7 ms·

The fact that masks aren't mandatory in public in the US is honestly unbelievable to me. Somehow the media has managed to convince the public that Covid is not

The fact that masks aren't mandatory in public in the US is honestly unbelievable to me. Somehow the media has managed to convince the public that Covid is not as big a deal as it was in the beginning, but the research shows the exact opposite. I think we're going to have a day of reckoning when a wave of kids become old enough to work and are completely unproductive due to long haul COVID.

nradov 5y ago
You've got to be kidding. The virus is here to stay. I am absolutely unwilling to spend the rest of my life wearing a mask, regardless of the consequences. Most Americans feel the same way. There's more to life than avoiding a minor respiratory virus.
dataflow 5y ago
> but the research shows the exact opposite Links would be appreciated. By all accounts I've heard, for vaccinated people, Omicron (the dominant variant) is like a mild cold.
- jimnotgym 5y ago
  I have had Covid twice. Omicron was more like severe flu than a cold for me and my wife. In several ways it is quite unlike either a cold or flu. The brainfog, the feeling that one is ok one part of the day followed by a wave of fatigue were both quite dissimilar to cold and flu.
  - dataflow 5y ago
    Can I ask if you ever got vaccinated? (The claim was not about unvaccinated folks.)
    - jimnotgym 5y ago
      I was double vaccinated. My wife was triple vaccinated.
      - dataflow 5y ago
        Wow, interesting. That's the first time I'm hearing about this; it's great to know. Thanks! Hopefully you've been able to recover to normal by now?
        jimnotgym 5y ago
        Unfortunately not. From my first infection I have fatigue, sleep apneoa, shortness of breath, brain fog and palpitations still. My wife had not had Covid previously is a keen runner and has just cancelled a race 3 months after 'recovery' because she can no longer run those distances. Yet because 'some guy we know' had it easy, there are a bunch of people hanging around internet forums willing to refute all talk of covid being serious.
        dataflow 5y ago
        > Unfortunately not. From my first infection I have fatigue, sleep apneoa, shortness of breath, brain fog and palpitations still. My wife had not had Covid previously is a keen runner and has just cancelled a race 3 months after 'recovery' because she can no longer run those distances. Sorry to hear that. Hope you end up finding a way to recover. > Yet because 'some guy we know' had it easy I have no idea where you're pulling this from. I wasn't citing you an anecdote I gathered from "some guy I know". I was citing facts that have been circulating all over the news for a while now, along with the relevant hospitalization statistics. And I hadn't heard anything to the contrary. Here's [1] one link: > In fully vaccinated and/or boosted people, omicron symptoms tend to be mild. In unvaccinated people, symptoms may be quite severe, possibly leading to hospitalization or even death. [1] https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-information/omicron-variant https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-information/...
        jimnotgym 5y ago
        > In fully vaccinated and/or boosted people, omicron symptoms tend to be mild. Mild in comparison to other strains of Covid, yes. Tends not to require hospitalisation and has a lower risk of death. It doesn't say 'mild compared to a cold' though. I think it its too early for a study too be able to suggest that Omicron changed the possibility of developing long Covid either. In regards to identifying yourself as one of the people I was targeting in my comment about 'some guy', I will put that down to a guilty concience.
- simondotau 5y ago
  > …Omicron (the dominant variant) is like a mild cold. Omicron appears mild in the statistics because by the time it hit western countries like the US and UK, there was almost nobody left who hasn’t either been vaccinated or exposed to a prior variant, or both. Countries with low vaccination rates and low prior exposure rates are seeing severity of outcome with Omicron that is comparable to prior variants. https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1503420660869214213?s=21 https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1503420660869214213?...
  - dataflow 5y ago
    > Countries with low vaccination rates and low prior exposure rates How is that relevant when the complaint is specifically about how "masks aren't mandatory in public in the US"? Vaccines have been freely available in the US for a year, yet the US should mandate masks because other countries have low vaccination rates?
    - simondotau 5y ago
      I don’t know what point you’re trying to make, but I’m not advocating for mask mandates. In fact I disagree with them. Mask mandates were a highly imperfect but prudent policy measure prior to widespread deployment of effective vaccines. Now they are pointless and arguably counter-productive. People who have specific concerns about COVID and want to protect themselves (or others) should be encouraged to wear an N95 mask. Cloth and surgical masks should no longer be treated as a valid medical choice.
- anonymouswacker 5y ago
  I didn't sign up to be a lab rat, and it was a 3 day head cold when I caught Omicron on NYE. But I also paid close attention to the independent research and followed the advice of my doctors to improve my health (as measured by Vitamin D in this case).
- jimnotgym 5y ago
  I am concerned that you just a) demanded hard proof b) presented an anecdote as contradictory evidence I think you should probably hold yourself to the same standards that you hold others
simondotau 5y ago
N95 masks work. Well designed, well fitted, correctly worn, hygienically cleaned cloth masks probably work okay, though good evidence of this is still limited and based largely upon assumptions. From my own observations, the overwhelming majority of people are wearing a mask of poor quality and/or in a manner which the scientific consensus couldn't possibly agree was effective. And I doubt most people are washing them with soap and water every single day. If we're not going to mandate an effective mask, I honestly don't see what the point of mandates are. It makes as much sense to me as mandating seatbelts and accepting a knitted scarf as an acceptable form of seatbelt.
- jimmygrapes 5y ago
- tomxor 5y ago
  There was a paper posted on HN ages ago now, studying the mechanism by which masks were effective against covid... they argued it was essentially due to maintaining a higher temperature and humidity in the nose and throat. It's well known that rhinovirus for instance, reproduces more efficiently in cooler environments, so this seems plausible. It's also possible there is more than one mechanism, and that an n95 or equivalent mask with fine enough particulate filter can additionally reduce exposure significantly (initial exposure level also being accepted as having some effect for viruses in general). So you can look down on people with those fabric masks, but possibly not be completely correct. Honestly though... the whole mask wearing thing is more about trends of what is "socially acceptable" than science. I'm not saying there is no value, but that the forces dictating when most people do or do not wear a mask have very little to do with how well informed they are or on the current accepted understanding having changed, and far more to do with what is considered socially acceptable at the present time... so it's hardly surprising no one particularly cares about the type of mask.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    > So you can look down on people with those fabric masks, but possibly not be completely correct. And strapping yourself to your car seat with a knitted scarf might reduce injury risk/severity relative to a person with no seatbelt. That doesn’t mean we should expand the seatbelt mandate to include scarves.
syshum 5y ago
The fact that people believe mandates are good public policy is honestly unbelievable to me. To be clear I not debating the effectiveness of mask but the effectiveness of mask mandates which have shown many many many times to be unenforceable and ineffective. That said even if they were shown to be effective I would still oppose them on basis human rights ground. I do not believe it is the proper role of government in general, and certainly not the US Federal government to mandate what I wear when I leave my home. At most that should be a local matter, but even though I would advocate against it in my local government. However is certainly has no constitutional basis under our system of government for the federal government to impose such a mandate
- dylan604 5y ago
  >I would still oppose them on basis human rights ground I hear this as an argument against left and right, but when I ask why it is different from the vaccine requirements for public schools I typically get a "it just is" response. Here's hoping someone might have a better response to why this vaccine is different in that aspect.
  - jdminhbg 5y ago
    Parent is talking about mask mandates, not vaccine mandates.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure that the school vaccine mandates are state mandates, not federal mandates. There are many things that I think are a good idea, but that I oppose the Federal government taking the power to do. I don't object to my state or city taking that same power.
  - procombo 5y ago
    > I typically get a "it just is" response. I doubt that. I couldn't STOP hearing the arguments last year. Not trying to be 'smart', but just believe a minimal effort to understand an opposing view gets you there. > hoping someone might have a better response Regarding required vaccines for grade-school kids at public schools in the U.S.: 1. Aren't actually forced. You can opt out in several ways. 2. The diseases they treat have a much higher death/hospitalization and/or transmissibility rate among children. 3. We better understand the diseases they treat. 4. Approvals for vaccines were not given under emergency order. 5. Meet the CDC's pre-2019 definition of 'vaccine'. 6. Side affects are published, well known, and readily available. That's just off the top of my head. And I assume you and I agree on most things.
_yoqn 5y ago
> "The fact that masks aren't mandatory in public in the US is honestly unbelievable to me" I'm glad you don't run things here. We have a constitutional republic that makes it impossible for the federal government to unilaterally mandate such things as masks and vaccines. Biden tried to mandate vaccines through OSHA but the Supreme Court determined that was an overreach. What kind of masks? Cloth masks are proven to be worthless and only well fitting N95 masks may help prevent infection. I think what's going to happen is COVID will be less and less damaging as time goes on (like all novel diseases) and we will go on to live our lives as free people.
- dylan604 5y ago
  >We have a constitutional republic that makes it impossible for the federal government to unilaterally mandate This isn't the only way the Fed can get things done. For example, the drinking restriction for 21+ is a state level issue strongly encouraged by the Fed. Louisiana tried to hold to 18+ for the longest, but the Fed finally won by threatening to withhold federal funding for highways.
nicoburns 5y ago
I mean, it’s not as big of a deal as it was in the beginning. We have vaccines now which we didn’t have back then and these have dramatically reduced the severity.
screye 5y ago
> masks aren't mandatory in public Masks clearly have a measurable impact on mental health. Given what he know about aerosolization and cloth masks, masks are near useless in public spaces. If we are talking about reducing the populations' micromorts[1] by reducing common freedom, then there are far better things to do. Enforcing helmets for drivers, breathalyzers ($70) as default in cars, banning right-turns on red are all significantly more effective at reducing total deaths than mask enforcement, with much lower costs to a civilization. Similarly, banning certain foods and mandating exercise would massively improve American health outcomes. I find that 'masks for everyone and everything' have become more of a political rallying call driven by hysteria, than a principled outcome focused measure. It reeks of the same blind faith as those who shout 'trust science' while healthy discourse makes up a fundamental pillar of the process of science. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort#:~:text=A%20micromort%20(from%20micro%2D%20and,is%20the%20microprobability%20of%20death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort#:~:text=A%20micromor....
- fnordpiglet 5y ago
  > Masks clearly have a measurable impact on mental health. Bullshit. Citation?
  - screye 5y ago
    Thanks for the thoughtful response. /s Anecdotally, I have yet to meet a single person IRL over 2 years of the pandemic who enjoys wearing masks. It varies from minor inconvenience to a thorn in your side. For one, uncontrolled observational studies show that there is pretty strong correlation between the pandemic and depression. [1] In narrow studies, masks are shown to reduce interpersonal trust [2] , ability to evaluate emotions. [3] and might accelerate cognitive decline in older populations [4] There is an alarming lack of studies directly targeting the mental health impact of masks. I couldn't even find a survey. On one hand, I understand that getting any good self-reported data from the hysterically polarized population is probably futile. I tried to find peer reviewed studies, but I am not a public health / psychiatry professional. On the other hand, silence can be deafening. Tangentially, my trust in peer reviewed medical research has declined sharply over the pandemic. These folks need statistics, a sophisticated understanding of causality, experiment design and variable control. I can see why many of the best healthcare writers exclusively stick to meta-studies instead of individual studies. [1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2770146 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-96500-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-96500-7 [3] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.566886/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.5668... [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8418138/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8418138/
dijonman2 5y ago
I sincerely hope this is satire.
horns4lyfe 5y ago
That last assertion is beyond hysterical.

nradov 5y ago

You've got to be kidding. The virus is here to stay. I am absolutely unwilling to spend the rest of my life wearing a mask, regardless of the consequences. Most Americans feel the same way. There's more to life than avoiding a minor respiratory virus.

dataflow 5y ago

> but the research shows the exact opposite Links would be appreciated. By all accounts I've heard, for vaccinated people, Omicron (the dominant variant) is like a mild cold.

jimnotgym 5y ago
I have had Covid twice. Omicron was more like severe flu than a cold for me and my wife. In several ways it is quite unlike either a cold or flu. The brainfog, the feeling that one is ok one part of the day followed by a wave of fatigue were both quite dissimilar to cold and flu.
- dataflow 5y ago
  Can I ask if you ever got vaccinated? (The claim was not about unvaccinated folks.)
  - jimnotgym 5y ago
    I was double vaccinated. My wife was triple vaccinated.
    - dataflow 5y ago
      Wow, interesting. That's the first time I'm hearing about this; it's great to know. Thanks! Hopefully you've been able to recover to normal by now?
      - jimnotgym 5y ago
        Unfortunately not. From my first infection I have fatigue, sleep apneoa, shortness of breath, brain fog and palpitations still. My wife had not had Covid previously is a keen runner and has just cancelled a race 3 months after 'recovery' because she can no longer run those distances. Yet because 'some guy we know' had it easy, there are a bunch of people hanging around internet forums willing to refute all talk of covid being serious.
        dataflow 5y ago
        > Unfortunately not. From my first infection I have fatigue, sleep apneoa, shortness of breath, brain fog and palpitations still. My wife had not had Covid previously is a keen runner and has just cancelled a race 3 months after 'recovery' because she can no longer run those distances. Sorry to hear that. Hope you end up finding a way to recover. > Yet because 'some guy we know' had it easy I have no idea where you're pulling this from. I wasn't citing you an anecdote I gathered from "some guy I know". I was citing facts that have been circulating all over the news for a while now, along with the relevant hospitalization statistics. And I hadn't heard anything to the contrary. Here's [1] one link: > In fully vaccinated and/or boosted people, omicron symptoms tend to be mild. In unvaccinated people, symptoms may be quite severe, possibly leading to hospitalization or even death. [1] https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-information/omicron-variant https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-information/...
        jimnotgym 5y ago
        > In fully vaccinated and/or boosted people, omicron symptoms tend to be mild. Mild in comparison to other strains of Covid, yes. Tends not to require hospitalisation and has a lower risk of death. It doesn't say 'mild compared to a cold' though. I think it its too early for a study too be able to suggest that Omicron changed the possibility of developing long Covid either. In regards to identifying yourself as one of the people I was targeting in my comment about 'some guy', I will put that down to a guilty concience.
simondotau 5y ago
> …Omicron (the dominant variant) is like a mild cold. Omicron appears mild in the statistics because by the time it hit western countries like the US and UK, there was almost nobody left who hasn’t either been vaccinated or exposed to a prior variant, or both. Countries with low vaccination rates and low prior exposure rates are seeing severity of outcome with Omicron that is comparable to prior variants. https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1503420660869214213?s=21 https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1503420660869214213?...
- dataflow 5y ago
  > Countries with low vaccination rates and low prior exposure rates How is that relevant when the complaint is specifically about how "masks aren't mandatory in public in the US"? Vaccines have been freely available in the US for a year, yet the US should mandate masks because other countries have low vaccination rates?
  - simondotau 5y ago
    I don’t know what point you’re trying to make, but I’m not advocating for mask mandates. In fact I disagree with them. Mask mandates were a highly imperfect but prudent policy measure prior to widespread deployment of effective vaccines. Now they are pointless and arguably counter-productive. People who have specific concerns about COVID and want to protect themselves (or others) should be encouraged to wear an N95 mask. Cloth and surgical masks should no longer be treated as a valid medical choice.
anonymouswacker 5y ago
I didn't sign up to be a lab rat, and it was a 3 day head cold when I caught Omicron on NYE. But I also paid close attention to the independent research and followed the advice of my doctors to improve my health (as measured by Vitamin D in this case).
jimnotgym 5y ago
I am concerned that you just a) demanded hard proof b) presented an anecdote as contradictory evidence I think you should probably hold yourself to the same standards that you hold others

simondotau 5y ago

N95 masks work. Well designed, well fitted, correctly worn, hygienically cleaned cloth masks probably work okay, though good evidence of this is still limited and based largely upon assumptions. From my own observations, the overwhelming majority of people are wearing a mask of poor quality and/or in a manner which the scientific consensus couldn't possibly agree was effective. And I doubt most people are washing them with soap and water every single day. If we're not going to mandate an effective mask, I honestly don't see what the point of mandates are. It makes as much sense to me as mandating seatbelts and accepting a knitted scarf as an acceptable form of seatbelt.

jimmygrapes 5y ago
tomxor 5y ago
There was a paper posted on HN ages ago now, studying the mechanism by which masks were effective against covid... they argued it was essentially due to maintaining a higher temperature and humidity in the nose and throat. It's well known that rhinovirus for instance, reproduces more efficiently in cooler environments, so this seems plausible. It's also possible there is more than one mechanism, and that an n95 or equivalent mask with fine enough particulate filter can additionally reduce exposure significantly (initial exposure level also being accepted as having some effect for viruses in general). So you can look down on people with those fabric masks, but possibly not be completely correct. Honestly though... the whole mask wearing thing is more about trends of what is "socially acceptable" than science. I'm not saying there is no value, but that the forces dictating when most people do or do not wear a mask have very little to do with how well informed they are or on the current accepted understanding having changed, and far more to do with what is considered socially acceptable at the present time... so it's hardly surprising no one particularly cares about the type of mask.
- simondotau 5y ago
  > So you can look down on people with those fabric masks, but possibly not be completely correct. And strapping yourself to your car seat with a knitted scarf might reduce injury risk/severity relative to a person with no seatbelt. That doesn’t mean we should expand the seatbelt mandate to include scarves.

syshum 5y ago

The fact that people believe mandates are good public policy is honestly unbelievable to me. To be clear I not debating the effectiveness of mask but the effectiveness of mask mandates which have shown many many many times to be unenforceable and ineffective. That said even if they were shown to be effective I would still oppose them on basis human rights ground. I do not believe it is the proper role of government in general, and certainly not the US Federal government to mandate what I wear when I leave my home. At most that should be a local matter, but even though I would advocate against it in my local government. However is certainly has no constitutional basis under our system of government for the federal government to impose such a mandate

dylan604 5y ago
>I would still oppose them on basis human rights ground I hear this as an argument against left and right, but when I ask why it is different from the vaccine requirements for public schools I typically get a "it just is" response. Here's hoping someone might have a better response to why this vaccine is different in that aspect.
- jdminhbg 5y ago
  Parent is talking about mask mandates, not vaccine mandates.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure that the school vaccine mandates are state mandates, not federal mandates. There are many things that I think are a good idea, but that I oppose the Federal government taking the power to do. I don't object to my state or city taking that same power.
- procombo 5y ago
  > I typically get a "it just is" response. I doubt that. I couldn't STOP hearing the arguments last year. Not trying to be 'smart', but just believe a minimal effort to understand an opposing view gets you there. > hoping someone might have a better response Regarding required vaccines for grade-school kids at public schools in the U.S.: 1. Aren't actually forced. You can opt out in several ways. 2. The diseases they treat have a much higher death/hospitalization and/or transmissibility rate among children. 3. We better understand the diseases they treat. 4. Approvals for vaccines were not given under emergency order. 5. Meet the CDC's pre-2019 definition of 'vaccine'. 6. Side affects are published, well known, and readily available. That's just off the top of my head. And I assume you and I agree on most things.

_yoqn 5y ago

> "The fact that masks aren't mandatory in public in the US is honestly unbelievable to me" I'm glad you don't run things here. We have a constitutional republic that makes it impossible for the federal government to unilaterally mandate such things as masks and vaccines. Biden tried to mandate vaccines through OSHA but the Supreme Court determined that was an overreach. What kind of masks? Cloth masks are proven to be worthless and only well fitting N95 masks may help prevent infection. I think what's going to happen is COVID will be less and less damaging as time goes on (like all novel diseases) and we will go on to live our lives as free people.

dylan604 5y ago
>We have a constitutional republic that makes it impossible for the federal government to unilaterally mandate This isn't the only way the Fed can get things done. For example, the drinking restriction for 21+ is a state level issue strongly encouraged by the Fed. Louisiana tried to hold to 18+ for the longest, but the Fed finally won by threatening to withhold federal funding for highways.

nicoburns 5y ago

I mean, it’s not as big of a deal as it was in the beginning. We have vaccines now which we didn’t have back then and these have dramatically reduced the severity.

screye 5y ago

> masks aren't mandatory in public Masks clearly have a measurable impact on mental health. Given what he know about aerosolization and cloth masks, masks are near useless in public spaces. If we are talking about reducing the populations' micromorts[1] by reducing common freedom, then there are far better things to do. Enforcing helmets for drivers, breathalyzers ($70) as default in cars, banning right-turns on red are all significantly more effective at reducing total deaths than mask enforcement, with much lower costs to a civilization. Similarly, banning certain foods and mandating exercise would massively improve American health outcomes. I find that 'masks for everyone and everything' have become more of a political rallying call driven by hysteria, than a principled outcome focused measure. It reeks of the same blind faith as those who shout 'trust science' while healthy discourse makes up a fundamental pillar of the process of science. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort#:~:text=A%20micromort%20(from%20micro%2D%20and,is%20the%20microprobability%20of%20death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort#:~:text=A%20micromor....

fnordpiglet 5y ago
> Masks clearly have a measurable impact on mental health. Bullshit. Citation?
- screye 5y ago
  Thanks for the thoughtful response. /s Anecdotally, I have yet to meet a single person IRL over 2 years of the pandemic who enjoys wearing masks. It varies from minor inconvenience to a thorn in your side. For one, uncontrolled observational studies show that there is pretty strong correlation between the pandemic and depression. [1] In narrow studies, masks are shown to reduce interpersonal trust [2] , ability to evaluate emotions. [3] and might accelerate cognitive decline in older populations [4] There is an alarming lack of studies directly targeting the mental health impact of masks. I couldn't even find a survey. On one hand, I understand that getting any good self-reported data from the hysterically polarized population is probably futile. I tried to find peer reviewed studies, but I am not a public health / psychiatry professional. On the other hand, silence can be deafening. Tangentially, my trust in peer reviewed medical research has declined sharply over the pandemic. These folks need statistics, a sophisticated understanding of causality, experiment design and variable control. I can see why many of the best healthcare writers exclusively stick to meta-studies instead of individual studies. [1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2770146 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... [2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-96500-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-96500-7 [3] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.566886/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.5668... [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8418138/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8418138/

dijonman2 5y ago

I sincerely hope this is satire.

horns4lyfe 5y ago

That last assertion is beyond hysterical.