5 ms·

Fascism strikes me as the politics of the brain stem. To the extent that it has an ideology at all it tends to be explicitly anti-rational and obsessed with pow

by api 5y ago

Fascism strikes me as the politics of the brain stem. To the extent that it has an ideology at all it tends to be explicitly anti-rational and obsessed with power, hierarchy, and mystical destiny. I wonder if it's kind of a postmodern version of the old school militant theocratic monarchy. Like a theocracy without god, or without a coherent religious doctrine. I know that postmodernist thought post-dated fascism but the fascist aesthetic strikes me as very postmodern. Ideas are tools for power. Nothing is true, only power.

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
IMO Nietzsche was proto-Pomo and Heidegger was definitely even closer, the latter being coterminous with classical fascism (and an initially enthusiastic card carrying member of that German party) in addition to being somewhat rehabilitated by Satre after the war.
michannne 5y ago
I liken far left extremism to descending from obsessive generalization, and far right extremism descending from obsessive categorization - from the latter of which emerges hierarchies, divisions based on things like race or genetics, and pissing contests based on labels.
- donatj 5y ago
  > pissing contests based on labels I'm getting a lot of that from both sides.
  - michannne 5y ago
    Intersectionality paradoxically requires obsessive categorization while being promoted by those who are obsessive generalists
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      I don't think you have a strong grasp on what leftists believe.
      - michannne 5y ago
        Rather than leaving it up to mystic interpretation, can you point out what is wrong with the sentiment "Intersectionality requires obsessive categorization"? I assume this is what you're talking about given the parent comment is strictly about far left extremism
        beaconstudios 5y ago
        Intersectionality is just about how people can be oppressed along different lines simultaneously, and how rather than having separate feminist, black rights, trans rights movements they should be working together across those lines. Intersectionality or leftists or whatever didn't invent the categories, it's about identifying the way society mistreats people based on categories. I'm also not sure what you mean about leftism being defined by "obsessive generalising". Being somewhat familiar with left wing theory (Marxism, anarchism and postmodernism) I just don't see it - left theories have nothing to do with generalising people and everything to do with understanding socioeconomic systems. Edit: also intersectional theory is about how different social categories play off each other, ie how being black and trans is different from being white and trans.
        michannne 5y ago
        On intersectionality: I'm not insinuating that intersectionalists are creating the categories, only that they need, and heavily leverage those categories in order to achieve the goals of intersectionality. I don't think you're disagreeing with me on this. On obsessive generalization: You are approaching it from a purely economic perspective. I think it's disingenous to ignore the social goals of leftist theory, which are firmly rooted in removing the class concept entirely - obsessive generalization.
        5y ago
    - donatj 5y ago
      I'd be curious to understand what you mean by that. From what I've seen/understood the far left is very intent on categorizing, separating, and forcing "equality" upon.
      - michannne 5y ago
        I mean, you just answered your own question. The far left, and I don't mean just the "American-brand" of it, is very much focused on removing the categorization of individual identity - dismantling the concepts of race, sex, background, belief, nationality, etc. By removing those categories, the aim is to resolve the discrimination inherent in systems that inevitably have some bias towards individuals based on those characteristics, and ultimately make it infeasible to establish a hierarchy of any kind. Paradoxically, in order to do so, the far left must lean heavily into categorization to "remedy" the remnants of injustice that have been levied on groups of people and level the playing field.
        saila 5y ago
        There's nothing paradoxical going on here. When people are oppressed via categorization, it's only natural to embrace that categorization to reduce the stigma and turn it into a source of social and/or political power. It seems to me that the left, idealistically speaking, is intent on removing forced categorization by others. You would be hard pressed find anyone who is trying to remove all individual distinctions, and if you did, that person would be an outlier. On the contrary, the left, again idealistically, seems to embrace differences, just not those that are imposed and used as a rationale for discrimination. In my experience, those who go on about "freedom" are usually the most intolerant of individual differences. How about that for irony?
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      That's not a paradox. Thats like saying fire departments are obsessed with categorizing houses into 'burning vs not burning' because fire departments require burning houses. I thought they were against fires? Why are they always asking me if my house is on fire or contains flammable material? If they just stopped bringing it up then the fires would put themselves out.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
trhway 5y ago
>Fascism strikes me as the politics of the brain stem. not surprisingly that German's back then and the today's Russian fascism (which is closer to German Nazism than to Italian fascism) each appeared after a decade of economic and political disorder and were precipitated by a terroristic acts after which tired and scared people happily clang to the promise of order and stability by a "strong hand". Germany - military defeat and crash of empire, the decade of disorder, the burn of Reichstag leads to Hitler taking total power, a decade of tightening of all political screws and huge nationalistic "master race" propaganda, directly appealing to the brain stem and thus supported by population, culminate in genocidal (wrt. Jews and Slavic) war. Russia - military defeat (Cold War and Afghanistan) and crash of empire, the decade of disorder, the multiple apartment building by FSB in September of 1999 leads to Putin taking total power, 2 decades of tightening of all political screws and huge nationalistic "master nation" ("Great Russia chauvinism") propaganda, the same way directly appealing to the brain stem and thus supported by population, culminate in the genocidal war against Ukrainians (UN genocide definition https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml). If history is any guide there is no other end here except like in WWII - the coalition should take over Russia and completely denazify and demilitarize it like it was done to Germany. Such profound war loss and failure of society and the following rework of country and society is what gets to the population's brain stem. Just beating the military like in WWI isn't enough as it only excites that basic instinct of tribal nationalism.
- totetsu 5y ago
  So maybe its WWIV we should be worrying about..
- type0 5y ago
  What everyone fails to see is that Russiaism isn't the same as Putinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_fascism_(ideology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_fascism_(ideology) In some ways Russia already overshot the Nazi Germany, think about it if Germans in WWII would bomb german speaking austrian cities; this is what we are seeing from Russian military today. Putin want's Kyiv because it's like Jerusalem for him and his crusaders >> Patriarch Kirill of Moscow declared concerning the religious relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church and Ukraine: "Ukraine is not on the periphery of our church. We call Kiev 'the mother of all Russian cities.' For us Kiev is what Jerusalem is for many. Russian Orthodoxy began there, so under no circumstances can we abandon this historical and spiritual relationship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_world#Politicization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_world#Politicization Unfortunately we'll be seeing Put'in not wanting to put'out of Ukraine for a long time
throwaways85989 5y ago
Ideas are the shackles of the neuro-facists (superior intelligence should get away with all things) for the stupid. To not accept any concept or idea, but that of power, could be interpreted as resistance to a eternally explained away opening scissor of redistributed wealth in a society. Take also the tendency of intelligence to produce ever less scientific break-troughs producing surplus for all and ever more parasitism (Encapsulating companies predating on established industries), a not "hackable" aka anti-intellectual resistance might be all that remains. Parasitism is also a large "topic" in fascism, be it redistributing parasitism (left bureaucracy), lawful parasitism ( citizens exploited by law-constellations) or plain anti-semitism, which todays miracolously onaires escaped - for now. Cough* social engineering cough for the rescue. Another large topic is "walling off" against the "stranger". As the unlearned are in a much harsher competition against the other unlearned, a walled of society to reduce that competition is preferred. Also a recurring topic, is past injustice, which justifies current and future injustices, perpetrated. It really is just a falling apart of any semblance of intellectual problem solving, into a tribal mindset, taken for a ride by a miserable counter-elite.
pram 5y ago
I think it was extremely modernist, personally. The narrative, grandeur and mystical destiny make it more modernist than post-modernist. Like a lot of the late 19th/early 20th century ideologies, civilization was inevitably and imminently heading towards the eschaton. Society had to be reformed and restructured to bring about this glorious material utopia. It’s definitely about feelings and aesthetics, rather than economic or rational concerns though. You saw similar constructions in fringe communist regimes (Romania, North Korea)

by api 5y ago

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago

IMO Nietzsche was proto-Pomo and Heidegger was definitely even closer, the latter being coterminous with classical fascism (and an initially enthusiastic card carrying member of that German party) in addition to being somewhat rehabilitated by Satre after the war.

michannne 5y ago

I liken far left extremism to descending from obsessive generalization, and far right extremism descending from obsessive categorization - from the latter of which emerges hierarchies, divisions based on things like race or genetics, and pissing contests based on labels.

donatj 5y ago
> pissing contests based on labels I'm getting a lot of that from both sides.
- michannne 5y ago
  Intersectionality paradoxically requires obsessive categorization while being promoted by those who are obsessive generalists
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    I don't think you have a strong grasp on what leftists believe.
    - michannne 5y ago
      Rather than leaving it up to mystic interpretation, can you point out what is wrong with the sentiment "Intersectionality requires obsessive categorization"? I assume this is what you're talking about given the parent comment is strictly about far left extremism
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        Intersectionality is just about how people can be oppressed along different lines simultaneously, and how rather than having separate feminist, black rights, trans rights movements they should be working together across those lines. Intersectionality or leftists or whatever didn't invent the categories, it's about identifying the way society mistreats people based on categories. I'm also not sure what you mean about leftism being defined by "obsessive generalising". Being somewhat familiar with left wing theory (Marxism, anarchism and postmodernism) I just don't see it - left theories have nothing to do with generalising people and everything to do with understanding socioeconomic systems. Edit: also intersectional theory is about how different social categories play off each other, ie how being black and trans is different from being white and trans.
        michannne 5y ago
        On intersectionality: I'm not insinuating that intersectionalists are creating the categories, only that they need, and heavily leverage those categories in order to achieve the goals of intersectionality. I don't think you're disagreeing with me on this. On obsessive generalization: You are approaching it from a purely economic perspective. I think it's disingenous to ignore the social goals of leftist theory, which are firmly rooted in removing the class concept entirely - obsessive generalization.
        5y ago
  - donatj 5y ago
    I'd be curious to understand what you mean by that. From what I've seen/understood the far left is very intent on categorizing, separating, and forcing "equality" upon.
    - michannne 5y ago
      I mean, you just answered your own question. The far left, and I don't mean just the "American-brand" of it, is very much focused on removing the categorization of individual identity - dismantling the concepts of race, sex, background, belief, nationality, etc. By removing those categories, the aim is to resolve the discrimination inherent in systems that inevitably have some bias towards individuals based on those characteristics, and ultimately make it infeasible to establish a hierarchy of any kind. Paradoxically, in order to do so, the far left must lean heavily into categorization to "remedy" the remnants of injustice that have been levied on groups of people and level the playing field.
      - saila 5y ago
        There's nothing paradoxical going on here. When people are oppressed via categorization, it's only natural to embrace that categorization to reduce the stigma and turn it into a source of social and/or political power. It seems to me that the left, idealistically speaking, is intent on removing forced categorization by others. You would be hard pressed find anyone who is trying to remove all individual distinctions, and if you did, that person would be an outlier. On the contrary, the left, again idealistically, seems to embrace differences, just not those that are imposed and used as a rationale for discrimination. In my experience, those who go on about "freedom" are usually the most intolerant of individual differences. How about that for irony?
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    That's not a paradox. Thats like saying fire departments are obsessed with categorizing houses into 'burning vs not burning' because fire departments require burning houses. I thought they were against fires? Why are they always asking me if my house is on fire or contains flammable material? If they just stopped bringing it up then the fires would put themselves out.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

trhway 5y ago

>Fascism strikes me as the politics of the brain stem. not surprisingly that German's back then and the today's Russian fascism (which is closer to German Nazism than to Italian fascism) each appeared after a decade of economic and political disorder and were precipitated by a terroristic acts after which tired and scared people happily clang to the promise of order and stability by a "strong hand". Germany - military defeat and crash of empire, the decade of disorder, the burn of Reichstag leads to Hitler taking total power, a decade of tightening of all political screws and huge nationalistic "master race" propaganda, directly appealing to the brain stem and thus supported by population, culminate in genocidal (wrt. Jews and Slavic) war. Russia - military defeat (Cold War and Afghanistan) and crash of empire, the decade of disorder, the multiple apartment building by FSB in September of 1999 leads to Putin taking total power, 2 decades of tightening of all political screws and huge nationalistic "master nation" ("Great Russia chauvinism") propaganda, the same way directly appealing to the brain stem and thus supported by population, culminate in the genocidal war against Ukrainians (UN genocide definition https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml). If history is any guide there is no other end here except like in WWII - the coalition should take over Russia and completely denazify and demilitarize it like it was done to Germany. Such profound war loss and failure of society and the following rework of country and society is what gets to the population's brain stem. Just beating the military like in WWI isn't enough as it only excites that basic instinct of tribal nationalism.

totetsu 5y ago
So maybe its WWIV we should be worrying about..
type0 5y ago
What everyone fails to see is that Russiaism isn't the same as Putinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_fascism_(ideology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_fascism_(ideology) In some ways Russia already overshot the Nazi Germany, think about it if Germans in WWII would bomb german speaking austrian cities; this is what we are seeing from Russian military today. Putin want's Kyiv because it's like Jerusalem for him and his crusaders >> Patriarch Kirill of Moscow declared concerning the religious relationship between the Russian Orthodox Church and Ukraine: "Ukraine is not on the periphery of our church. We call Kiev 'the mother of all Russian cities.' For us Kiev is what Jerusalem is for many. Russian Orthodoxy began there, so under no circumstances can we abandon this historical and spiritual relationship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_world#Politicization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_world#Politicization Unfortunately we'll be seeing Put'in not wanting to put'out of Ukraine for a long time

throwaways85989 5y ago

Ideas are the shackles of the neuro-facists (superior intelligence should get away with all things) for the stupid. To not accept any concept or idea, but that of power, could be interpreted as resistance to a eternally explained away opening scissor of redistributed wealth in a society. Take also the tendency of intelligence to produce ever less scientific break-troughs producing surplus for all and ever more parasitism (Encapsulating companies predating on established industries), a not "hackable" aka anti-intellectual resistance might be all that remains. Parasitism is also a large "topic" in fascism, be it redistributing parasitism (left bureaucracy), lawful parasitism ( citizens exploited by law-constellations) or plain anti-semitism, which todays miracolously onaires escaped - for now. Cough* social engineering cough for the rescue. Another large topic is "walling off" against the "stranger". As the unlearned are in a much harsher competition against the other unlearned, a walled of society to reduce that competition is preferred. Also a recurring topic, is past injustice, which justifies current and future injustices, perpetrated. It really is just a falling apart of any semblance of intellectual problem solving, into a tribal mindset, taken for a ride by a miserable counter-elite.

pram 5y ago

I think it was extremely modernist, personally. The narrative, grandeur and mystical destiny make it more modernist than post-modernist. Like a lot of the late 19th/early 20th century ideologies, civilization was inevitably and imminently heading towards the eschaton. Society had to be reformed and restructured to bring about this glorious material utopia. It’s definitely about feelings and aesthetics, rather than economic or rational concerns though. You saw similar constructions in fringe communist regimes (Romania, North Korea)