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> for what? For Bin Laden. America has done terrible things, but what Russia is doing to Ukraine is much worse than Afghanistan or Iraq. When in recent histo

> for what? For Bin Laden. America has done terrible things, but what Russia is doing to Ukraine is much worse than Afghanistan or Iraq. When in recent history did the UK surround a city of another country and starve it to death whilst deliberately shelling civilians? There isn't a comparison. Russia's actions in Syria are the most similar to the Ukraine situation that I'm aware of in recent history.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago
So, destroy a country for one man? Good guys americans! > When in recent history did the UK surround a city of another country and starve it to death whilst deliberately shelling civilians? Yugoslavia, 1999... civil buildings were actual targets, not just "accidents"... from tobacco factories, to public television, bridges, etc. Also cluster bombed a city... If you count the "mistakes", also a passenger train, bus, group of escaping refugees, hospitals, schools, etc. Oh, and let's not forget the chinese embassy. And USA is also currently occupying syria.
- adventured 5y ago
  As the parent correctly pointed out, it's not even remotely close to comparable. The Russians are intentionally destroying entire large cities, intentionally committing genocide against thousands of civilians in Ukraine. Intentionally seeking to starve and deprive the civilian population of the basic requirements of survival to further their conquest aims. At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end.
  - camdat 5y ago
    >At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end And it will pale in comparison to the 300 thousand civilians killed in the US intervention in Afghanistan alone. At least Russia will likely succeed in it's military objectives.
    - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
      Not that long ago, I was under the impression that americans knew that they were the "bad guys" in all of those wars, but stood quiet, because they gained cheap oil and other benefits from most of them. I also got that sentiment from eg. the french, when their governments did something bad in any of their (former) colonies. There were even movies/documentaries (Michael Moore comes to mind), or even historic conflicts (vietnam and the Hippie culture around it), showing the US doing bad stuff around the world. And now? It makes me sad, that so many american people actually consider themselves the "good guys" for destroying random countries and killing people there. Like they did nothing bad, when they bombed peoples houses, occupied their countries, stole their oil, etc.
    - adventured 5y ago
      The US didn't kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. You're conflating two entirely different things. You're pretending the US shot, bombed and killed all those civilians, when in fact that was an Iraqi-on-Iraqi sectarian civil war that produced such high civilian deaths, a civil war which the US spent enormous resources trying to stop. Russia is directly, intentionlly killing the civilians in question in Ukraine. They're doing it on purpose, aiming for the civilians, to terrorize them into submission (and Russia has a very long history of this form of intentional terror-war against civilian populations in the name of conquest). Russia's genocide of Ukrainian civilians isn't a mistake of aiming, it's not an accident of war, it's not a whoops, they're trying to kill them and starve them (see what they're doing to Mariupol at present). The difference between the two situations is exceptionally obvious and morally clear.
      - randomsearch 5y ago
        Additional stats: the US and allies directly killed ~ 13 000 civilians during the occupation of Iraq. It's likely the Russians have exceeded that number in Mariupol alone in just a few weeks. The difference in these numbers reflects that Russia is deliberately targeting civilians. I condemn the occupation of Iraq, but agree it is exceptionally obvious that the two situations are in no way equivalent.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    Why is it not comparable? Why is cluster bombing a serbian city better than cluster bombing Kiev? ...except for you people calling it "bombing for peace" - https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/1101950911_400.jpg https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/11...
camdat 5y ago
>When in recent history did the UK surround a city of another country and starve it to death whilst deliberately shelling civilians? Is this a joke? I can think of three examples in the past 30 years.
- CommieBobDole 5y ago
  And those examples are?
  - camdat 5y ago
    Two entire countries and a city: Yemen Yugoslavia Baghdad I also forgot the highway of death... So four off the top of my head.
    - randomsearch 5y ago
      Since when did the UK surround and starve Baghdad??? These are completely different situations. In Mariupol, thousands of civilians have died in days of Russian bombing (the mayor estimates up to 20 000, but 4000 already certified) - including the deliberately shelling of civilian buildings by Russian forces. They've cut off power, heating, water, and have bombed theatres, schools, hospitals. Corpses are rotting in the streets.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

So, destroy a country for one man? Good guys americans! > When in recent history did the UK surround a city of another country and starve it to death whilst deliberately shelling civilians? Yugoslavia, 1999... civil buildings were actual targets, not just "accidents"... from tobacco factories, to public television, bridges, etc. Also cluster bombed a city... If you count the "mistakes", also a passenger train, bus, group of escaping refugees, hospitals, schools, etc. Oh, and let's not forget the chinese embassy. And USA is also currently occupying syria.

adventured 5y ago
As the parent correctly pointed out, it's not even remotely close to comparable. The Russians are intentionally destroying entire large cities, intentionally committing genocide against thousands of civilians in Ukraine. Intentionally seeking to starve and deprive the civilian population of the basic requirements of survival to further their conquest aims. At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end.
- camdat 5y ago
  >At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end And it will pale in comparison to the 300 thousand civilians killed in the US intervention in Afghanistan alone. At least Russia will likely succeed in it's military objectives.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    Not that long ago, I was under the impression that americans knew that they were the "bad guys" in all of those wars, but stood quiet, because they gained cheap oil and other benefits from most of them. I also got that sentiment from eg. the french, when their governments did something bad in any of their (former) colonies. There were even movies/documentaries (Michael Moore comes to mind), or even historic conflicts (vietnam and the Hippie culture around it), showing the US doing bad stuff around the world. And now? It makes me sad, that so many american people actually consider themselves the "good guys" for destroying random countries and killing people there. Like they did nothing bad, when they bombed peoples houses, occupied their countries, stole their oil, etc.
  - adventured 5y ago
    The US didn't kill hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. You're conflating two entirely different things. You're pretending the US shot, bombed and killed all those civilians, when in fact that was an Iraqi-on-Iraqi sectarian civil war that produced such high civilian deaths, a civil war which the US spent enormous resources trying to stop. Russia is directly, intentionlly killing the civilians in question in Ukraine. They're doing it on purpose, aiming for the civilians, to terrorize them into submission (and Russia has a very long history of this form of intentional terror-war against civilian populations in the name of conquest). Russia's genocide of Ukrainian civilians isn't a mistake of aiming, it's not an accident of war, it's not a whoops, they're trying to kill them and starve them (see what they're doing to Mariupol at present). The difference between the two situations is exceptionally obvious and morally clear.
    - randomsearch 5y ago
      Additional stats: the US and allies directly killed ~ 13 000 civilians during the occupation of Iraq. It's likely the Russians have exceeded that number in Mariupol alone in just a few weeks. The difference in these numbers reflects that Russia is deliberately targeting civilians. I condemn the occupation of Iraq, but agree it is exceptionally obvious that the two situations are in no way equivalent.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  Why is it not comparable? Why is cluster bombing a serbian city better than cluster bombing Kiev? ...except for you people calling it "bombing for peace" - https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/1101950911_400.jpg https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/11...

camdat 5y ago

>When in recent history did the UK surround a city of another country and starve it to death whilst deliberately shelling civilians? Is this a joke? I can think of three examples in the past 30 years.

CommieBobDole 5y ago
And those examples are?
- camdat 5y ago
  Two entire countries and a city: Yemen Yugoslavia Baghdad I also forgot the highway of death... So four off the top of my head.
  - randomsearch 5y ago
    Since when did the UK surround and starve Baghdad??? These are completely different situations. In Mariupol, thousands of civilians have died in days of Russian bombing (the mayor estimates up to 20 000, but 4000 already certified) - including the deliberately shelling of civilian buildings by Russian forces. They've cut off power, heating, water, and have bombed theatres, schools, hospitals. Corpses are rotting in the streets.