3 ms·

I’m a scientist from Kenya–not the ‘third world’ or a ‘developing country’

43 points by sohkamyung 5y ago

WaxedChewbacca 5y ago
rosndo 5y ago
The top levels of Kenyan government are not doing a good job of branding the country as anything but “developing”. Just see this serious debate about Witchcraft by their law reform commission https://www.klrc.go.ke/index.php/klrc-blog/518-justification-for-review-of-witchcraft-act-cap-67 https://www.klrc.go.ke/index.php/klrc-blog/518-justification... It’s unfortunate, but I’m not convinced that being a “Kenyan scientist” is better than being a “scientist from a developing country”. Personal preferences, of course. > “Third world”—as if to label my people at the bottom of the world’s pecking order? “Third world” also includes countries like Finland and Sweden. Also, it’s hardly untrue to suggest that Kenyan people are currently near the bottom of the world’s pecking order. This isn’t a criticism of them, just an indisputable fact. > I expressed my discomfort with the standard terms and proposed as an alternative “areas with limited resources.” This kind of word games don’t seem beneficial. It’s like calling a blind person “unsighted”. It’s necessary to acknowledge the story behind “developing countries”, it’s simply an euphemism for “poor”. Who does replacing “developing countries” with yet another euphemism benefit?
- evocatus 5y ago
  Are you seriously adopting the position that "third world" is a common moniker for Finland and Sweden?
  - p_l 5y ago
    In the original sense of the word, yes. Did it drift due to constant depiction of majority of unaligned countries as poor slums? Yes. Does it mean that I can't troll people using it this way by using the original meaning? No.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    It was, of course those countries very much picked a side decades ago. OTOH I’m not sure why replacing “third world” with a different euphemism for “poor” would be productive.
- tsol 5y ago
  >Just see this serious debate about Witchcraft by their law reform commission https://www.klrc.go.ke/index.php/klrc-blog/518-justification https://www.klrc.go.ke/index.php/klrc-blog/518-justification... I mean a common narrative in America is that one political party is taking part in a child trafficking cult to extract Adenochrome from children and inject it into themselves to keep from aging, and politicians are feeding into that. Doesn't seem that strange that the government might want to address the strange myths that occur in their country. The fact that our government doesn't acknowledge these strange conspiracy theories that are growing in influence, might not actually make us superior.
  - nailer 5y ago
    > I mean a common narrative in America is that one political party is taking part in a child trafficking cult to extract Adenochrome from children and inject it into themselves to keep from aging That’s not very common.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      Indeed, it’s a niche opinion held only by truly deranged people. In Kenya belief in and fear of witchcraft is super common at all levels of society. And not in the same way someone might believe in a christian god in the west, for Kenyans witchcraft is something far more tangible, something actually present in the physical world.
    - kbelder 5y ago
      The rather insane belief that it is a common belief is more common.
evocatus 5y ago
- krapp 5y ago
  >Ah yes, but how are we supposed to solve racism unless we create new language to acknowledge the myriad ways in which you are oppressed and inferior to the whites? What are you on about? None of this language is new, and race isn't even mentioned once in the article.
hyperman1 5y ago
My own understanding of the 3d world idea evolved enormously as I grew older. Started as 3d world=poor. Then I found out there was a 1st and 2nd world, and 3th was basically everything else. Then there came an additional, cynical connotation of not worth the bother for USA or Russia to turn that country into a vazal state. Maybe they fight some proxy wars or send some 'help'. But now? Russia's influence is a shadow of it's past. But the USA influence is also shrinking. Look at the whole Ukraine thing. The 3rd world is not condemning Russia very loud, and even in the 1st world a lot of people look at China as a relevant player. The fact that Russia is military having trouble in Ukraine, and the USA did not follow trough on Afganistan suggest a new world order: The whole 1/2/3th world thing is becoming a historical cold war relic, and 3d world might just become a group of neutral players in the big power struggles of the world.
- rosndo 5y ago
  > 3d world might just become a group of neutral players in the big power struggles of the world. To be “neutral” is to remain irrelevant. It comes at tremendous cost, as “neutral” countries will suffer the severe economic consequences of avoiding alliances which provide access to free trade and other incentives. And if these countries decide to build their own alliances with each other, they will no longer be neutral.
- rajin444 5y ago
  The first world countries still try to fight “civilized” wars - which can never be won. If the US (or Russia in Ukraine) truly wanted to win they could take off they gloves, so to speak. We’d likely see this if a first world home country was ever threatened.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
This is similar in spirit to this recent article about removing such terms from newspaper style guides and recommending not one 'modern' synonym but rather using a more specific word that is appropriate to the context. https://www.poynter.org/ethics-trust/2020/newsrooms-updates-to-style-guide-entries-related-to-race-are-heartening-but-far-from-comprehensive/ https://www.poynter.org/ethics-trust/2020/newsrooms-updates-... Actually story I saw here 9 days ago was to a slightly older article with a more click airy title on the same subject: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30661633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30661633 Specific entry for developing world: https://globalpressjournal.com/style-guide/?letter=d#term-developing-world-emerging-economy-global-south https://globalpressjournal.com/style-guide/?letter=d#term-de...
anm89 5y ago
I understand why this would feel frustrating to a highly educated Kenyan who may have an experience that are very different from a lot of the country and may feel like they aren't personally living a "third world" or "developing" experience. But let's look at the facts. The per capita GDP of Kenya was $1878 in 2020 according to the world bank. There are substantial and systemic differences about that society that filter into things like the education system, scientific capabilities, and many many more less tangible things that make the realities of that country night and day different than the countries which wouldn't receive those labels. The problem with euphamisms like "developing" is that they are designed to say that in a less offensive way but it quickly becomes commonly understood as "poor" so then you have to make up new words on ongoing basis to avoid offending anyone. But the truth is, I think that word is vare rarely used maliciously and it signifies something that is meaningfully different than the things which aren't labeled with that word. So I get why it would be frustrating to be labeled that way but it seems that that is because there are some real, and frustrating realities underlying that situation, not because there is a problem with the word.
- kadoban 5y ago
  That does not seem to be the author's main complaint. Speaking for myself, the terms are just too broad. Kenya is not the same place as Afghanistan, they have so little in common that having one term to bucket them feels more like the intent is just to represent "places we couldn't give two fucks about".

43 points by sohkamyung 5y ago

The top levels of Kenyan government are not doing a good job of branding the country as anything but “developing”. Just see this serious debate about Witchcraft by their law reform commission https://www.klrc.go.ke/index.php/klrc-blog/518-justification-for-review-of-witchcraft-act-cap-67 https://www.klrc.go.ke/index.php/klrc-blog/518-justification... It’s unfortunate, but I’m not convinced that being a “Kenyan scientist” is better than being a “scientist from a developing country”. Personal preferences, of course. > “Third world”—as if to label my people at the bottom of the world’s pecking order? “Third world” also includes countries like Finland and Sweden. Also, it’s hardly untrue to suggest that Kenyan people are currently near the bottom of the world’s pecking order. This isn’t a criticism of them, just an indisputable fact. > I expressed my discomfort with the standard terms and proposed as an alternative “areas with limited resources.” This kind of word games don’t seem beneficial. It’s like calling a blind person “unsighted”. It’s necessary to acknowledge the story behind “developing countries”, it’s simply an euphemism for “poor”. Who does replacing “developing countries” with yet another euphemism benefit?

evocatus 5y ago
Are you seriously adopting the position that "third world" is a common moniker for Finland and Sweden?
- p_l 5y ago
  In the original sense of the word, yes. Did it drift due to constant depiction of majority of unaligned countries as poor slums? Yes. Does it mean that I can't troll people using it this way by using the original meaning? No.
- rosndo 5y ago
  It was, of course those countries very much picked a side decades ago. OTOH I’m not sure why replacing “third world” with a different euphemism for “poor” would be productive.
tsol 5y ago
>Just see this serious debate about Witchcraft by their law reform commission https://www.klrc.go.ke/index.php/klrc-blog/518-justification https://www.klrc.go.ke/index.php/klrc-blog/518-justification... I mean a common narrative in America is that one political party is taking part in a child trafficking cult to extract Adenochrome from children and inject it into themselves to keep from aging, and politicians are feeding into that. Doesn't seem that strange that the government might want to address the strange myths that occur in their country. The fact that our government doesn't acknowledge these strange conspiracy theories that are growing in influence, might not actually make us superior.
- nailer 5y ago
  > I mean a common narrative in America is that one political party is taking part in a child trafficking cult to extract Adenochrome from children and inject it into themselves to keep from aging That’s not very common.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    Indeed, it’s a niche opinion held only by truly deranged people. In Kenya belief in and fear of witchcraft is super common at all levels of society. And not in the same way someone might believe in a christian god in the west, for Kenyans witchcraft is something far more tangible, something actually present in the physical world.
  - kbelder 5y ago
    The rather insane belief that it is a common belief is more common.

evocatus 5y ago

krapp 5y ago
>Ah yes, but how are we supposed to solve racism unless we create new language to acknowledge the myriad ways in which you are oppressed and inferior to the whites? What are you on about? None of this language is new, and race isn't even mentioned once in the article.

hyperman1 5y ago

My own understanding of the 3d world idea evolved enormously as I grew older. Started as 3d world=poor. Then I found out there was a 1st and 2nd world, and 3th was basically everything else. Then there came an additional, cynical connotation of not worth the bother for USA or Russia to turn that country into a vazal state. Maybe they fight some proxy wars or send some 'help'. But now? Russia's influence is a shadow of it's past. But the USA influence is also shrinking. Look at the whole Ukraine thing. The 3rd world is not condemning Russia very loud, and even in the 1st world a lot of people look at China as a relevant player. The fact that Russia is military having trouble in Ukraine, and the USA did not follow trough on Afganistan suggest a new world order: The whole 1/2/3th world thing is becoming a historical cold war relic, and 3d world might just become a group of neutral players in the big power struggles of the world.

rosndo 5y ago
> 3d world might just become a group of neutral players in the big power struggles of the world. To be “neutral” is to remain irrelevant. It comes at tremendous cost, as “neutral” countries will suffer the severe economic consequences of avoiding alliances which provide access to free trade and other incentives. And if these countries decide to build their own alliances with each other, they will no longer be neutral.
rajin444 5y ago
The first world countries still try to fight “civilized” wars - which can never be won. If the US (or Russia in Ukraine) truly wanted to win they could take off they gloves, so to speak. We’d likely see this if a first world home country was ever threatened.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

This is similar in spirit to this recent article about removing such terms from newspaper style guides and recommending not one 'modern' synonym but rather using a more specific word that is appropriate to the context. https://www.poynter.org/ethics-trust/2020/newsrooms-updates-to-style-guide-entries-related-to-race-are-heartening-but-far-from-comprehensive/ https://www.poynter.org/ethics-trust/2020/newsrooms-updates-... Actually story I saw here 9 days ago was to a slightly older article with a more click airy title on the same subject: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30661633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30661633 Specific entry for developing world: https://globalpressjournal.com/style-guide/?letter=d#term-developing-world-emerging-economy-global-south https://globalpressjournal.com/style-guide/?letter=d#term-de...

anm89 5y ago

I understand why this would feel frustrating to a highly educated Kenyan who may have an experience that are very different from a lot of the country and may feel like they aren't personally living a "third world" or "developing" experience. But let's look at the facts. The per capita GDP of Kenya was $1878 in 2020 according to the world bank. There are substantial and systemic differences about that society that filter into things like the education system, scientific capabilities, and many many more less tangible things that make the realities of that country night and day different than the countries which wouldn't receive those labels. The problem with euphamisms like "developing" is that they are designed to say that in a less offensive way but it quickly becomes commonly understood as "poor" so then you have to make up new words on ongoing basis to avoid offending anyone. But the truth is, I think that word is vare rarely used maliciously and it signifies something that is meaningfully different than the things which aren't labeled with that word. So I get why it would be frustrating to be labeled that way but it seems that that is because there are some real, and frustrating realities underlying that situation, not because there is a problem with the word.

kadoban 5y ago
That does not seem to be the author's main complaint. Speaking for myself, the terms are just too broad. Kenya is not the same place as Afghanistan, they have so little in common that having one term to bucket them feels more like the intent is just to represent "places we couldn't give two fucks about".