18 ms·

Yes, the decline russia will face is tragic, and for what? At best they will own some land that has had all the buildings and infrastructure ground to dust and

Yes, the decline russia will face is tragic, and for what? At best they will own some land that has had all the buildings and infrastructure ground to dust and citizens who have all been murdered. Russia is spending tremendous resources to destroy more resources, but physical and social. It is the stupidest thing I've seen in my life.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  No you misunderstand, Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty much a tie in my mind, and should the USA invade anyone in the future, please sanction us until I starve to death or leave.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    Like syria, you're occupying now?
    - mminer237 5y ago
      I don't think 900 servicemen supporting the local SDF to defend certain locations in a de facto autonomous region is really comparable in any way to Russia sending 200,000 soldiers to conquer a sovereign nation and indiscriminately shell all major cities.
      - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
        If eg. mexico bombed the shit out of USA, because it didn't like their leaders, basically destroyed the country, change the government, kill a bunch of people, and then leave behind 900 mexican soldiers, would you see those soldiers as "someone defending you", or as an occupation?
- khuey 5y ago
  Ignoring morality entirely for a moment it is rather remarkable that Russia watched the US experience in Afghanistan and Iraq and said "yes, we'd like that for us, but on hard mode".
  - gameswithgo 5y ago
    Russia did the same thing in Afghanistan shortly before! With the same result!
    - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
      Well yeah, and americans trained osama bin laden to fight them. Oh how the turntables... So we basically agree, that both countries are bad, but we somehow act as if somehow americans are the "good guys" for bombing weddings in pakistan and killing afghanis, and bunch of other people, and that russians deserve the sanctions, while other countries currently occupying eg. syria don't.
      - adventured 5y ago
        The US are the good guys, quite obviously. That's why nearly all the good - liberal, democratic, freedom-oriented - nations are specifically aligned with the US, and why Russia's only pals are tyrants. It's also why Ukraine is friends with the US (despite the distance and cultural separation) and is fighting a war against Russia, because Russia are the bad guys (anti democratic, anti liberal, regressive, dictatorship, conquest-oriented). Nobody thinks the US are the good guys for bombing a wedding in Pakistan. It's for countless other reasons that people still think the US are on the side of good, as it always has been. You're of course attempting to use a particularly weak argument to prove a massive claim. The US doesn't have to be perfect to be good. What Germany did in WW2 doesn't preclude them from being good now; what the British Empire did doesn't preclude them from being good now; and so on. The US have been such extraordinary good guys across time, we even saved millions of Russians from starvation by their own government (even while Russia was broadly considered an enemy of the US at the time, we saved them anyway): https://news.stanford.edu/pr/2011/pr-famine-040411.html https://news.stanford.edu/pr/2011/pr-famine-040411.html Things like that are what have built the US moral credibility, which stacks against its various mistakes (and everyone here knows well all the prominent US mistakes). The US invaded Germany, the US invaded Italy, the US invaded France (and several other European nations), the US invaded Japan, the US invaded Korea. Now contrast what the US did after invading Europe, with what Russia did. It's the difference between being the good guys and being the bad guys, just ask Poland what the difference is - they know exactly what the stark separation between the US and Russia represents (the difference between freedom and slavery, affluence and poverty). There's a reason why Poland welcomes US soldiers on its soil, and why they'd fight to the death to keep Russian soldiers out of their territory. Ask Czechia, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania what the difference is, they all know. Why are all of Russia's weaker neighbors afraid of it? Meanwhile, there's affluent, free, peace-loving Canada, not afraid in the least (witness their military spending) that the US superpower of the last 75 years would invade and attempt to conquer them. The difference between the US and Russia could hardly be any greater, now or in the past. The Canadians know it, the Polish know it, the Ukrainians know it. What Russia is doing right now is evil, and they are the villains in this war, regardless of what they did in the past. We don't need to eg go into the history of the Holodomor and other things Russia has done to Ukraine and its people to demonstrate their evil, all we need is to focus on what Russia is doing at present (intentionally genociding the civilians of Ukraine). Russia are the bad guys and it couldn't be any more clear than it is - which is again why Ukraine (freedom-seeking, aspirational democracy, liberal-leaning, West-leaning) is asking the US to help them fight against Russia and why Ukraine appeals to the US about shared liberal values just as they have with other European democracies. The US didn't train bin Laden. It didn't invent Al Qaeda. It didn't train or create the Taliban either. Funding various Mujahideen in Afghanistan in the decade prior to the founding of the Taliban, doesn't equate to training bin Laden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_assistance_to_Osama_bin_Laden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_assistance_...
- newaccount2021 5y ago
- randomsearch 5y ago
  > for what? For Bin Laden. America has done terrible things, but what Russia is doing to Ukraine is much worse than Afghanistan or Iraq. When in recent history did the UK surround a city of another country and starve it to death whilst deliberately shelling civilians? There isn't a comparison. Russia's actions in Syria are the most similar to the Ukraine situation that I'm aware of in recent history.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    So, destroy a country for one man? Good guys americans! > When in recent history did the UK surround a city of another country and starve it to death whilst deliberately shelling civilians? Yugoslavia, 1999... civil buildings were actual targets, not just "accidents"... from tobacco factories, to public television, bridges, etc. Also cluster bombed a city... If you count the "mistakes", also a passenger train, bus, group of escaping refugees, hospitals, schools, etc. Oh, and let's not forget the chinese embassy. And USA is also currently occupying syria.
    - adventured 5y ago
      As the parent correctly pointed out, it's not even remotely close to comparable. The Russians are intentionally destroying entire large cities, intentionally committing genocide against thousands of civilians in Ukraine. Intentionally seeking to starve and deprive the civilian population of the basic requirements of survival to further their conquest aims. At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end.
      - camdat 5y ago
        >At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end And it will pale in comparison to the 300 thousand civilians killed in the US intervention in Afghanistan alone. At least Russia will likely succeed in it's military objectives.
loudmax 5y ago
I don't think there was any scenario where the invasion was a benefit to Russia. But if it had gone the way most analysts had expected, with Kyiv falling after four days, it could have been a benefit to Vladimir Putin. With the invasion having gone horribly wrong it's clear to everyone that it's in Russia's best interest to withdraw immediately. But what's in Russia's best interest isn't necessarily in Putin's personal interest. So better to keep on killing Ukrainian men, women, children by the thousands to save his own skin. Some call Putin a "genius". I'd call him something different.
- necovek 5y ago
  He's also sending Russian soldiers into death. Mutiny is hard and complicated, and runs a huge risk for your life and life of your family, so even those convinced they are doing the wrong stuff will have a hard time stopping themselves.
icu 5y ago
Before I begin to offer a different view, please allow me to say that I in no way condone what is happening. So why is Putin invading Ukraine now? There are several logical reasons if you understand Russian history, geography, psychology and demography. In terms of history, in the past 500 years, Russia has been invaded several times from the west. Specifically, Moscow has been attacked and conquered six times in its history by foreign armies, and usually via the same routes. This is also where geography plays an important role in understanding the Russian invasion. In terms of geography, the Carpathian Mountains are a natural land defence between the Baltic Sea, and the Black Sea. Indeed, in the days of the USSR, under the Warsaw Pact, the Russians could project military power in the land gaps either side of the Carpathian Mountains on Baltic and Black Seas. This is where NATO expansion has worried the Russians because, post the USSR, I speculate they feel Moscow is exposed, and is being encircled by NATO. I also speculate the psychology of the Russian leadership is one of paranoia of land invasion, and they want to push out territory (or at least project military power) to fight an invasion from the historical routes Russia has been invaded from. Post-communist Russia has been doing just this and is why Crimea was effectively annexed by Russia (because they wanted to project naval power into the Black Sea). From a US perspective we like to think that the US was the biggest factor in the Allied win of WWII, but little thought is given to how important the Russians were and how many Russians lost their lives. This is where, most mainstream media has completely omitted the rise of far-right violence and politics in Ukraine. No one in the West wants to think they are supporting Nazis even if they are fending off the Russians. Please note that I am not saying that all Ukrainians are far-right, however I speculate that the Russians do care about the rise of the far right in Ukraine (as it is along their border), and from their perspective see it as stopping the rise of another WWII Nazi-Germany type situation. Lastly, demography plays a part because Russia has had several 'baby busts', that is not enough babies have been born. I speculate that the Russian leadership believes that if Russia does not plug the geographic routes for invasion now, it never will. Sadly, I also don’t see Russia stopping with Ukraine. If the Russians will stop at nothing to gain geographic security this puts Russia in a direct confrontation with NATO member states. I also worry about the second order consequences, like the loss of life and suffering that will happen due to a loss of Ukrainian wheat crops, and the loss of global crops due to sanctions on fertilizers from Russia.
- deleted 5y ago
perlgeek 5y ago
Not to mention that reproduction rates both in Russia and in the Ukraine are below replacement levels, so they'll have more land for a shrinking population.
- necovek 5y ago
  Wasn't that the case in Western countries as well 30 years ago? Basically, formerly communist countries are 20-30 years behind in the sociological development, even if they catch up economically in some aspects earlier (though those are closely intertwined, because they are still at "I can't reasonably provide for more than 1-2 children").
golergka 5y ago
> Yes, the decline russia will face is tragic, and for what? For Putin to stay in control of the country. And also, for majority of Russians, to finally have the moment of their fascist pride.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

gameswithgo 5y ago
No you misunderstand, Iraq and Afghanistan are pretty much a tie in my mind, and should the USA invade anyone in the future, please sanction us until I starve to death or leave.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  Like syria, you're occupying now?
  - mminer237 5y ago
    I don't think 900 servicemen supporting the local SDF to defend certain locations in a de facto autonomous region is really comparable in any way to Russia sending 200,000 soldiers to conquer a sovereign nation and indiscriminately shell all major cities.
    - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
      If eg. mexico bombed the shit out of USA, because it didn't like their leaders, basically destroyed the country, change the government, kill a bunch of people, and then leave behind 900 mexican soldiers, would you see those soldiers as "someone defending you", or as an occupation?
khuey 5y ago
Ignoring morality entirely for a moment it is rather remarkable that Russia watched the US experience in Afghanistan and Iraq and said "yes, we'd like that for us, but on hard mode".
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  Russia did the same thing in Afghanistan shortly before! With the same result!
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    Well yeah, and americans trained osama bin laden to fight them. Oh how the turntables... So we basically agree, that both countries are bad, but we somehow act as if somehow americans are the "good guys" for bombing weddings in pakistan and killing afghanis, and bunch of other people, and that russians deserve the sanctions, while other countries currently occupying eg. syria don't.
    - adventured 5y ago
      The US are the good guys, quite obviously. That's why nearly all the good - liberal, democratic, freedom-oriented - nations are specifically aligned with the US, and why Russia's only pals are tyrants. It's also why Ukraine is friends with the US (despite the distance and cultural separation) and is fighting a war against Russia, because Russia are the bad guys (anti democratic, anti liberal, regressive, dictatorship, conquest-oriented). Nobody thinks the US are the good guys for bombing a wedding in Pakistan. It's for countless other reasons that people still think the US are on the side of good, as it always has been. You're of course attempting to use a particularly weak argument to prove a massive claim. The US doesn't have to be perfect to be good. What Germany did in WW2 doesn't preclude them from being good now; what the British Empire did doesn't preclude them from being good now; and so on. The US have been such extraordinary good guys across time, we even saved millions of Russians from starvation by their own government (even while Russia was broadly considered an enemy of the US at the time, we saved them anyway): https://news.stanford.edu/pr/2011/pr-famine-040411.html https://news.stanford.edu/pr/2011/pr-famine-040411.html Things like that are what have built the US moral credibility, which stacks against its various mistakes (and everyone here knows well all the prominent US mistakes). The US invaded Germany, the US invaded Italy, the US invaded France (and several other European nations), the US invaded Japan, the US invaded Korea. Now contrast what the US did after invading Europe, with what Russia did. It's the difference between being the good guys and being the bad guys, just ask Poland what the difference is - they know exactly what the stark separation between the US and Russia represents (the difference between freedom and slavery, affluence and poverty). There's a reason why Poland welcomes US soldiers on its soil, and why they'd fight to the death to keep Russian soldiers out of their territory. Ask Czechia, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania what the difference is, they all know. Why are all of Russia's weaker neighbors afraid of it? Meanwhile, there's affluent, free, peace-loving Canada, not afraid in the least (witness their military spending) that the US superpower of the last 75 years would invade and attempt to conquer them. The difference between the US and Russia could hardly be any greater, now or in the past. The Canadians know it, the Polish know it, the Ukrainians know it. What Russia is doing right now is evil, and they are the villains in this war, regardless of what they did in the past. We don't need to eg go into the history of the Holodomor and other things Russia has done to Ukraine and its people to demonstrate their evil, all we need is to focus on what Russia is doing at present (intentionally genociding the civilians of Ukraine). Russia are the bad guys and it couldn't be any more clear than it is - which is again why Ukraine (freedom-seeking, aspirational democracy, liberal-leaning, West-leaning) is asking the US to help them fight against Russia and why Ukraine appeals to the US about shared liberal values just as they have with other European democracies. The US didn't train bin Laden. It didn't invent Al Qaeda. It didn't train or create the Taliban either. Funding various Mujahideen in Afghanistan in the decade prior to the founding of the Taliban, doesn't equate to training bin Laden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_assistance_to_Osama_bin_Laden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_assistance_...
newaccount2021 5y ago
randomsearch 5y ago
> for what? For Bin Laden. America has done terrible things, but what Russia is doing to Ukraine is much worse than Afghanistan or Iraq. When in recent history did the UK surround a city of another country and starve it to death whilst deliberately shelling civilians? There isn't a comparison. Russia's actions in Syria are the most similar to the Ukraine situation that I'm aware of in recent history.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  So, destroy a country for one man? Good guys americans! > When in recent history did the UK surround a city of another country and starve it to death whilst deliberately shelling civilians? Yugoslavia, 1999... civil buildings were actual targets, not just "accidents"... from tobacco factories, to public television, bridges, etc. Also cluster bombed a city... If you count the "mistakes", also a passenger train, bus, group of escaping refugees, hospitals, schools, etc. Oh, and let's not forget the chinese embassy. And USA is also currently occupying syria.
  - adventured 5y ago
    As the parent correctly pointed out, it's not even remotely close to comparable. The Russians are intentionally destroying entire large cities, intentionally committing genocide against thousands of civilians in Ukraine. Intentionally seeking to starve and deprive the civilian population of the basic requirements of survival to further their conquest aims. At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end.
    - camdat 5y ago
      >At the rate Russia is going, it'll have intentionally murdered tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians before the war is likely to end And it will pale in comparison to the 300 thousand civilians killed in the US intervention in Afghanistan alone. At least Russia will likely succeed in it's military objectives.

loudmax 5y ago

I don't think there was any scenario where the invasion was a benefit to Russia. But if it had gone the way most analysts had expected, with Kyiv falling after four days, it could have been a benefit to Vladimir Putin. With the invasion having gone horribly wrong it's clear to everyone that it's in Russia's best interest to withdraw immediately. But what's in Russia's best interest isn't necessarily in Putin's personal interest. So better to keep on killing Ukrainian men, women, children by the thousands to save his own skin. Some call Putin a "genius". I'd call him something different.

necovek 5y ago
He's also sending Russian soldiers into death. Mutiny is hard and complicated, and runs a huge risk for your life and life of your family, so even those convinced they are doing the wrong stuff will have a hard time stopping themselves.

icu 5y ago

Before I begin to offer a different view, please allow me to say that I in no way condone what is happening. So why is Putin invading Ukraine now? There are several logical reasons if you understand Russian history, geography, psychology and demography. In terms of history, in the past 500 years, Russia has been invaded several times from the west. Specifically, Moscow has been attacked and conquered six times in its history by foreign armies, and usually via the same routes. This is also where geography plays an important role in understanding the Russian invasion. In terms of geography, the Carpathian Mountains are a natural land defence between the Baltic Sea, and the Black Sea. Indeed, in the days of the USSR, under the Warsaw Pact, the Russians could project military power in the land gaps either side of the Carpathian Mountains on Baltic and Black Seas. This is where NATO expansion has worried the Russians because, post the USSR, I speculate they feel Moscow is exposed, and is being encircled by NATO. I also speculate the psychology of the Russian leadership is one of paranoia of land invasion, and they want to push out territory (or at least project military power) to fight an invasion from the historical routes Russia has been invaded from. Post-communist Russia has been doing just this and is why Crimea was effectively annexed by Russia (because they wanted to project naval power into the Black Sea). From a US perspective we like to think that the US was the biggest factor in the Allied win of WWII, but little thought is given to how important the Russians were and how many Russians lost their lives. This is where, most mainstream media has completely omitted the rise of far-right violence and politics in Ukraine. No one in the West wants to think they are supporting Nazis even if they are fending off the Russians. Please note that I am not saying that all Ukrainians are far-right, however I speculate that the Russians do care about the rise of the far right in Ukraine (as it is along their border), and from their perspective see it as stopping the rise of another WWII Nazi-Germany type situation. Lastly, demography plays a part because Russia has had several 'baby busts', that is not enough babies have been born. I speculate that the Russian leadership believes that if Russia does not plug the geographic routes for invasion now, it never will. Sadly, I also don’t see Russia stopping with Ukraine. If the Russians will stop at nothing to gain geographic security this puts Russia in a direct confrontation with NATO member states. I also worry about the second order consequences, like the loss of life and suffering that will happen due to a loss of Ukrainian wheat crops, and the loss of global crops due to sanctions on fertilizers from Russia.

deleted 5y ago

perlgeek 5y ago

Not to mention that reproduction rates both in Russia and in the Ukraine are below replacement levels, so they'll have more land for a shrinking population.

necovek 5y ago
Wasn't that the case in Western countries as well 30 years ago? Basically, formerly communist countries are 20-30 years behind in the sociological development, even if they catch up economically in some aspects earlier (though those are closely intertwined, because they are still at "I can't reasonably provide for more than 1-2 children").

golergka 5y ago

> Yes, the decline russia will face is tragic, and for what? For Putin to stay in control of the country. And also, for majority of Russians, to finally have the moment of their fascist pride.