7 ms·

Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares. Acknowledging this is the first step. The second is figuring out what would make them car

Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares. Acknowledging this is the first step. The second is figuring out what would make them care or how to remove them so someone who does care can take over. That's a much harder thing to do. Realistically Microsoft is in a similar position to the likes of Google and Facebook. They have such an entrenched monopoly, bought through years of ignored warnings and developing monoculture, that they can continue to be successful in a financial sense in spite of their actions rather than because of them. Until there is a credible challenger for the desktop OS market, a market that is itself evolving as other types of device now appeal to users who might have primarily used a desktop/laptop a few years ago, it is difficult to see how that changes. And the market is probably shrinking for desktop users who aren't in large organisations running "enterprise" software, with casual home users often preferring mobile devices and games consoles to a full PC now (though perhaps less so in light of recent world events and wanting to do more from home). So where is the serious competitor going to come from? I can think of a few at least slightly plausible scenarios but whether most of them would lead to anything less user-hostile than modern Windows is a different question.

hackerfromthefu 5y ago
As a developer I want to implement everything possible on the web platform. It's now a viable competitor for enterprise applications, both because web is getting more feature rich and these days has pretty much anything you need, and because desktop is getting worse with anti-features and jank. It's a sad state of affairs but that's where we are. As a user I want to use cross platform applications as much as possible. I use e.g. libreoffice instead of ms office now by choice. This means that the eventual switch away from it will be easier.
- skoskie 5y ago
  I agree with all of your points yet come to the opposite conclusion. Choosing the web means everything I make goes through Google’s hands in one way or another, which irks me. Plus it evolves so quickly that you can’t just make a good product and let it be. I’m learning rust as time allows.
- smackeyacky 5y ago
  Microsoft don't help themselves by making desktop app production very confusing. A huge range of possible GUI frameworks, every one looks like a trap/dead end like Silverlight. Microsofts successful cross platform apps like VSCode and Teams ignore all of them so following suit seems pretty sensible to me.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    Teams is only successful because it's free and integrates with the M365 ecosystem. All its competitors are so much better. It wasn't actually so bad at the start, it was just a poor slack knock-off. (Poor because the visual density is much lower with these oversized chat bubbles) But now they are spending all their dev time cramming so much stuff into it without considering performance that it's become tooslow and cluttered. Now it's a wiki, a file storage thing, a video chat app, an interface to Yammer, not to mention the tons of plugins. Cool idea to have one app that does everything but performance and usability have gone down the drain. It feels very beta to me. Oh and the choices they make are so stupid sometimes. When I decline a meeting it still adds me to its associated chat and pings me for everything that's said in it. Constant distraction and no way to turn off this stupid default.
    - smackeyacky 5y ago
      I would agree Teams itself is a mess. I was just pointing out that Microsoft have successful apps across 3 different operating systems, and neither of them use Microsoft GUI frameworks. I don't see why I should use a Microsoft GUI any more either. Once you stop using their libraries, you no longer need their OS at all. Pretty strange behaviour from MS if you ask me, encouraging your users to get off their systems.
- bmacho 5y ago
  > It's now a viable competitor for enterprise applications, both because web is getting more feature rich and these days has pretty much anything you need, and because desktop is getting worse with anti-features and jank. It's a sad state of affairs but that's where we are. Actually web is getting worse with anti-features and jank as well.
- smm11 5y ago
  Apple's operating system 8.6 nailed the desktop. Everything since has been a disaster.
rthomas6 5y ago
What is wrong with Linux nowadays? I've used it as my main driver for long enough that I can't see the big problems that are preventing everyone from switching. Like, it seems easier than even WSL to me. Beginner friendly distos seem to have solved the package management problem, and there are adequate desktop environments, office suites, browsers, gaming, and everything else. If a person has good hardware compatibility, in the face of the bloated pushyess of Windows 11, why not use Linux? What am I missing?
- criddell 5y ago
  There's a lot of software not on Linux or that doesn't run well on Linux. People pick their OS based on what software they want to run, not the other way around. And they pick from what they can buy. Go into a BestBuy and you can choose between Windows machines, Apple machines, and a few Chromebooks. If you did manage to buy a Linux machine somewhere, you are going to be disappointed when you go back into that BestBuy to get a printer or webcam or some other accessory and the box says "compatible with macOS and Windows".
  - tcmart14 5y ago
    But the issue here is not inherently with Linux. It is more so with vendors of printers making drivers. If Brother feels that there are enough people running Linux and want to own a Brother printer, they will make the driver. Maybe that is the issue we need solve, or at least the part we need to be vocal about. If brother gets a significant number of emails asking for linux support, perhaps they will finally make linux a first class citizen?
    - freeone3000 5y ago
      I think it's interesting you chose Brother here, because Linux support is a first class citizen -- they not only offer CUPS drivers, they offer Deb and RPM packages that also set up dependencies.
      - tcmart14 5y ago
DrBazza 5y ago
> Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares. > Acknowledging this is the first step. The second is figuring out what would make them care or how to remove them so someone who does care can take over. That's a much harder thing to do. There's the challenge. Who cared about "hardware"? Jony Ive and Jobs perhaps? Who cares about OS performance? Linus Torvalds. I'm sure there are MS insiders who we don't know. Who cares about the desktop? ..... The funny thing is the desktop was a solved problem with the mother-of-all-demos, and everything else is sugar on top, and yet there has to be this continual awful rebranding. Ok we went from VGA, to HD, to 4k HDR, but the underlying design and UI doesn't have to change so poorly each time.

hackerfromthefu 5y ago

As a developer I want to implement everything possible on the web platform. It's now a viable competitor for enterprise applications, both because web is getting more feature rich and these days has pretty much anything you need, and because desktop is getting worse with anti-features and jank. It's a sad state of affairs but that's where we are. As a user I want to use cross platform applications as much as possible. I use e.g. libreoffice instead of ms office now by choice. This means that the eventual switch away from it will be easier.

skoskie 5y ago
I agree with all of your points yet come to the opposite conclusion. Choosing the web means everything I make goes through Google’s hands in one way or another, which irks me. Plus it evolves so quickly that you can’t just make a good product and let it be. I’m learning rust as time allows.
smackeyacky 5y ago
Microsoft don't help themselves by making desktop app production very confusing. A huge range of possible GUI frameworks, every one looks like a trap/dead end like Silverlight. Microsofts successful cross platform apps like VSCode and Teams ignore all of them so following suit seems pretty sensible to me.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Teams is only successful because it's free and integrates with the M365 ecosystem. All its competitors are so much better. It wasn't actually so bad at the start, it was just a poor slack knock-off. (Poor because the visual density is much lower with these oversized chat bubbles) But now they are spending all their dev time cramming so much stuff into it without considering performance that it's become tooslow and cluttered. Now it's a wiki, a file storage thing, a video chat app, an interface to Yammer, not to mention the tons of plugins. Cool idea to have one app that does everything but performance and usability have gone down the drain. It feels very beta to me. Oh and the choices they make are so stupid sometimes. When I decline a meeting it still adds me to its associated chat and pings me for everything that's said in it. Constant distraction and no way to turn off this stupid default.
  - smackeyacky 5y ago
    I would agree Teams itself is a mess. I was just pointing out that Microsoft have successful apps across 3 different operating systems, and neither of them use Microsoft GUI frameworks. I don't see why I should use a Microsoft GUI any more either. Once you stop using their libraries, you no longer need their OS at all. Pretty strange behaviour from MS if you ask me, encouraging your users to get off their systems.
bmacho 5y ago
> It's now a viable competitor for enterprise applications, both because web is getting more feature rich and these days has pretty much anything you need, and because desktop is getting worse with anti-features and jank. It's a sad state of affairs but that's where we are. Actually web is getting worse with anti-features and jank as well.
smm11 5y ago
Apple's operating system 8.6 nailed the desktop. Everything since has been a disaster.

rthomas6 5y ago

What is wrong with Linux nowadays? I've used it as my main driver for long enough that I can't see the big problems that are preventing everyone from switching. Like, it seems easier than even WSL to me. Beginner friendly distos seem to have solved the package management problem, and there are adequate desktop environments, office suites, browsers, gaming, and everything else. If a person has good hardware compatibility, in the face of the bloated pushyess of Windows 11, why not use Linux? What am I missing?

criddell 5y ago
There's a lot of software not on Linux or that doesn't run well on Linux. People pick their OS based on what software they want to run, not the other way around. And they pick from what they can buy. Go into a BestBuy and you can choose between Windows machines, Apple machines, and a few Chromebooks. If you did manage to buy a Linux machine somewhere, you are going to be disappointed when you go back into that BestBuy to get a printer or webcam or some other accessory and the box says "compatible with macOS and Windows".
- tcmart14 5y ago
  But the issue here is not inherently with Linux. It is more so with vendors of printers making drivers. If Brother feels that there are enough people running Linux and want to own a Brother printer, they will make the driver. Maybe that is the issue we need solve, or at least the part we need to be vocal about. If brother gets a significant number of emails asking for linux support, perhaps they will finally make linux a first class citizen?
  - freeone3000 5y ago
    I think it's interesting you chose Brother here, because Linux support is a first class citizen -- they not only offer CUPS drivers, they offer Deb and RPM packages that also set up dependencies.
    - tcmart14 5y ago

DrBazza 5y ago

> Nobody at Microsoft who has decision-making authority actually cares. > Acknowledging this is the first step. The second is figuring out what would make them care or how to remove them so someone who does care can take over. That's a much harder thing to do. There's the challenge. Who cared about "hardware"? Jony Ive and Jobs perhaps? Who cares about OS performance? Linus Torvalds. I'm sure there are MS insiders who we don't know. Who cares about the desktop? ..... The funny thing is the desktop was a solved problem with the mother-of-all-demos, and everything else is sugar on top, and yet there has to be this continual awful rebranding. Ok we went from VGA, to HD, to 4k HDR, but the underlying design and UI doesn't have to change so poorly each time.