5 ms·

Seems like a pretty unremarkable collection of surface level observations if you ask me

by spywaregorilla 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mgh2 5y ago
Try hiring someone without a degree in healthcare: someone's life is on the line, not some rich man's toy.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Healthcare demonstrates the other extreme of the problem in my experience, where entrance to the field is gatekept by the medical education system to ensure that there's not an over supply of professionals that would put downward pressure on existing salaries.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > Healthcare demonstrates the other extreme of the problem in my experience, where entrance to the field is gatekept by the medical education system to ensure that there's not an over supply of professionals that would put downward pressure on existing salaries. That's not a bad thing (to a point) when the entry-level qualification takes a massive amount of time, intense effort, and money to get; it's very important that they manage it so there's no oversupply. If you don't, then you'll have disasters like US legal education has been.
    - spywaregorilla 5y ago
      Entry level qualifications probably shouldn't require that though; especially money. Society needs a lot of doctors. It doesn't need any english lit PhDs. Not to say the latter isn't without benefit.
- oceanplexian 5y ago
  Lots of people have jobs that put lives on the line, Pilots for example. They don’t need a college degree to do that safely, competently, or legally. The idea that healthcare is somehow a special snowflake is nonsense.
  - mgh2 5y ago
    I think you are digressing from the main point. Most people who devalue education are viewing it from a privileged position (ex: tech). Parents on 3rd world countries know that education is still the safest way to a higher standard of living (not guaranteed though). There are no shortcuts to gain knowledge (degrees, training, self-taught, etc.). It is hard to vet someone if that person has not been through accredited programs - professional scammers can even fool interviewers. Aside from this, there is a big difference: would you trust a doctor to cure you without a medical degree? There is your answer.
    - cthalupa 5y ago
      >Aside from this, there is a big difference: would you trust a doctor to cure you without a medical degree? There is your answer. It depends. I had a recurring issue with pain and numbness in my elbow for a few years. I went to all sorts of well credentialed doctors, and every diagnosis they gave ended up being wrong. The person who cracked the case ended up being a random doctor at a hole in the wall clinic that had been the first person available to get an ear infection checked out. I mentioned my symptoms offhand while we were chatting, and he cracked it in about 3 minutes - nerve damage from leaning my elbow on my standing desk. He had a lot of practical experience with occupational related injuries, including nerve damage from poor fitting safety gear, etc. It wasn't his degree that let him find the root cause of my issue, but practical experience. On the other hand, there's lots of diseases where doctors need to keep up on the latest advancements in research, etc. I don't really know how this works - is it trade journals? Do all doctors in fields like this regularly read them, or papers on NCBI? Does a college degree help here? I don't know. I also don't know if I fundamentally disbelieve that someone couldn't be just as effective in these areas through a more practical learning approach than a college degree, either. But I'm not sure that I believe it, either. Medicine is a big field and not all parts of it - from my experience on the receiving end, at least - seem to require all the same skills to be successful.
- kube-system 5y ago
  Where did you get that impression? There are tons of people in healthcare without a degree. Quite common, even. You can make good money working in healthcare with as little as a certificate.
  - mgh2 5y ago
    Please give examples. This refers to health's decision makers- doctors, nurses, etc. not secretaries
zdragnar 5y ago
The point about not forgiving debt without solving the underlying problem seems to be missing from much of the student debt debate. Though, the most surprising thing to me was needing to provide a privilege statement in order to speak at the college event. How the hell can anyone provide any sort of nuanced insight into the privilege and challenges they faced in a "disclosure"? It reeks of enacting a miniature struggle session to undermine the speaker before they even have a chance to talk.
- boppo1 5y ago
  > It reeks of enacting a miniature struggle session to undermine the speaker before they even have a chance to talk. Maybe the Long March through Institutions was real...
redthrow 5y ago
This could be Sam Altman reacting to the recent article about George Hotz [1] mentioning Sam Altman as actually being a pro status quo figure masquerading as an anti-establishment figure: [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30738763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30738763 It's a poetic mission statement for an endeavor which seems to jive with Hotz’s recognition that such a school must be physical and beautiful. However, scratch away the veneer, Hotz suggests in a recent blog post, and one finds that those behind UATX “are either straight up supporters of Power or naive political children.” He points to Joe Lonsdale, Sam Altman, and Marc Andreessen, all of whom “are very successful in the current system.” “This is not a counter-elite!” Hotz continues. “This is a spin off of the exact same BS that’s everywhere. NGO awards and fake status signaling markers.”
- drewcoo 5y ago
  > a pro status quo figure masquerading as an anti-establishment figure I call those "liberals." /s
ulrashida 5y ago
Got the same impression. The narrative presented indicates the writer has minimal appreciation for what degrees in fields other than their own actually provide. Good luck being able to practice engineering if you haven't got a degree! The licensing bodies for professions won't care a fig about your life experience.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  OTOH, I actually have an engineering degree and I can't build a bridge, a radio, or a robot, despite having looked at all those things during the course. People who can actually do it have done it for a lab or a business, and then get accredited. My impression of the engineering degree is that it's basically a certificate in being able to deep dive into... something. Whether that's actual bridges or financial derivatives or trading systems, a degree basically says you haven't given up on some large pile of math-heavy topics, so an employer should bet on you being able to learn their thing. It's also the case that there isn't enough time to learn a whole business, so really it's testing that you stuck with the introductory parts of a wide variety of techie things.
  - ulrashida 5y ago
    Entirely fair. I've worked as an engineering manager for both professional engineers and non-degreed technicians / technologists. My observation (such as it is) is that the degreed engineers had a stronger framework to be able to connect ideas and learn new skills. On the other hand, technologists were able to do tasks just as well as engineers but had trouble generalizing the concepts. Importantly, the degree (combined with professional guidance) also helps you appreciate the things you don't know. For example, a geotechnical engineer may be perfectly able to assess an abutment or design a blast but they wouldn't certify a dam foundation and would reach out for help in doing so. It's probably worth sharing that I hated my undergraduate education with a burning passion. I've only recently begun to appreciate it more -- turns out those old farts who did the accreditation might have known a thing or two about what you need to know later in your career.
    - 5y ago
derbOac 5y ago
As a former professor I agree. Universities have been around for a long time. They're some of the oldest institutions in contemporary civilization, and they're increasing in importance. They've survived upheavals that overshadow anything in our lifetimes. So I've been skeptical of prediction of its demise. Still, there are serious problems with modern academics and higher education, and the doomsayers have some valid points. So I've thought it's possible. After the pandemic though I wasn't sure so much about their imminent demise anymore. Students really wanted to return due to the social value it provided. It's not like institutions started collapsing. I think it would require holders of wealth to shift in the status markers they value. So far it's still one of the primary ones.

Seems like a pretty unremarkable collection of surface level observations if you ask me

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mgh2 5y ago

Try hiring someone without a degree in healthcare: someone's life is on the line, not some rich man's toy.

anonporridge 5y ago
Healthcare demonstrates the other extreme of the problem in my experience, where entrance to the field is gatekept by the medical education system to ensure that there's not an over supply of professionals that would put downward pressure on existing salaries.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Healthcare demonstrates the other extreme of the problem in my experience, where entrance to the field is gatekept by the medical education system to ensure that there's not an over supply of professionals that would put downward pressure on existing salaries. That's not a bad thing (to a point) when the entry-level qualification takes a massive amount of time, intense effort, and money to get; it's very important that they manage it so there's no oversupply. If you don't, then you'll have disasters like US legal education has been.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    Entry level qualifications probably shouldn't require that though; especially money. Society needs a lot of doctors. It doesn't need any english lit PhDs. Not to say the latter isn't without benefit.
oceanplexian 5y ago
Lots of people have jobs that put lives on the line, Pilots for example. They don’t need a college degree to do that safely, competently, or legally. The idea that healthcare is somehow a special snowflake is nonsense.
- mgh2 5y ago
  I think you are digressing from the main point. Most people who devalue education are viewing it from a privileged position (ex: tech). Parents on 3rd world countries know that education is still the safest way to a higher standard of living (not guaranteed though). There are no shortcuts to gain knowledge (degrees, training, self-taught, etc.). It is hard to vet someone if that person has not been through accredited programs - professional scammers can even fool interviewers. Aside from this, there is a big difference: would you trust a doctor to cure you without a medical degree? There is your answer.
  - cthalupa 5y ago
    >Aside from this, there is a big difference: would you trust a doctor to cure you without a medical degree? There is your answer. It depends. I had a recurring issue with pain and numbness in my elbow for a few years. I went to all sorts of well credentialed doctors, and every diagnosis they gave ended up being wrong. The person who cracked the case ended up being a random doctor at a hole in the wall clinic that had been the first person available to get an ear infection checked out. I mentioned my symptoms offhand while we were chatting, and he cracked it in about 3 minutes - nerve damage from leaning my elbow on my standing desk. He had a lot of practical experience with occupational related injuries, including nerve damage from poor fitting safety gear, etc. It wasn't his degree that let him find the root cause of my issue, but practical experience. On the other hand, there's lots of diseases where doctors need to keep up on the latest advancements in research, etc. I don't really know how this works - is it trade journals? Do all doctors in fields like this regularly read them, or papers on NCBI? Does a college degree help here? I don't know. I also don't know if I fundamentally disbelieve that someone couldn't be just as effective in these areas through a more practical learning approach than a college degree, either. But I'm not sure that I believe it, either. Medicine is a big field and not all parts of it - from my experience on the receiving end, at least - seem to require all the same skills to be successful.
kube-system 5y ago
Where did you get that impression? There are tons of people in healthcare without a degree. Quite common, even. You can make good money working in healthcare with as little as a certificate.
- mgh2 5y ago
  Please give examples. This refers to health's decision makers- doctors, nurses, etc. not secretaries

zdragnar 5y ago

The point about not forgiving debt without solving the underlying problem seems to be missing from much of the student debt debate. Though, the most surprising thing to me was needing to provide a privilege statement in order to speak at the college event. How the hell can anyone provide any sort of nuanced insight into the privilege and challenges they faced in a "disclosure"? It reeks of enacting a miniature struggle session to undermine the speaker before they even have a chance to talk.

boppo1 5y ago
> It reeks of enacting a miniature struggle session to undermine the speaker before they even have a chance to talk. Maybe the Long March through Institutions was real...

redthrow 5y ago

This could be Sam Altman reacting to the recent article about George Hotz [1] mentioning Sam Altman as actually being a pro status quo figure masquerading as an anti-establishment figure: [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30738763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30738763 It's a poetic mission statement for an endeavor which seems to jive with Hotz’s recognition that such a school must be physical and beautiful. However, scratch away the veneer, Hotz suggests in a recent blog post, and one finds that those behind UATX “are either straight up supporters of Power or naive political children.” He points to Joe Lonsdale, Sam Altman, and Marc Andreessen, all of whom “are very successful in the current system.” “This is not a counter-elite!” Hotz continues. “This is a spin off of the exact same BS that’s everywhere. NGO awards and fake status signaling markers.”

drewcoo 5y ago
> a pro status quo figure masquerading as an anti-establishment figure I call those "liberals." /s

ulrashida 5y ago

Got the same impression. The narrative presented indicates the writer has minimal appreciation for what degrees in fields other than their own actually provide. Good luck being able to practice engineering if you haven't got a degree! The licensing bodies for professions won't care a fig about your life experience.

lordnacho 5y ago
OTOH, I actually have an engineering degree and I can't build a bridge, a radio, or a robot, despite having looked at all those things during the course. People who can actually do it have done it for a lab or a business, and then get accredited. My impression of the engineering degree is that it's basically a certificate in being able to deep dive into... something. Whether that's actual bridges or financial derivatives or trading systems, a degree basically says you haven't given up on some large pile of math-heavy topics, so an employer should bet on you being able to learn their thing. It's also the case that there isn't enough time to learn a whole business, so really it's testing that you stuck with the introductory parts of a wide variety of techie things.
- ulrashida 5y ago
  Entirely fair. I've worked as an engineering manager for both professional engineers and non-degreed technicians / technologists. My observation (such as it is) is that the degreed engineers had a stronger framework to be able to connect ideas and learn new skills. On the other hand, technologists were able to do tasks just as well as engineers but had trouble generalizing the concepts. Importantly, the degree (combined with professional guidance) also helps you appreciate the things you don't know. For example, a geotechnical engineer may be perfectly able to assess an abutment or design a blast but they wouldn't certify a dam foundation and would reach out for help in doing so. It's probably worth sharing that I hated my undergraduate education with a burning passion. I've only recently begun to appreciate it more -- turns out those old farts who did the accreditation might have known a thing or two about what you need to know later in your career.
  - 5y ago

derbOac 5y ago

As a former professor I agree. Universities have been around for a long time. They're some of the oldest institutions in contemporary civilization, and they're increasing in importance. They've survived upheavals that overshadow anything in our lifetimes. So I've been skeptical of prediction of its demise. Still, there are serious problems with modern academics and higher education, and the doomsayers have some valid points. So I've thought it's possible. After the pandemic though I wasn't sure so much about their imminent demise anymore. Students really wanted to return due to the social value it provided. It's not like institutions started collapsing. I think it would require holders of wealth to shift in the status markers they value. So far it's still one of the primary ones.