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To all those now worrying that we are on the way to a Fourth Reich! Fear not! I'm sure the money will be wasted and squandered just as it was for the last 20 ye

To all those now worrying that we are on the way to a Fourth Reich! Fear not! I'm sure the money will be wasted and squandered just as it was for the last 20 years. Even though Germany was often criticized for its small spending on the military, lets not forget that due to the large GDP, the spending in absolute terms is not that meager: 50 billion Euros per year! That is only about 15-20% less than Russia. What has it gotten us? A completely dysfunctional army with almost no working equipment. The part that is working is in large part outdated. As the Ukrainian ambassador to Germany pointed out, the Ukrainians have already destroyed more Russian tanks and armored vehicles and jets than the whole Bundeswehr currently has in working condition. Just as in many Western militaries, the procurement is so f*ked up that most of the money is spent on the development of new weapon systems so at the end of the day, no money seems to be left to actually buy any. The US seems to compensate by just spending even more money. Germany just didn't buy anything and the soldiers are driving around in Wolfs (G wagons! Sans the louis vuitton leather seats, though) from the 70s and can hardly keep more than a handful of their jets in flying condition.

nradov 5y ago
In 2015 the German army had to use wooden sticks in exercises because they had no guns. https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick-instead-guns-nato-exercise-307902 https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick... In 2017 the German navy had zero operational submarines. They were all broken. https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys-submarines-are-currently-down/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys... In 2018 the German air Force had only 4 Eurofighters combat ready. https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jets-combat-ready-report/a-43611873 https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jet... Hopefully the situation has improved since then?
- dr_faustus 5y ago
  I doubt it
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
socksset 5y ago
I doubt anyone is as worried about the 4th Reich as much Germans. I am pretty sure anyone expressing these worries outside of Germany is either a troll, completely ignorant or a combination of the two.
allisdust 5y ago
The worry is not about fourth reich. Worry is about whether the army raised in a pacifist country will be able to recruit sufficiently to increase the numbers and when the time comes, whether they want to fight. General reddit 'experts' seem to suggest, the army would instead propose an economic partnership with the opposing side to settle everything amicably (:
- cm2187 5y ago
  I have also heard germans complaining that the rules of engagement imposed on german troops make that they are in a world of trouble if they ever fire a single shot even in self defense.
mcv 5y ago
People often talking about the strength of armed forced in terms of how much money was spent on them, but money does not guarantee quality. Russia shows that you can have a big but useless military. Ukraine shows how you can do a lot with a little. It's possible to sink massive amounts of money into useless weapon systems, not to mention the corruption around their procurement. I'd like militaries to look a bit more at effectiveness, at having a military that they can actually use, and that is well suited for the kind of missions they're likely to use them for, and not merely at size and money.
mint2 5y ago
> due to the large GDP, the spending in absolute terms is not that meager: 50 billion Euros per year! This is ignoring the labor costs and other costs differences between Russia and Germany. A euro goes a heck of a lot further in Russia and pays quite a few more soldier salaries. And also for all that money even at cheaper wages, Russia military is embarrassing and appears to be in a state of poor maintenance. It’s only mighty due to callousness towards civilians and willingness to be a meat grinder if its own people.
- bionsystem 5y ago
  I beg to disagree. I don't think 1 euro to spend is more efficient in Russia than in Germany or other European country, just because it has cheaper staff and commodity. A lot is lost by nonsensical bureaucratic decisions and also by corruption ; some of this has even bought a few private jets and yachts by oligarchs, as well as useless (so far ?) military bases and bunkers on-land, and so forth.
  - mint2 5y ago
    That is a fair point but both that comment and mine shows it’s actually rather difficult to make sensical comparisons between absolute spend between two countries as different as Germany and Russia. There’s a thousands factors making the value of money in each country super different.

nradov 5y ago

In 2015 the German army had to use wooden sticks in exercises because they had no guns. https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick-instead-guns-nato-exercise-307902 https://www.newsweek.com/germany-cant-explain-use-broomstick... In 2017 the German navy had zero operational submarines. They were all broken. https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys-submarines-are-currently-down/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/10/20/all-of-germanys... In 2018 the German air Force had only 4 Eurofighters combat ready. https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jets-combat-ready-report/a-43611873 https://www.dw.com/en/only-4-of-germanys-128-eurofighter-jet... Hopefully the situation has improved since then?

dr_faustus 5y ago
I doubt it
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

socksset 5y ago

I doubt anyone is as worried about the 4th Reich as much Germans. I am pretty sure anyone expressing these worries outside of Germany is either a troll, completely ignorant or a combination of the two.

allisdust 5y ago

The worry is not about fourth reich. Worry is about whether the army raised in a pacifist country will be able to recruit sufficiently to increase the numbers and when the time comes, whether they want to fight. General reddit 'experts' seem to suggest, the army would instead propose an economic partnership with the opposing side to settle everything amicably (:

cm2187 5y ago
I have also heard germans complaining that the rules of engagement imposed on german troops make that they are in a world of trouble if they ever fire a single shot even in self defense.

mcv 5y ago

People often talking about the strength of armed forced in terms of how much money was spent on them, but money does not guarantee quality. Russia shows that you can have a big but useless military. Ukraine shows how you can do a lot with a little. It's possible to sink massive amounts of money into useless weapon systems, not to mention the corruption around their procurement. I'd like militaries to look a bit more at effectiveness, at having a military that they can actually use, and that is well suited for the kind of missions they're likely to use them for, and not merely at size and money.

mint2 5y ago

> due to the large GDP, the spending in absolute terms is not that meager: 50 billion Euros per year! This is ignoring the labor costs and other costs differences between Russia and Germany. A euro goes a heck of a lot further in Russia and pays quite a few more soldier salaries. And also for all that money even at cheaper wages, Russia military is embarrassing and appears to be in a state of poor maintenance. It’s only mighty due to callousness towards civilians and willingness to be a meat grinder if its own people.

bionsystem 5y ago
I beg to disagree. I don't think 1 euro to spend is more efficient in Russia than in Germany or other European country, just because it has cheaper staff and commodity. A lot is lost by nonsensical bureaucratic decisions and also by corruption ; some of this has even bought a few private jets and yachts by oligarchs, as well as useless (so far ?) military bases and bunkers on-land, and so forth.
- mint2 5y ago
  That is a fair point but both that comment and mine shows it’s actually rather difficult to make sensical comparisons between absolute spend between two countries as different as Germany and Russia. There’s a thousands factors making the value of money in each country super different.