military superpower.
- pbourke 5y ago
  > Russia is not a military superpower. Russia is still part of a small club of countries that can send human civilization back to the Stone Age.
  - vegai_ 5y ago
    This is true, yes.
ShivShankaran 5y ago
Incoming "lol Russian bot troll" comments for both of us followed by ban. For what its worth the West is pushing Zelensky to fight. The US doesnt care about Ukraine or Russia. They just want to sell their weapons.
clouddrover 5y ago
> He flirted irresponsibly with NATO and now his country is at war with a military superpower. Putin's actions in Ukraine will encourage other nations to join NATO. Sweden and Finland are considering joining now: https://time.com/6158727/finland-sweden-wrestle-with-the-benefits-joining-nato/ https://time.com/6158727/finland-sweden-wrestle-with-the-ben... https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/03/04/nato-brings-finland-sweden-on-board-for-all-ukraine-conflict-discussions/ https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/03/04/nato-br... https://www.npr.org/2022/03/03/1084112625/neutral-finland-sweden-warm-to-idea-of-nato-membership https://www.npr.org/2022/03/03/1084112625/neutral-finland-sw... All Putin will achieve is the isolation of Russia. And that isolation will put Russia in China's pocket.

HstryrsrBttn 5y ago

ShivShankaran 5y ago

No, this has aged well. If anything western narratives have changed to paint him as a hero. Putin is a megalomaniac corrupt dictator. There is no point fighting him. Zelensky could concede the four points and end the war but he chose to force all men to fight for him. Either he is power hungry or US is forcing him to cling on to his title. Today he suspended all left and socialist parties including the party that got the second highest votes https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine-suspend-11-pro-russia-parties https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/3/21/why-did-ukraine... Also keep in mind that Medvedchuk got more votes than him but Zelensky had him arrested. Same feces as Russia just a different orifice. BBC article in 2014 on rise of neo-nazism in Ukraine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY Human Rights Watch on Ukraine killing civilians https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets-killing-civilians https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/ukraine-unguided-rockets...

artem247 5y ago
decebalus1 5y ago
Lots of new accounts with lots of opinions lately.. > Zelensky could concede the four points and end the war but he chose to force all men to fight for him. I mean a person getting raped can also stop the rape by convincing themselves that the act is consensual, right?
clouddrover 5y ago
> Putin is a megalomaniac corrupt dictator. There is no point fighting him. There's every point in fighting him. Capitulation and submission are never appealing propositions. > Zelensky could concede the four points and end the war but he chose to force all men to fight for him. Putin could end the war but he chose to send conscripts to fight for him.