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>At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end And it will pale in co

by camdat 5y ago

>At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end And it will pale in comparison to the 300 thousand civilians killed in the US intervention in Afghanistan alone. At least Russia will likely succeed in it's military objectives.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago
Not that long ago, I was under the impression that americans knew that they were the "bad guys" in all of those wars, but stood quiet, because they gained cheap oil and other benefits from most of them. I also got that sentiment from eg. the french, when their governments did something bad in any of their (former) colonies. There were even movies/documentaries (Michael Moore comes to mind), or even historic conflicts (vietnam and the Hippie culture around it), showing the US doing bad stuff around the world. And now? It makes me sad, that so many american people actually consider themselves the "good guys" for destroying random countries and killing people there. Like they did nothing bad, when they bombed peoples houses, occupied their countries, stole their oil, etc.
adventured 5y ago
The US didn't kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. You're conflating two entirely different things. You're pretending the US shot, bombed and killed all those civilians, when in fact that was an Iraqi-on-Iraqi sectarian civil war that produced such high civilian deaths, a civil war which the US spent enormous resources trying to stop. Russia is directly, intentionlly killing the civilians in question in Ukraine. They're doing it on purpose, aiming for the civilians, to terrorize them into submission (and Russia has a very long history of this form of intentional terror-war against civilian populations in the name of conquest). Russia's genocide of Ukrainian civilians isn't a mistake of aiming, it's not an accident of war, it's not a whoops, they're trying to kill them and starve them (see what they're doing to Mariupol at present). The difference between the two situations is exceptionally obvious and morally clear.
- randomsearch 5y ago
  Additional stats: the US and allies directly killed ~ 13 000 civilians during the occupation of Iraq. It's likely the Russians have exceeded that number in Mariupol alone in just a few weeks. The difference in these numbers reflects that Russia is deliberately targeting civilians. I condemn the occupation of Iraq, but agree it is exceptionally obvious that the two situations are in no way equivalent.
  - camdat 5y ago
    >It's likely the Russians have exceeded that number in Mariupol alone in just a few weeks. Source this.
    - randomsearch 5y ago
      Can’t grab a link right now but that’s from the Mariupol mayor’s office and reported in The Economist this week. 4000 dead certified at the morgue but 20000 is mayor’s estimate. Doesn’t seem unreasonable an estimate given the backlog and reports of corpses in the street yet to be collected, along with missing persons from bomb shelters etc
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  US bombed and killed many civilians in bombing of yugoslavia in 1999... even hit a passenger train and then had to speed up the footage to make it seem like an accident - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing (also a bus, tv station, many more bridges, tobacco factory, a group of escaping refugees, etc.) This is urban warfare... ukrainian army hides in civilian buildings, shoot down at russian soldiers and tanks, tanks shoot back, and the damage a tank does is what you then see on tv. There were (now removed) videos on youtube, of ukrainian people trying to get the ukranian army out of their apartment building just because of that. But looking at history, when US kills civilians, they arrest the whistleblower and threathen the webpage owner - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstri... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning

by camdat 5y ago

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

Not that long ago, I was under the impression that americans knew that they were the "bad guys" in all of those wars, but stood quiet, because they gained cheap oil and other benefits from most of them. I also got that sentiment from eg. the french, when their governments did something bad in any of their (former) colonies. There were even movies/documentaries (Michael Moore comes to mind), or even historic conflicts (vietnam and the Hippie culture around it), showing the US doing bad stuff around the world. And now? It makes me sad, that so many american people actually consider themselves the "good guys" for destroying random countries and killing people there. Like they did nothing bad, when they bombed peoples houses, occupied their countries, stole their oil, etc.

adventured 5y ago

The US didn't kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. You're conflating two entirely different things. You're pretending the US shot, bombed and killed all those civilians, when in fact that was an Iraqi-on-Iraqi sectarian civil war that produced such high civilian deaths, a civil war which the US spent enormous resources trying to stop. Russia is directly, intentionlly killing the civilians in question in Ukraine. They're doing it on purpose, aiming for the civilians, to terrorize them into submission (and Russia has a very long history of this form of intentional terror-war against civilian populations in the name of conquest). Russia's genocide of Ukrainian civilians isn't a mistake of aiming, it's not an accident of war, it's not a whoops, they're trying to kill them and starve them (see what they're doing to Mariupol at present). The difference between the two situations is exceptionally obvious and morally clear.

randomsearch 5y ago
Additional stats: the US and allies directly killed ~ 13 000 civilians during the occupation of Iraq. It's likely the Russians have exceeded that number in Mariupol alone in just a few weeks. The difference in these numbers reflects that Russia is deliberately targeting civilians. I condemn the occupation of Iraq, but agree it is exceptionally obvious that the two situations are in no way equivalent.
- camdat 5y ago
  >It's likely the Russians have exceeded that number in Mariupol alone in just a few weeks. Source this.
  - randomsearch 5y ago
    Can’t grab a link right now but that’s from the Mariupol mayor’s office and reported in The Economist this week. 4000 dead certified at the morgue but 20000 is mayor’s estimate. Doesn’t seem unreasonable an estimate given the backlog and reports of corpses in the street yet to be collected, along with missing persons from bomb shelters etc
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
US bombed and killed many civilians in bombing of yugoslavia in 1999... even hit a passenger train and then had to speed up the footage to make it seem like an accident - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdelica_train_bombing (also a bus, tv station, many more bridges, tobacco factory, a group of escaping refugees, etc.) This is urban warfare... ukrainian army hides in civilian buildings, shoot down at russian soldiers and tanks, tanks shoot back, and the damage a tank does is what you then see on tv. There were (now removed) videos on youtube, of ukrainian people trying to get the ukranian army out of their apartment building just because of that. But looking at history, when US kills civilians, they arrest the whistleblower and threathen the webpage owner - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstrike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007,_Baghdad_airstri... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning