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3,599,040,600 € wired by Germany to Russia since the invasion of Ukraine
- paganel 5y agoNice, means that some parts of the European economy are still not delusional about the whole sanctions thing.
- dmitrygr 5y agoOk, so what is the solution you propose? Quit russian gaz cold turkey, today? Let people in Berlin freeze to death tonight? (Temperatures are 0 degrees C at night)
- weberer 5y agoMaybe stop shutting down all their nuclear plants? That would be a good first step.
- elaus 5y agoIn fact the German government also had that idea but it's not that simple. For once, you can't power the gas heaters in millions of households with electrical power. Also the plant operators would have to buy more uranium to continue operation – from Russia. So that kind of defeats the purpose. Sure, in retrospect it would have been better to invest even more money into renewables ten or twenty years ago, and to keep the nuclear power plants running for just a few more years. But you can't change the past so that discussion really leads to nothing for the current situation.
- hackerfromthefu 5y agoWhy not buy the uranium from e.g. Australia?
- this_user 5y agoExcept it would achieve absolutely nothing, because the vast majority of German homes are heated with oil or gas, not electricity. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_image/public/paragraphs/images/sources-heating-homes-2019.png?itok=GRj-bwn1 https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g...
- f_allwein 5y agoThe German minister for economics is visiting Qatar and the Emirates to talk about gas deals. He probably hates it, because he is in the Green Party.
- zibzab 5y agoAlso: Germany and US are in talks to lift the sanctions on Iran.
- axiosgunnar 5y agoYes. (nobody will freeze to death btw) And the reasoning is as follows: The actually morally necessary step is to establish a no-fly zone above Ukraine, enforced by force with NATO fighter jets and anti-aircraft systems. People (possibly rightfully) consider that this could lead to a WW3, possibly escalating into the usage of nuclear weapons. So far so good. So the bargain we do is basically "Ukraine, we would do everything for you, except for starting WW3, which you hopefully understand!". Really? Everything? Then quit Russian gas cold turkey! No matter how bad it will be (possibly fairly bad, I admit), it will still be less than WW3, which we bargain is the only thing that we don't want, everything else we would do for Ukraine. --- Can anybody put this into better words??
- unethical_ban 5y agoAgreed. In other words, the EU and US are at war with Russia by all means except direct fire. In a war, citizens will have to make sacrifices. This may include painful economic sacrifices.
- cute_boi 5y agoAlso, making sacrifices may looks good for a few days, but it will sure cause massive problem after that. And, the funny thing is many people indulge in so much luxury, I don't think it is even possible.
- Zpalmtree 5y agoI didn't sign up for a war
- unethical_ban 5y agoTake that up with the Russian president.
- jacquesm 5y agoSix million Jews didn't sign up for a war either. Nor did everybody on the 'allied' side in WWII. Nor did millions of Koreans, Vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghanis and so on. Millions of Ukrainians did not sign up for it. In fact: almost nobody except for the aggressors signed up for a war and even there that's debatable, usually it's only a few people at the top and then 100's of enablers and thousands to millions of conscripts, who didn't sign up for it either. But that doesn't mean that you won't end up in a war. The question is how much control you will have over the location of the battlefield. That's why the Americans had this 'fight them over there rather than here' doctrine going. Which given their lack of proximity always was a bit of misdirection, but that doesn't mean that the idea by itself does not have merit.
- robert_foss 5y agoThere are gas reserves in Germany that would last for months (I've seen 6-9month figures). Maybe cut gas purchase rate to 50%. That would give >1 year of runway.
- cute_boi 5y agoAgain, a mass oversimplification of current issue. Gas reserves wont last that much because human hoards if they know government are starting to use reserves. And, when politician act, they should think about future too. And, can they purchase gas at 50%? Are those written in deals?
- formerly_proven 5y agoHow do you hoard gas?
- sendfoods 5y agoGas reserves are at a historical low right now. I'm not sure why this misinformation keeps popping up. https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/politik/erdgas-russland-ukraine-gasspeicher-100.html https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/politik/erdgas-ru...
- sdfgdf 5y ago
- tluyben2 5y agoIt is not comfortable but inside houses you do not freeze to death like that. Sleep in your clothes, buy an electric heater next to your bed, get an electric blanket etc. I slept for quite a long time like that in the Netherlands because my mates squat building had no heat. That was during one of the coldest winters where all canals in Amsterdam were frozen enough to skate on. So yeah, not comfortable but freezing to death is not happening if you just take some care.
- whitepoplar 5y agoWhat about frozen pipes?
- gruez 5y agoKeeping a house warmed to 5°C is probably enough to keep the pipes from bursting, but uses much less gas than heating it to 21°C
- lifewallet_dev 5y agoHow's the electric heater and the electric blanket work without power?
- aerostable_slug 5y agoThe issue isn't electricity, it's the fact that German municipal heat plants run on natural gas. Replacing all of that with electrically-powered equipment (centralized or at the endpoints) takes time.
- lostmsu 5y agoAlso, heating energy consumption is among the top usages. So switching from gas would require large increase in electric generating capacity.
- UberFly 5y ago"if you just take some care". Now there's the problem. Some people are unable to suddenly migrate to igloo living.
- yayr 5y agointerestingly, most split air conditioning units also have a heating function. Usually, they convert 1kwh of electric energy into 4-5 times the heat energy. Heating with electricity is therefore something quite achievable and sometimes even economical. At current German electricity prices of 0,33 EUR/kwh electricity heating is currently cheaper than gas heating (currently at 0,20 EUR/kwh for new contracts - was at 0,04 before the crisis).
- MandieD 5y agoMost people here don’t have air conditioners - more than used to, but most of the people I know here (Nürnberg area) don’t. I feel like we temporarily dodged a bullet by sheer laziness - before the pandemic, we were all set to do the whole Energiesanierung with full KfW incentives, which would have required chucking out our oil furnace (replaced right before we bought the house a few years ago) for, most likely, natural gas. Instead, we are still sitting on 1.5 years of normal or possibly 3 years of very carefully used heating oil supply. Now, like everyone, we’re looking into heat pumps. Because we are still sitting on a year or two of heating oil, I think we shouldn’t be competing against our gas-heated neighbors for that changeover this year or next.
- kavalg 5y agoIt is more like 2-3 times, depending on the outside temparature and degrading rapidly below e.g. -5C. Also, there is a noticeable effect on quality of life (noise, sometimes uncomfortable air currents).
- pfortuny 5y agoJust honesty and that the German government states this clearly at the same time that says “we are fully with Ukraine”. You can just say “we are with Ukraine up to the russian gas.” But that would just be true not beautiful.
- b112 5y agoTo be fair here, an extra blanket on the bed, a sweater during the day, and everyone could reduce rheir homes to 12C. Massive, massive savings in gas usage... maybe enough for all!
- daneel_w 5y agoBut that's outside, not inside. Even an old building with lesser insulation and double-pane windows will hold a higher temperature when inhabited. Humans radiate more than a few watts. It's not comfortable, it's definitely a health concern, but it's still not 0°C. An anecdote from earlier this winter when the electricity prices peaked in Europe: my girlfriend and I live on 79 sqm in a modern apartment building with triple-pane windows, and because of the landlord being a stingy d*ck we went through several weeks without any heating. During the worst 7-10 days we had a temperature of -4°C outside, but never below 15°C inside. When the temperature rose to 5°C we had about 18°C inside.
- hogrider 5y agoWhat you are saying is you prefer dead ukranians to be slightly uncomfortable in Germany.
- dathinab 5y agoYou know that 90+% of heating in Berlin is Gas based, probably 50%+ of stoves and ovens are gas based. More warm water is also gas based. Numbers are similar for many parts of eastern Germany. For western Germany the a slightly less, but still very high. Gas Germany imports is also re-exported to other countries. Some financially much worse off. You are literally asking Germany to derive a non-small amount of their financially weaker of people of heating, cooking and warm water. And this would not just affect Germany but other EU countries too, destabilizing all of the EU. At the same time it doesn't necessary stop the war, and might even escalate it even. Also many of the alternative sources we could buy gas from don't have the infrastructure to ship it to us fast enough (yet). Worse some of the alternative sources are states like Qatar, which are from a democratic, ethical and cultural point of view worse then Russia, they are just spacial further away... The main objective of the EU is to protect it's citizens and implicitly secondarily democracy. Switching of Russian gas _now_ would fail both. Leading to internally instability we can't afford which would be a perfect presence for the word wide re-emerging fascism. Now that's how it's now, a lot of thinks are already underway to change this. But changes take time.
- agapon 5y agoPeople in Mariupol, Kharkiv and Okhtyrka haven't frozen to death. They have it much harder than Germans would have.
- JamalKush 5y agoHorrible horrible colour scheme, burned my eyes
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- secondcoming 5y ago
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- FlorianRappl 5y agoTotally. I was about to post the same. Just looking at it was "fine" (not terrible, not great), but once I went back to HN I felt a flash like a sudden relief on my eyes. The pain was physical...
- jaynetics 5y agoI'm back at HN for 1 minute now and still see things with a blue tint. I guess these modern OLED are not being user-tested with content like this.
- kitkat_new 5y agoit doesn't hurt mine, though I find the design quite unvonventional
- layer8 5y agoThey should use a font with fixed digit widths. Also, the thread title needs updating. ;)
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- macspoofing 5y agoIf you double-down on renewables, then you double-down on natural gas. Germany decided to close down their nuclear and coal generation, so the only thing that is left is natural gas for base load (and to augment renewable intermittency problems).
- wffurr 5y agoStorage, transmission lines, and over provisioning are also alternatives. Still blows my mind that Germany and other countries are closing nuclear facilities though.
- chmod775 5y ago> Still blows my mind that Germany and other countries are closing nuclear facilities though. That's kind of a misconception. Germany isn't (and wasn't) closing any nuclear plants that weren't about to closed anyways - it was all old plants. What Germany did was not bringing online new ones and instead choosing to invest that money elsewhere.
- HyperRational 5y ago
- wffurr 5y agoThat's one way to spin choosing not to extend the operating licenses of existing plants operating safely.
- tempnow987 5y agoHaha. For those not following this post Fukushima germany basically cancelled / shortened the permits for a bunch of plants. This had nothing to do with plants being in such bad condition they would have closed anyways, that's a total lie in almost all cases. Germany is shutting down pretty nice later gen plants commissioned in 1989. The US is still operating much older designs commissioned in 1969 (20 years older).
- 5y ago
- krona 5y agoI don't know what the contract looks like; doesn't Germany have a legal obligation to pay Russia even if it were to stop LNG imports?
- alex-ant 5y agoRussia breaks its legal obligations all the time.
- swores 5y agoPossibly, but without knowing what the contract looks like there's no reason to assume it doesn't have break clauses like most contracts.
- gruez 5y ago>legal obligation something tells me that Germany doesn't care about that right now.
- dathinab 5y agoWell yes, they simply can't cut the Gas. I don't know where people get the illusion from that you could "just get it from somewhere else" in matter of days/weeks. That's simply not the case at all. Even if we speaking about month and accepting Gas prices doubling or more it close to impossible. But the EU can't accept Gas prices exploding to that degree. While this article loves to blame Germany they kinda forget that part of this Gas is resold in to neighboring countries. Also in all of Germany (through slightly more so in east Germany) most houses heat with Gas, warm Water with Gas and especially on cheaper (longer not renovated) apartments also have a Gas oven and Stove. Until ~20 or so years ago central gas heating + gas stoves where the most common way to build apartment houses, in recent years its central gas heating + electronic stoves/ovens. Due to disagreements with Russia in recent years gas imports also have been limit to long term contracts, hence there are no (in this context relevant) gas reserves. Also while people love to say Germany is unnecessary switching of atomar power plants the truth is what they did wasn't building new ones. All the still running power plants are already operating well beyond the time they where build for. With the Ukraine conflict Germany "suspended" the shutdown of them, but they still need to shut down. Germany has space wise not much space. It can't afford a single reactor failure at all (like Germany might literally collapse if there is a reactor meltdown with some of the more central power plants). When the conflict started Germany did fast line some projects to become more/faster able to switch off or massive reduce Russian gas (like started building LNG ship terminals). But all of this takes time. Luckily spring is coming so it might be possible. But if you now would stop Gas you would practically derive millions of EU citizens of an affordable way to cook, heat and wash. And with affordable I don't mean cheap, but like affordable at all. With existing instabilities from COVID and a word wide re-emergence of facism you can guess twice if the EU would to so. Their main priority is to protect their citizens and constitution/democracy. Switching of Russian Gas now (like in a week) would likely fail both. So it's not an option at all, at least not _yet_. If their would be a doable way to switch of Russian Gas it would have been done. Similar if Russia could no longer send Gas they also would have done so to create massive internal instabilities in the EU. So the Gas sells are currently something neither party (Germany/Russia) likes but neither can stop either.
- rdiddly 5y agoHmm now where have I seen that color scheme before?
- tuyguntn 5y ago
- tuyguntn 5y agoinstead of banning Russian oil, I would first start with banning sending weapons to Ukraine and demand 240 hours non-stop negotiations to stop the war sooner. 10 days of not leaving anywhere unless consensus has been reached
- qaq 5y agoConsensus on we believe your nation should not exist? Ukraine already once found the consensus of give up worlds 3d largest nuclear arsenal in exchange for security guarantees. It worked out great.
- internet_user 5y agoregarding the security guarantees, it appears that memorandum was not legally binding, and provides no real guarantees, as per the US themselves, and pre-2014. "Regardless, the United States publicly maintains that "the Memorandum is not legally binding", calling it a "political commitment"."[0] "not legally binding", below. "Media Statement by the U.S. Embassy in Minsk April 12, 2013 Repeated assertions by the government of Belarus that U.S. sanctions violate the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances are unfounded. Although the Memorandum is not legally binding, we take these political commitments seriously and do not believe any U.S. sanctions, whether imposed because of human rights or non-proliferation concerns, are inconsistent with our commitments to Belarus under the Memorandum or undermine them. Rather, sanctions are aimed at securing the human rights of Belarusians and combating the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and other illicit activities, not at gaining any advantage for the United States."[1] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances#Content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit... [1]https://web.archive.org/web/20140419030507/http://minsk.usembassy.gov/budapest_memorandum.html https://web.archive.org/web/20140419030507/http://minsk.usem...
- ricardo81 5y agoMaybe I'm naive but I can see why Western countries tried to get Russia on board the world capitalism gravy train. Obviously the context has changed massively in the past month, maybe even since 2014. In any event, less reliance on fossil fuels is a good thing, and at the moment, less reliance on Russian fossil fuels in the EU is probably a good thing.
- jacquesm 5y agoWell, one assumption didn't hold: that in a more economically connected world war would be a thing of the past.
- _vmcx 5y agoDidn't we work this one out after WW1?
- jacquesm 5y agoNot really, no. The USSR and China were pretty isolated spheres and there wasn't all that much trade between those blocks and 'the West' for a very long time. That all changed in the 80's, 90's and accelerated in the 00's. The idea was that if we don't want to engage them in a military way in a direct confrontation that by trading so much with each other that our economies would suffer substantially from either one breaking off that we would avoid doing so. The economical version of 'MAD'. That turns out to have been a mistake. What happened between WWI and WWII is not really representative in comparison.
- throwaway_4ever 5y agoThe context changed in 2008 when they invaded Georgia.
- lambdasquirrel 5y agoI still remember the pictures of Merkel and Putin, when Merkel was negotiating for this stuff. Putin brought a big dog because he knew Merkel had a fear of them. Hindsight is 20/20 perhaps. It's really hard to understate the guilt that has existed in Germany over WWII. Also, in Western Europe, there's much more of an understanding that it was Russia that took the brunt of the fighting, not the U.S., and when the Berlin Wall fell, there were many who hoped for a new start. But Russia, with its geography and its legacy, was notoriously difficult to switch over to capitalism. The 1998 crash of the ruble left deep scars on the country. It may have almost been inevitable that a figure like Putin would arise, in part because we (in the West) were naive about how capitalism would take hold there. Regardless, there's the reality that there is now. Germany needs to be able to act in its own self-defense, and Europe needs to wean off of Russian fossil fuels, if only because the lines have been drawn. It's not clear that that arrangement was ever good for the rise of a friendly and economically healthy Russia.
- motoboi 5y agoI wouldn’t doubt, given the nefarious consequences for Germany, that this site is Russian INFOSEC campaign. Germany cannot function without Russian gas right now. Simple there isn’t enough BTU’s. Why did Germany put itself into this strange Russian dependency is also very strange. Perfectly fine and environmentally friendly nuclear power plants for dependency from Russian natural gas. Why?
- zibzab 5y ago> Why did Germany put itself into this strange Russian dependency is also very strange. Because they wanted to go green but also have a really, _really_ bad case of NIMBY.
- gruez 5y ago> I wouldn’t doubt, given the nefarious consequences for Germany, that this site is Russian INFOSEC campaign. Is this a variant of poe's law? In other words, a campaign is considered so ridiculous that it couldn't possibly legitimate, and must be part of a foreign disinformation campaign?
- grobclaw 5y agoYou're suggesting that Russia wants Germany to stop importing gas? If so, why doesn't Russia stop selling it, like they threaten to every now and then?
- motoboi 5y agoRussia wants to put Germany in a bad negotiation position. If internal pressure to shutdown Russian gas becomes too strong, and shutting down Russian gas is a tremendous self-inflicted harm, a better alternative for politicians is to find a quick compromise with Russia. Without russia having to publicly force this to happen.
- lnsru 5y agoHave you heard about guy called Gas Gerd? He did amazing job lobbying Russian gas for decades.
- 5y ago
- renewiltord 5y agoThe environmentalists did this. They killed nuclear. They killed wind in Bavaria. This is the price of all that. Europe has destroyed her nature over the centuries, and now Europe won't do her part. If Russia has Germany by the balls, it's their own fault.
- kitkat_new 5y agoCSU (a conservative / right) is the only party that strongly is in favor of the 10H rule, which is responsible for stopping wind energy (it says that people need to have a distance of 10*heightOfThePlant to the plant what you call environmentalists are mostly NIMBYs. The green party, actually, is in favor of abandoning 10H.
- blackhaz 5y agoThere's nothing wrong with caring about environment. Paid lobby did this, using environmentalism as an argument.
- sendfoods 5y agoDoes anybody know why Germany isn't really using their domestic gas fields? According to the german EPA equivalent[1] there's enough for 10 years of usage. While I agree with the need to shut off Nordstream I, I am not sure Germany can afford this right now due to historically low gas reserves [2]. I have to disagree with the tone of the statement "We can afford the consequences". Who is "we"? The lower middle class of Germany, who already suffers some of the highest taxes in the world and the highest energy prices in the world? The government clearly does not care about energy prices: Gas prices are nearly 50% taxed, are they willing to lower it for lower income families? No. [1] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/service/uba-fragen/wie-gross-sind-die-erdgas-vorkommen-in-deutschland https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/service/uba-fragen/wie-gross-... [2] https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/politik/erdgas-russland-ukraine-gasspeicher-100.html https://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/deutschland/politik/erdgas-ru...
- est31 5y agoThose 10 years require the use of fracking, which is I think too bad for the environment, especially for a country as densely populated as Germany. The resources that don't require fracking are only enough for 1-2 years of consumption at current levels.
- sendfoods 5y agoThat would be enough until we get LPG from Qatar, which is being reported as the earliest in Summer 2023.
- est31 5y agoNot sure how realistic it is to access the resources in such a short time frame.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- toss1 5y agoGermany just today cut a NatGas deal with Qatar to reduce RUS dependence [0]. They are certainly looking, as they should. I'd say the biggest issue with the local fields is that they are likely undeveloped, and that takes time before the oil flows. Ironically, from what I've gathered watching the US fields, the fracking wells take less time to turn on/off vs the more ordinary wells. If Germany can turn on any local wells, especially quickly, it should help significantly, since the big issue is to buy time - time to switch to new sources of NatGas/Oil, and time to replace sinks with renewables. Also to consider is the relative harm from some short-term drilling & fracking, vs the damage if RUS has the funds to expand their aggression into more of the EU. [0] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/20/germany-seals-gas-deal-with-qatar-to-reduce-dependence-on-russia https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/20/germany-seals-gas-d...
- Zpalmtree 5y agoYeah, I'm sure the regular Germans want their energy bills to go up massively while the media incites us into another war. Thanks but no thanks
- mikaeluman 5y agoThis has come up many times by now. But the supposed transition to renewable energy in Germany was merely a substitution of natural gas for nuclear power. What bothers me greatly is that Germany still has not come to turns with the fact that they need nuclear power. That is a long and costly investment to make and you need to start right away. LNG can only get you so far and renewable sources just can't provide the energy needed, as should be clear by now (although it was widely understood for the past 30 years at least).
- Archelaos 5y agoGermany does not need nuclear power. This is far too expensive and dangerous. The future is renewable.
- yucky 5y ago>The future is renewable. So what should they do in the present?
- ghusto 5y agoThey shut down two reactors, and are currently reliant on other countries nuclear generated power. As long as they get to say _they're_ not the ones producing it, it's okay? I'm all for renewable energy, but this is hypocritic nonsense fuelled by emotional decision making, and not helpful towards that goal.
- Archelaos 5y ago> hypocritic nonsense Please, stay calm. Germany is in a transition process. Nuclear is phasing out, renewable is coming. In the EU Austria, Denmark, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Norway, and Portugal have no nuclear power plants (Estonia has none, but is planning one; Croatia has none, but operates one together with Slovenia; Poland is planning one for 2040). Germany is just joining this club of "hypocrites" this year. In the next years, Germany is going to export more electric energy than importing. Yes, there are days when Germany needs to import electricity, but that this includes electricity produced by nuclear power is only due to the fact that other countries are slower in their transition process or have decided against it. You should not blame Germany for being fast, when others are just slow.
- hogrider 5y agoThey could just do without they really could. They're just hypocrits that can't lower industrial output and wear warm clothes.
- tuyguntn 5y ago@dang can you please explain why I am getting flagged for sharing my opinions on the issue happening right now? Can someone go through my opinions and prove me that I am a troll? My opinions are mine, based on what I have read and experienced in this life. I know my opinions are not popular, but it doesn't make them invalid. This is happening again and again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30756420 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30756420 https://imgur.com/a/DlieDOo https://imgur.com/a/DlieDOo
- tuyguntn 5y ago
- readthenotes1 5y agoEven a dolt could see how misaligned with national interests the German energy policy is. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-were-un-diplomats-laughing-at-trump/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-were-un-diplomats-laughing-...
- AtlasBarfed 5y agoThis war has laid bare ten years of poor strategic planning with alternate energy and PHEV vehicles that would have neutered not just Russia, but Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and OPEC in general. Oil supports totalitarian regimes, and degrades the integrity of democracies by supporting multinational petroleum companies that have a long and detailed list of dirty tricks to get what they want.
- jerome-jh 5y agoAlthough I agree Europe should take the risk to stop importing Russian gaz, I disagree refugees cost GDP points. Refugees are usually young and educated and this is another reason for them to be so much welcome in ageing countries. A few years ago Germany alone accepted almost one million syrian refugees, with no consequence on GDP. Europe as a whole can easily integrate the complete population of Ukraine. This is not a desirable outcome for this war though. [*] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrians_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrians_in_Germany
- kkfx 5y agoPolitics aside I'm curious to hear unreal environmentalist (I consider myself a "real" one) how they imaging the world. For instance "gas pollute, stop ICEs vehicles!" fun to hear, who can provide new e.v. to replace gazillions of cars in a snap and provide the needed infrastructure to recharge them... Again for gas: I live in a "class A" home, so I'm all electric but how can a classic home be heated without gas or oil or wood? 30+kW power from heat pumps? Oh, of course we can build new homes, who pay? How this can be done in dense cities made of multi-apartment buildings? Long story short: in 50+ years we can probably rebuild actual society in a new one with different infrastructures etc, definitively not tomorrow. That's the point.