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Didn’t quite understand why this is news. The limiter idea is actually pretty novel. Twice in my life I fell behind on the electric bill, and it was shut off en

Didn’t quite understand why this is news. The limiter idea is actually pretty novel. Twice in my life I fell behind on the electric bill, and it was shut off entirely. Maybe I’m reading between the lines, but to write this news article focusing on the plight of a mother and her children - there’s clearly some agenda here. More subsidies or free electricity for certain people? I’m not arguing in favor or against this, but there’s clearly some intent.

worik 5y ago
The agenda is that families should not be left to starve and freeze because of flawed economic arrangements. I share that agenda. I expect everyone to share that agenda
- worik 5y ago
  > Load limiters allow for continued operation of a furnace, a few lights and small appliances (but only one at a time). If too much electricity is used at once, the limiter will trip — turning off the power all together, until the meter is reset physically by the client or remotely by the distribution company. Ok. Freeze or starve. A choice. There is no place in Hell bad enough for these utility companies.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    I agree. But how much would they be able to lower the heat and still be comfortable? (I don't mean wearing summer clothes inside) I really don't think it's a bad idea to have people lower their heat in energy crunch situations, and I'm not so sure many know how to do it. (the limiter installation/removal fee is 100% BS though)
    - beej71 5y ago
      My electric house heat is on or off. A thermostat runs it. I can't turn it to "half"; I can only make it run at full power less often.
      - ars 5y ago
        You have electric heat for the entire house? That's an unusual setup - most places with electric heat have a separate thermostat in each room. To do the whole house means you have air vents to the entire house, with a central electric heat source? I guess maybe that makes sense if you anyway have central A/C? I don't think that's common in Canada though.
        emaginniss 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
        ars 5y ago
        Most heat pumps these days are mini-splits, not ducted. And they have a separate unit in each room. Either with multiple compressors outside, or a single one that can ramp up/down.
        worik 5y ago
        Heat pumps are useless in hard frost. The one I own stops being useful at 3 degrees of frost, struggles before then
        CWuestefeld 5y ago
        As I wrote above, the only time I've seen mine falter was at 6F (last year's mega freeze in Austin). It occasionally gets to 13F-15F in the winter, and the heat pump works in this environment without having to resort to "aux heat". I'm sure it's become rather inefficient, but it does work.
        CWuestefeld 5y ago
        You're thinking of resistive electric heat, a baseboard-style system. But in many areas an electric heat pump is common. This is a forced-air system, and controlled by zoned thermostats just like traditional gas or oil heat. That said, such heat pumps actually have multiple states: * Cooling * Off * Heating * Emergency heat (aka Aux heat) That last one happens when the ambient temperature is so low that the heat pump can't scavenge enough heat, and needs to augment with resistive heat (which happens through the same forced air delivery). Thus, in extreme cold you may be using even more electricity than you normally would. I live near Austin. The only time I've seen the Aux Heat in use was during last year's February freeze, which at 6F was the lowest temperature ever recorded here. Even at the occasional 13F-15F temperatures, the heat pump still operates normally (albeit it at very long cycles).
  - ars 5y ago
    > There is no place in Hell bad enough for these utility companies. Someone has to pay the bill, what's your suggestion for these utility companies instead?
    - Teever 5y ago
      Enmax is a municipally owned corporation which means that this discussion is bigger than what you're talking about. This is about social policy and poverty.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - worik 5y ago
    - xxpor 5y ago
      What are my tax dollars for if not ensuring my neighbors don't freeze to death? We're not talking about real (in the economic sense) limits here. The vast majority of people pay their electric bills fully and on time. The majority of people who fall behind are genuinely in dire straights. I seriously couldn't care less if a few "undeserving" people get subsidized heat.
      - commandlinefan 5y ago
        > What are my tax dollars for if not ensuring my neighbors don't freeze to death? If you really feel that way, why not offer to pay their electric bills personally?
        dane-pgp 5y ago
        Because that would be a tax on empathy. We shouldn't be taxing socially positive traits like empathy, but instead taxing negative traits like greed. In lieu of a moral balance for weighing souls, I'll accept a tax on accumulated wealth instead.
        5y ago
  - gruez 5y ago
    >> Load limiters allow for continued operation of a furnace, a few lights and small appliances (but only one at a time). If too much electricity is used at once, the limiter will trip — turning off the power all together, until the meter is reset physically by the client or remotely by the distribution company. >Ok. Freeze or starve. A choice. It's unclear what they mean by "a few lights and small appliances", but a crock pot apparently only consumes 240W (according to an amazon listing). That's probably within the limit. The food won't be great, but you're also not going to starve to death. edit: Another commenter[1] has mentioned the limit is 15A, which works out to be 1800W. That seems plenty enough to operate a furnace, refrigerator, some lights, and some basic cooking appliances (eg. crock pot) all at the same time. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30758429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30758429
    - kwhitefoot 5y ago
      > a crock pot apparently only consumes 240W My 1970s Kenwood slow cooker (still in use, last used yesterday) is only a little more than half that on the high setting! > The food won't be great, What makes you think that? A stew done in the slow cooker tastes great.
    - nostrademons 5y ago
      1800W isn't bad at all. Electric kettle is 1kW, toaster oven is 1-1.5kW, microwaves are usually 600-1200W, fridge or deep freezer is about 200W when the compressor's going, gas furnace is about 500W, washing machine is 300-500W. About the only things you can't run on 1800W are clothes dryers, electric heaters, full-size electric ovens, and electric ranges. You do have to make sure you're not turning everything on at once, but with some care 1800W is enough for the vast majority of household tasks. The only times my house's energy draw exceeds 1800W is when the clothes dryer is running or when all the kitchen appliances are going at once.
      - derekp7 5y ago
        1800W is (grabs calculator) 43.2 KWH per day. Just checked my usage and it is less than 30 KWH per day. So that's not bad at all.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    You're talking about the same company that just paid off her outstanding balance out of their own pockets, right?
  - segmondy 5y ago
    I don't see how that's the choice. You are not going to freeze to death if you turn off your heat for an hour or two to cook.
    - Teever 5y ago
      Let's make her spin plates and juggle while she's cooking too, as punishment for failing to pay her utilities as a single mother of two.
      - gruez 5y ago
        Yeah let's make electricity free for everyone then! What's that, you don't want taxpayers to be subsidizing the electricity bills of people who can afford it and/or people who are wasting it? Okay, let's make it so you get a certain amount of electricity for free, and if you exceed that you get cut off unless you pay. Oh wait...
        NeutronStar 5y ago
        There's a difference between free for struggling families and free for commercial uses.
        giraffe_lady 5y ago
        The idea that someone getting something they don't need is a much worse outcome than someone going without something they do need is a specific idealogy, you can't just assume everyone subscribes to it. I'm willing to accept quite a lot of inefficiency and misuse of a system like this if it means that everyone has a warm home.
        Ekaros 5y ago
        I wonder how long these people would be happy to pay some bitcoin or crypto miners bills... After they have hidden their earnings...
        camgunz 5y ago
        No one's arguing for making unlimited electricity free for everyone; this is a straw man. What people are saying is that it seems reasonable to ensure residents of a cold place like Calgary have access to heating, lighting, cooked food, and laundry. It seems reasonable for the limit to be put there, but not lower? I think the article makes it pretty clear it's too low, or there's no credit system, or whatever.
  - paganel 5y ago
    At that point I would just move. I also get constant positive feedback from news like this regarding my reminders to my parents (they live in the Romanian countryside) that they should never install gas-heating in their house, that they should continue relying on wood-based stoves. Once you start relying on a third party (like the gas company) for your basic needs in this age and time then things risk getting real nasty real quick, especially if you don't have any potential counterbalancing measures (like protesting in the street, for example).
    - metal13 5y ago
      These folks don't have the money to pay their electricity bills. What makes you think they have the money to move?
    - gruez 5y ago
      >I also get constant positive feedback from news like this regarding my reminders to my parents (they live in the Romanian countryside) that they should never install gas-heating in their house, that they should continue relying on wood-based stoves. These limiters aren't being installed by an oppressive government/utility willy-nilly. They got installed because the customer couldn't pay the bills. I'm not sure how using a wood stove fixes this. If you don't have any money what are you going to do? Steal some firewood? Head to the local park at night and cut down some trees? At least with electricity, the utility is willing to give you some small amount even if you can't pay.
      - paganel 5y ago
        > These limiters aren't being installed by an oppressive government/utility willy-nilly. Didn't say anything about the government, directly. But here in Europe the increased gas prices are the result of government actions. Increased gas prices mean increased chances of not paying one's bills. > I'm not sure how using a wood stove fixes this It gives you more independence, a stove it's much more liberal with what it can accept as inputs. Compared to gas-heating, for example.
    - verve_rat 5y ago
  - slenk 5y ago
    It's better than freeze AND starve. You will live a lot longer without food than you will without heat in a northern winter
- throwawayffffas 5y ago
  While I understand the sentiment the previous default that still applies to most of the world is that when you fall behind your electricity payments it gets shut off. The limiter is a humanitarian middle ground, acknowledging that electricity is now a basic need.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    I think the point of this article is that this "humanitarian middle ground" is not really that humanitarian in practice.
- turtlebits 5y ago
  If you don't have money to pay, you can handle some compromises. - Have the family in a bedroom + space heater (I still do this, and did it for A/C during the heat wave). - Cook on a hot plate/induction or use a microwave. - Electric blankets
- slibhb 5y ago
  The idea that people can't pay their bills because of "flawed economic arrangements" is pure dogma. I don't think we should let people starve or freeze but people have to be acculturated to pay for what they use. A load limiter seems like a reasonable middle ground.
  - giraffe_lady 5y ago
    So people not being able to pay for heat is the economic arrangement working as intended? You don't think that's worse?
    - slibhb 5y ago
      People being unable to pay their bills may be due to "flawed economic arrangements," it may be due to an act of God, or it may be up to their own irresponsible behavior. Assuming it is only due to the first is dogmatic.
  - bitwize 5y ago
    What if they can't afford to pay for what they need to stay alive? Poverty is a social issue and must be fixed by social means. In the meantime, the more fortunate can protect the lives and human rights of the poor by redistributing their surplus.
    - slibhb 5y ago
      > In the meantime, the more fortunate can protect the lives and human rights of the poor by redistributing their surplus. Seems like that's exactly what's happening here... > "The Utilities Consumer Advocate works with any customers who do experience shut offs in the spring and summer to ensure that they do not go into the winter season without electricity or natural gas services," said the minister of natural gas and electricity's press secretary, Taylor Hides, in a statement.
yumraj 5y ago
> there’s clearly some agenda here I have to agree a little bit. Moreover, I'm also going to be a bit insensitive here as this particular person, as shown in the photo supposedly has 2 kids already, and is now on a maternity leave (as mentioned in the article) for the 3rd kid (assuming no twins), while she is unable to pay for utility. Should she be really having another kid while hoping for the state to help/bailout via subsidies? Where does personal responsibility fall into all of this?
- Justsignedup 5y ago
  Typically I find that people who argue for these very harsh penalties for being poor also argue against easy access to contraception / abortion. So not sure. But it is a valid argument, if you can barely afford to live, why make it even more expensive to live?
- giraffe_lady 5y ago
  It falls directly onto the necks of those children where it was always intended to go.
- johnny22 5y ago
  considering everybody is talking about the decline of births, shouldn't we be paying her more? I don't know if that's a serious question or not, but somebody's gotta square the difference.
BaseballPhysics 5y ago
> Didn’t quite understand why this is news. Because in Alberta the cost of electricity has essentially doubled in the past 4-6 months (my own cost of electricity went from about $70 a month to $130), and folks who were previously living on the edge are now being pushed over, hence the article noting that "community advocates [are] worried the number of Calgarians facing this scenario will increase, and many don't know what a load limiter is." Local news stories require understanding the local context.

worik 5y ago

The agenda is that families should not be left to starve and freeze because of flawed economic arrangements. I share that agenda. I expect everyone to share that agenda

worik 5y ago
> Load limiters allow for continued operation of a furnace, a few lights and small appliances (but only one at a time). If too much electricity is used at once, the limiter will trip — turning off the power all together, until the meter is reset physically by the client or remotely by the distribution company. Ok. Freeze or starve. A choice. There is no place in Hell bad enough for these utility companies.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  I agree. But how much would they be able to lower the heat and still be comfortable? (I don't mean wearing summer clothes inside) I really don't think it's a bad idea to have people lower their heat in energy crunch situations, and I'm not so sure many know how to do it. (the limiter installation/removal fee is 100% BS though)
  - beej71 5y ago
    My electric house heat is on or off. A thermostat runs it. I can't turn it to "half"; I can only make it run at full power less often.
    - ars 5y ago
      You have electric heat for the entire house? That's an unusual setup - most places with electric heat have a separate thermostat in each room. To do the whole house means you have air vents to the entire house, with a central electric heat source? I guess maybe that makes sense if you anyway have central A/C? I don't think that's common in Canada though.
      - emaginniss 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
        ars 5y ago
        Most heat pumps these days are mini-splits, not ducted. And they have a separate unit in each room. Either with multiple compressors outside, or a single one that can ramp up/down.
        worik 5y ago
        Heat pumps are useless in hard frost. The one I own stops being useful at 3 degrees of frost, struggles before then
        CWuestefeld 5y ago
        As I wrote above, the only time I've seen mine falter was at 6F (last year's mega freeze in Austin). It occasionally gets to 13F-15F in the winter, and the heat pump works in this environment without having to resort to "aux heat". I'm sure it's become rather inefficient, but it does work.
      - CWuestefeld 5y ago
        You're thinking of resistive electric heat, a baseboard-style system. But in many areas an electric heat pump is common. This is a forced-air system, and controlled by zoned thermostats just like traditional gas or oil heat. That said, such heat pumps actually have multiple states: * Cooling * Off * Heating * Emergency heat (aka Aux heat) That last one happens when the ambient temperature is so low that the heat pump can't scavenge enough heat, and needs to augment with resistive heat (which happens through the same forced air delivery). Thus, in extreme cold you may be using even more electricity than you normally would. I live near Austin. The only time I've seen the Aux Heat in use was during last year's February freeze, which at 6F was the lowest temperature ever recorded here. Even at the occasional 13F-15F temperatures, the heat pump still operates normally (albeit it at very long cycles).
- ars 5y ago
  > There is no place in Hell bad enough for these utility companies. Someone has to pay the bill, what's your suggestion for these utility companies instead?
  - Teever 5y ago
    Enmax is a municipally owned corporation which means that this discussion is bigger than what you're talking about. This is about social policy and poverty.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - worik 5y ago
  - xxpor 5y ago
    What are my tax dollars for if not ensuring my neighbors don't freeze to death? We're not talking about real (in the economic sense) limits here. The vast majority of people pay their electric bills fully and on time. The majority of people who fall behind are genuinely in dire straights. I seriously couldn't care less if a few "undeserving" people get subsidized heat.
    - commandlinefan 5y ago
      > What are my tax dollars for if not ensuring my neighbors don't freeze to death? If you really feel that way, why not offer to pay their electric bills personally?
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        Because that would be a tax on empathy. We shouldn't be taxing socially positive traits like empathy, but instead taxing negative traits like greed. In lieu of a moral balance for weighing souls, I'll accept a tax on accumulated wealth instead.
      - 5y ago
- gruez 5y ago
  >> Load limiters allow for continued operation of a furnace, a few lights and small appliances (but only one at a time). If too much electricity is used at once, the limiter will trip — turning off the power all together, until the meter is reset physically by the client or remotely by the distribution company. >Ok. Freeze or starve. A choice. It's unclear what they mean by "a few lights and small appliances", but a crock pot apparently only consumes 240W (according to an amazon listing). That's probably within the limit. The food won't be great, but you're also not going to starve to death. edit: Another commenter[1] has mentioned the limit is 15A, which works out to be 1800W. That seems plenty enough to operate a furnace, refrigerator, some lights, and some basic cooking appliances (eg. crock pot) all at the same time. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30758429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30758429
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    > a crock pot apparently only consumes 240W My 1970s Kenwood slow cooker (still in use, last used yesterday) is only a little more than half that on the high setting! > The food won't be great, What makes you think that? A stew done in the slow cooker tastes great.
  - nostrademons 5y ago
    1800W isn't bad at all. Electric kettle is 1kW, toaster oven is 1-1.5kW, microwaves are usually 600-1200W, fridge or deep freezer is about 200W when the compressor's going, gas furnace is about 500W, washing machine is 300-500W. About the only things you can't run on 1800W are clothes dryers, electric heaters, full-size electric ovens, and electric ranges. You do have to make sure you're not turning everything on at once, but with some care 1800W is enough for the vast majority of household tasks. The only times my house's energy draw exceeds 1800W is when the clothes dryer is running or when all the kitchen appliances are going at once.
    - derekp7 5y ago
      1800W is (grabs calculator) 43.2 KWH per day. Just checked my usage and it is less than 30 KWH per day. So that's not bad at all.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  You're talking about the same company that just paid off her outstanding balance out of their own pockets, right?
- segmondy 5y ago
  I don't see how that's the choice. You are not going to freeze to death if you turn off your heat for an hour or two to cook.
  - Teever 5y ago
    Let's make her spin plates and juggle while she's cooking too, as punishment for failing to pay her utilities as a single mother of two.
    - gruez 5y ago
      Yeah let's make electricity free for everyone then! What's that, you don't want taxpayers to be subsidizing the electricity bills of people who can afford it and/or people who are wasting it? Okay, let's make it so you get a certain amount of electricity for free, and if you exceed that you get cut off unless you pay. Oh wait...
      - NeutronStar 5y ago
        There's a difference between free for struggling families and free for commercial uses.
      - giraffe_lady 5y ago
        The idea that someone getting something they don't need is a much worse outcome than someone going without something they do need is a specific idealogy, you can't just assume everyone subscribes to it. I'm willing to accept quite a lot of inefficiency and misuse of a system like this if it means that everyone has a warm home.
      - Ekaros 5y ago
        I wonder how long these people would be happy to pay some bitcoin or crypto miners bills... After they have hidden their earnings...
      - camgunz 5y ago
        No one's arguing for making unlimited electricity free for everyone; this is a straw man. What people are saying is that it seems reasonable to ensure residents of a cold place like Calgary have access to heating, lighting, cooked food, and laundry. It seems reasonable for the limit to be put there, but not lower? I think the article makes it pretty clear it's too low, or there's no credit system, or whatever.
- paganel 5y ago
  At that point I would just move. I also get constant positive feedback from news like this regarding my reminders to my parents (they live in the Romanian countryside) that they should never install gas-heating in their house, that they should continue relying on wood-based stoves. Once you start relying on a third party (like the gas company) for your basic needs in this age and time then things risk getting real nasty real quick, especially if you don't have any potential counterbalancing measures (like protesting in the street, for example).
  - metal13 5y ago
    These folks don't have the money to pay their electricity bills. What makes you think they have the money to move?
  - gruez 5y ago
    >I also get constant positive feedback from news like this regarding my reminders to my parents (they live in the Romanian countryside) that they should never install gas-heating in their house, that they should continue relying on wood-based stoves. These limiters aren't being installed by an oppressive government/utility willy-nilly. They got installed because the customer couldn't pay the bills. I'm not sure how using a wood stove fixes this. If you don't have any money what are you going to do? Steal some firewood? Head to the local park at night and cut down some trees? At least with electricity, the utility is willing to give you some small amount even if you can't pay.
    - paganel 5y ago
      > These limiters aren't being installed by an oppressive government/utility willy-nilly. Didn't say anything about the government, directly. But here in Europe the increased gas prices are the result of government actions. Increased gas prices mean increased chances of not paying one's bills. > I'm not sure how using a wood stove fixes this It gives you more independence, a stove it's much more liberal with what it can accept as inputs. Compared to gas-heating, for example.
  - verve_rat 5y ago
- slenk 5y ago
  It's better than freeze AND starve. You will live a lot longer without food than you will without heat in a northern winter
throwawayffffas 5y ago
While I understand the sentiment the previous default that still applies to most of the world is that when you fall behind your electricity payments it gets shut off. The limiter is a humanitarian middle ground, acknowledging that electricity is now a basic need.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  I think the point of this article is that this "humanitarian middle ground" is not really that humanitarian in practice.
turtlebits 5y ago
If you don't have money to pay, you can handle some compromises. - Have the family in a bedroom + space heater (I still do this, and did it for A/C during the heat wave). - Cook on a hot plate/induction or use a microwave. - Electric blankets
slibhb 5y ago
The idea that people can't pay their bills because of "flawed economic arrangements" is pure dogma. I don't think we should let people starve or freeze but people have to be acculturated to pay for what they use. A load limiter seems like a reasonable middle ground.
- giraffe_lady 5y ago
  So people not being able to pay for heat is the economic arrangement working as intended? You don't think that's worse?
  - slibhb 5y ago
    People being unable to pay their bills may be due to "flawed economic arrangements," it may be due to an act of God, or it may be up to their own irresponsible behavior. Assuming it is only due to the first is dogmatic.
- bitwize 5y ago
  What if they can't afford to pay for what they need to stay alive? Poverty is a social issue and must be fixed by social means. In the meantime, the more fortunate can protect the lives and human rights of the poor by redistributing their surplus.
  - slibhb 5y ago
    > In the meantime, the more fortunate can protect the lives and human rights of the poor by redistributing their surplus. Seems like that's exactly what's happening here... > "The Utilities Consumer Advocate works with any customers who do experience shut offs in the spring and summer to ensure that they do not go into the winter season without electricity or natural gas services," said the minister of natural gas and electricity's press secretary, Taylor Hides, in a statement.

yumraj 5y ago

> there’s clearly some agenda here I have to agree a little bit. Moreover, I'm also going to be a bit insensitive here as this particular person, as shown in the photo supposedly has 2 kids already, and is now on a maternity leave (as mentioned in the article) for the 3rd kid (assuming no twins), while she is unable to pay for utility. Should she be really having another kid while hoping for the state to help/bailout via subsidies? Where does personal responsibility fall into all of this?

Justsignedup 5y ago
Typically I find that people who argue for these very harsh penalties for being poor also argue against easy access to contraception / abortion. So not sure. But it is a valid argument, if you can barely afford to live, why make it even more expensive to live?
giraffe_lady 5y ago
It falls directly onto the necks of those children where it was always intended to go.
johnny22 5y ago
considering everybody is talking about the decline of births, shouldn't we be paying her more? I don't know if that's a serious question or not, but somebody's gotta square the difference.

BaseballPhysics 5y ago

> Didn’t quite understand why this is news. Because in Alberta the cost of electricity has essentially doubled in the past 4-6 months (my own cost of electricity went from about $70 a month to $130), and folks who were previously living on the edge are now being pushed over, hence the article noting that "community advocates [are] worried the number of Calgarians facing this scenario will increase, and many don't know what a load limiter is." Local news stories require understanding the local context.