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I find these kind of beliefs baffling, from anywhere in the world. It would be trivial to prove any of these work, and yet no one will. Surely they know it does

by nkrisc 5y ago

I find these kind of beliefs baffling, from anywhere in the world. It would be trivial to prove any of these work, and yet no one will. Surely they know it doesn’t actually work?

dotancohen 5y ago
> Surely they know it doesn’t actually work? Do you think that carrots make your eyesight better? Every culture has its misconceptions.
- the_af 5y ago
  Yes, but some misconceptions are easier to disprove. And some misconceptions are genuine (in the sense that people genuinely believe them) and others are mere scams that even their alleged "believers" don't believe. I know at least one source for the misconception that carrots make your eyesight better: a WW2 lie to hide the fact of the existence of either radar or encryption breaking (I forget which). But someone who actually believed carrots make your eyesight better might try to test it for themselves. They may even keep on deluding themselves after doing an experiment (hey, the placebo effect is strong). What about someone who believes a juju amulet makes them impervious to stabbing. Would they be willing to try it? You offer to stab at their heart with all your might, and if they survive you give them money. Do they accept your offer? If they don't -- and they never do -- what is happening is that they suspect it doesn't really work. It reminds me of Jack London's story, "Lost Face": https://americanliterature.com/author/jack-london/short-story/lost-face https://americanliterature.com/author/jack-london/short-stor...
  - not1ofU 5y ago
    It was Radar as I understand
- nkrisc 5y ago
  I'm not saying I'm surprised they believe something that isn't true. We all do, myself included I'm certain. But some things would be trivial to test to see if it's true or not. I used to think carrots made your eyesight better, because that's what I was taught. I've since let go of that belief in light of new understanding and evidence. That is a claim that's harder to demonstrate, so it takes time to learn the truth of the matter. If was selling you a charm that made you bulletproof, it would be trivial to demonstrate. I'd wear it and you'd shoot me and I would be unharmed. But I'd wager money that no vendor selling such a charm would ever agree to such a simple demonstration of their wares.
lazypenguin 5y ago
Believing it works is the whole experience. Most people never change socio-economic status and objectively nearly all startups fail yet here we are…
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
daemoens 5y ago
"Of course juju works, he doesn't know what he is saying," said one trader who lingered with a scowl on his face. In his pocket was a black amulet, a small leather pouch containing supposedly magic charms, that he said was for protection. However, he was not interested in publicly demonstrating its powers, not even for $6,000. This man wouldn't prove his powers, even when he could only stand to gain from it. People act the exact same way everywhere when it comes to this type of belief.
- circlefavshape 5y ago
  He'd stand to gain money, but from the sound of the article he'd lose social standing, and it takes a lot of money to offset something like that
  - kazinator 5y ago
    There is no "would" here; he couldn't prove anything and the money is safe. But let's say we live in a magical universe in which juju is real and yet someone is foolish enough to offer a lot of money for a proof. How would the prover lose social standing? He proved wrong that obnoxious nay-sayer. He'd be a juju hero, with stars in his eyes. Or maybe not. If juju were real, he would also have been trampled by a throng of others trying similarly to get the easy money. What I suspect is that there might be an element in the juju mythology which stipulates that any wielder of juju power who tries to prove juju to nonbelievers will die.
    - circlefavshape 5y ago
      What I meant was he'd lose social standing by failing to prove something everyone in his social milieu thinks is obviously true. Big risk to take if you have any doubts at all, unless the potential payoff is v large Saw a documentary back in the 90s about similar stuff in India - a group of young "rationalists" going around debunking stuff. I wonder has it made any material difference in the last 30 years
      - 5y ago
_8j50 5y ago
Even you don't know that. It is so difficult for many to accept that there are things they just cannot know or do not know that they don't know. It is also apparently very difficult for some people to consider things from someone else's perspective. I don't mean people who are of your belief system only but also the people in the subject of the story also think like you "surely those secular westerners don't really believe everything suddenly decided to exist all on its own and that people are really well-bred apes?" My point is, a little humility and willingness to understand others goes a long way.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  its a little hard to be willing to understand people that murder and mutilate others in an attempt to gain material wealth.
  - prometheus76 5y ago
    Understanding them doesn't mean condoning what they do, or even sympathizing with it. It's obviously so real to them that they are willing to sacrifice the life of another human being in order to improve their own future. I agree that's reprehensible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to understand it.
    - wonderwonder 5y ago
      honestly, why? Would you or I understanding lead to some way to stop them doing it? I doubt it. Sometimes actions are egregious enough to stand on their own with no need for rationalization or understanding. They are simply wrong. Most peoples time would be best served simply condemning their actions and seeking to understand things that can benefit the world. With that said, its not hard to comprehend why they do it. People are a product of their environment and if they are raised believing in certain truths that shape their world view, they tend to hold onto those and ignore things that fly in the face of them. They pass those same truths on to their offspring.
      - 5y ago
prometheus76 5y ago
Just the thought of presenting some kind of physical evidence and that would somehow verify that it "works" or is "true" and would be accepted by everyone reveals your materialist worldview and is a key to understanding why these beliefs exist in pre-modern cultures around the world. The traditional world looks at the world as a hierarchy of being and a hierarchy of meaning. That's completely different than a materialist viewpoint of the world, but it explains why you see their beliefs as baffling and they see materialism as myopically ignorant.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  what does materialism have to do with facts? JUJU is not real. Also the article specifies that they are killing people for materialistic wants, they are trying to cast spells to get money.
  - singlow 5y ago
    This is a different use of the word materialism. You are reading it as the tendency to consider material possessions of high importance. The post is referring to a philosophical doctrine that nothing exists except for matter, its movements and its modifications. This is in contrast to belief systems that include things that are "supernatural" such as invisible beings, spirits, mystical energy forces, etc.
  - triactual 5y ago
    Previous comment means materialism as defined in philosophy. Not materialistic.
  - prometheus76 5y ago
    I don't mean materialism as in a love of money or material goods. I mean materialism as in believing that truth claims must be verified with empirical, physical evidence. People in traditional societies do not think physicality or empiricism is the primary way of determining what is true. These people are showing you that fear, desperation, and hope lead them to believing a narrative that requires them to take another human being's life in the hope of gaining some physical advantage for themselves. They are literally sacrificing another human being for the hope of improving their own future. Is what they are doing based on some empirical evidence? No. Are the effects of what they believe still real? Yes. Their hierarchy of ontology has a coherence of its own and allows their society to function, and is a very ancient structure. The concept of the "evil eye" (which is tightly related to these African practices) is a very old mechanism for managing wealth (and good or bad fortune) in communities for thousands of years. To come along and say "well, this is nonsense. Let's convince them they're wrong by using physical evidence to prove it!" seems pretty hubristic.
wonderwonder 5y ago
There is a whole industry that makes money from people believing that it works, an industry that has been entrenched for centuries. Its really not so different than modern western religions conceptually although much more violent. Western religion believes in miracles and the power of prayer and people donate hundreds of millions of dollars to buy churches or planes for pastors. How often do people in dire straights ask people to pray for them in the west? Its just something that becomes entrenched in a culture and is very difficult to remove.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  And I find the Western rituals and beliefs equally baffling.
whatshisface 5y ago
This reveals that basic sanity (basing your beliefs on what you observe) is learned and not innate. Your own ancestors likely believed things like that, and your descendants could believe some future equivalent of QAnon.
uhtred 5y ago
I imagine it's kind of like believing in the more extreme conspiracy theories (the dems are a bunch of satanic baby eaters) - deep down I reckon almost all "believers" know it's not true, but life is boring and these people are poor and have not much to look forward to, so why not jazz it up by believing in magic.
jerf 5y ago
Western society has a ton of these. The HN gestalt has a ton of these. But it's very hard to see your own equally silly beliefs.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  Yes, there's many in Western society as well. I'd get downvoted if I mentioned them, however. I'm sure there's also beliefs I hold that would fit this description as well, though I try to be as open-minded as possible and willing to let go beliefs that don't stand up to scrutiny. I've definitely changed my mind on many things over the years as I learn more. Some beliefs are hard to disprove. But some are trivial. But if someone wants to sell me a charm that makes them stab-proof, I'm not paying until I see it in action. You don't need to be a scientist to think of an experiment that determines if it works.
blast 5y ago
There's another possibility: perhaps it works, but in a way that is not trivial to prove. For example, maybe it depends on who's doing it. You or I would be unable to prove it, but we're not cat changers.
b112 5y ago
But if there is an unbeliever witnessing these rituals, usually it means they will fail. This is a common theme with all such rites.

by nkrisc 5y ago

I find these kind of beliefs baffling, from anywhere in the world. It would be trivial to prove any of these work, and yet no one will. Surely they know it doesn’t actually work?

dotancohen 5y ago

> Surely they know it doesn’t actually work? Do you think that carrots make your eyesight better? Every culture has its misconceptions.

the_af 5y ago
Yes, but some misconceptions are easier to disprove. And some misconceptions are genuine (in the sense that people genuinely believe them) and others are mere scams that even their alleged "believers" don't believe. I know at least one source for the misconception that carrots make your eyesight better: a WW2 lie to hide the fact of the existence of either radar or encryption breaking (I forget which). But someone who actually believed carrots make your eyesight better might try to test it for themselves. They may even keep on deluding themselves after doing an experiment (hey, the placebo effect is strong). What about someone who believes a juju amulet makes them impervious to stabbing. Would they be willing to try it? You offer to stab at their heart with all your might, and if they survive you give them money. Do they accept your offer? If they don't -- and they never do -- what is happening is that they suspect it doesn't really work. It reminds me of Jack London's story, "Lost Face": https://americanliterature.com/author/jack-london/short-story/lost-face https://americanliterature.com/author/jack-london/short-stor...
- not1ofU 5y ago
  It was Radar as I understand
nkrisc 5y ago
I'm not saying I'm surprised they believe something that isn't true. We all do, myself included I'm certain. But some things would be trivial to test to see if it's true or not. I used to think carrots made your eyesight better, because that's what I was taught. I've since let go of that belief in light of new understanding and evidence. That is a claim that's harder to demonstrate, so it takes time to learn the truth of the matter. If was selling you a charm that made you bulletproof, it would be trivial to demonstrate. I'd wear it and you'd shoot me and I would be unharmed. But I'd wager money that no vendor selling such a charm would ever agree to such a simple demonstration of their wares.

lazypenguin 5y ago

Believing it works is the whole experience. Most people never change socio-economic status and objectively nearly all startups fail yet here we are…

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

daemoens 5y ago

"Of course juju works, he doesn't know what he is saying," said one trader who lingered with a scowl on his face. In his pocket was a black amulet, a small leather pouch containing supposedly magic charms, that he said was for protection. However, he was not interested in publicly demonstrating its powers, not even for $6,000. This man wouldn't prove his powers, even when he could only stand to gain from it. People act the exact same way everywhere when it comes to this type of belief.

circlefavshape 5y ago
He'd stand to gain money, but from the sound of the article he'd lose social standing, and it takes a lot of money to offset something like that
- kazinator 5y ago
  There is no "would" here; he couldn't prove anything and the money is safe. But let's say we live in a magical universe in which juju is real and yet someone is foolish enough to offer a lot of money for a proof. How would the prover lose social standing? He proved wrong that obnoxious nay-sayer. He'd be a juju hero, with stars in his eyes. Or maybe not. If juju were real, he would also have been trampled by a throng of others trying similarly to get the easy money. What I suspect is that there might be an element in the juju mythology which stipulates that any wielder of juju power who tries to prove juju to nonbelievers will die.
  - circlefavshape 5y ago
    What I meant was he'd lose social standing by failing to prove something everyone in his social milieu thinks is obviously true. Big risk to take if you have any doubts at all, unless the potential payoff is v large Saw a documentary back in the 90s about similar stuff in India - a group of young "rationalists" going around debunking stuff. I wonder has it made any material difference in the last 30 years
    - 5y ago

_8j50 5y ago

Even you don't know that. It is so difficult for many to accept that there are things they just cannot know or do not know that they don't know. It is also apparently very difficult for some people to consider things from someone else's perspective. I don't mean people who are of your belief system only but also the people in the subject of the story also think like you "surely those secular westerners don't really believe everything suddenly decided to exist all on its own and that people are really well-bred apes?" My point is, a little humility and willingness to understand others goes a long way.

wonderwonder 5y ago
its a little hard to be willing to understand people that murder and mutilate others in an attempt to gain material wealth.
- prometheus76 5y ago
  Understanding them doesn't mean condoning what they do, or even sympathizing with it. It's obviously so real to them that they are willing to sacrifice the life of another human being in order to improve their own future. I agree that's reprehensible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to understand it.
  - wonderwonder 5y ago
    honestly, why? Would you or I understanding lead to some way to stop them doing it? I doubt it. Sometimes actions are egregious enough to stand on their own with no need for rationalization or understanding. They are simply wrong. Most peoples time would be best served simply condemning their actions and seeking to understand things that can benefit the world. With that said, its not hard to comprehend why they do it. People are a product of their environment and if they are raised believing in certain truths that shape their world view, they tend to hold onto those and ignore things that fly in the face of them. They pass those same truths on to their offspring.
    - 5y ago

prometheus76 5y ago

Just the thought of presenting some kind of physical evidence and that would somehow verify that it "works" or is "true" and would be accepted by everyone reveals your materialist worldview and is a key to understanding why these beliefs exist in pre-modern cultures around the world. The traditional world looks at the world as a hierarchy of being and a hierarchy of meaning. That's completely different than a materialist viewpoint of the world, but it explains why you see their beliefs as baffling and they see materialism as myopically ignorant.

wonderwonder 5y ago
what does materialism have to do with facts? JUJU is not real. Also the article specifies that they are killing people for materialistic wants, they are trying to cast spells to get money.
- singlow 5y ago
  This is a different use of the word materialism. You are reading it as the tendency to consider material possessions of high importance. The post is referring to a philosophical doctrine that nothing exists except for matter, its movements and its modifications. This is in contrast to belief systems that include things that are "supernatural" such as invisible beings, spirits, mystical energy forces, etc.
- triactual 5y ago
  Previous comment means materialism as defined in philosophy. Not materialistic.
- prometheus76 5y ago
  I don't mean materialism as in a love of money or material goods. I mean materialism as in believing that truth claims must be verified with empirical, physical evidence. People in traditional societies do not think physicality or empiricism is the primary way of determining what is true. These people are showing you that fear, desperation, and hope lead them to believing a narrative that requires them to take another human being's life in the hope of gaining some physical advantage for themselves. They are literally sacrificing another human being for the hope of improving their own future. Is what they are doing based on some empirical evidence? No. Are the effects of what they believe still real? Yes. Their hierarchy of ontology has a coherence of its own and allows their society to function, and is a very ancient structure. The concept of the "evil eye" (which is tightly related to these African practices) is a very old mechanism for managing wealth (and good or bad fortune) in communities for thousands of years. To come along and say "well, this is nonsense. Let's convince them they're wrong by using physical evidence to prove it!" seems pretty hubristic.

wonderwonder 5y ago

There is a whole industry that makes money from people believing that it works, an industry that has been entrenched for centuries. Its really not so different than modern western religions conceptually although much more violent. Western religion believes in miracles and the power of prayer and people donate hundreds of millions of dollars to buy churches or planes for pastors. How often do people in dire straights ask people to pray for them in the west? Its just something that becomes entrenched in a culture and is very difficult to remove.

nkrisc 5y ago
And I find the Western rituals and beliefs equally baffling.

whatshisface 5y ago

This reveals that basic sanity (basing your beliefs on what you observe) is learned and not innate. Your own ancestors likely believed things like that, and your descendants could believe some future equivalent of QAnon.

uhtred 5y ago

I imagine it's kind of like believing in the more extreme conspiracy theories (the dems are a bunch of satanic baby eaters) - deep down I reckon almost all "believers" know it's not true, but life is boring and these people are poor and have not much to look forward to, so why not jazz it up by believing in magic.

jerf 5y ago

Western society has a ton of these. The HN gestalt has a ton of these. But it's very hard to see your own equally silly beliefs.

nkrisc 5y ago
Yes, there's many in Western society as well. I'd get downvoted if I mentioned them, however. I'm sure there's also beliefs I hold that would fit this description as well, though I try to be as open-minded as possible and willing to let go beliefs that don't stand up to scrutiny. I've definitely changed my mind on many things over the years as I learn more. Some beliefs are hard to disprove. But some are trivial. But if someone wants to sell me a charm that makes them stab-proof, I'm not paying until I see it in action. You don't need to be a scientist to think of an experiment that determines if it works.

blast 5y ago

There's another possibility: perhaps it works, but in a way that is not trivial to prove. For example, maybe it depends on who's doing it. You or I would be unable to prove it, but we're not cat changers.

b112 5y ago

But if there is an unbeliever witnessing these rituals, usually it means they will fail. This is a common theme with all such rites.