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IMHO, the problem with spying on citizens is that it's a double edged sword. We'd be nuts not to gather useful info on serious violations of law to improve nat
by randcraw 5y ago
IMHO, the problem with spying on citizens is that it's a double edged sword. We'd be nuts not to gather useful info on serious violations of law to improve national security (FBI) or local safety (local police). But abuse of such inherently secret info is difficult to oversee and harder still to effectively regulate.
On one hand, oversight of spying programs always reveals some details about what nfo was gathered, either as dutiful proof of its proper use to the public, or in court cases as part of the chain of evidence. But doing this inevitably reveals something about what info was gathered and how, thereby weakening the future value of that source as people (or perps) learn to mistrust it and take greater pains to protect their sensitive info.
On the other hand, NOT revealing data that was gathered invites its abuse, especially by orgs with minimal oversight (and scruples). Too often, law enforcement sees oversight of their practices as being equally as inimical as the perpetrators they pursue.
I suspect the only way to sustainably manage this dance of mistrust is to change the role of police so that oversight is built into their culture, where they know someone is always watching their back — both in offering support to help them do a sometimes impossible job, as well as in demanding that they not abuse the special authority their job demands. In terms of their access to sensitive info, this must include enforcable strictures on their special access to info that should NOT be shared with others, like the client-servant privacy privileges demanded of lawyers or doctors.
- snarf21 5y agoYour opinion feels a lot like "I don't have anything to hide" kind of argument. We should just not be spying on people without express probable cause. We already have built in tracking for cells phones that people don't seem to realize or care. The other point is that we've seen nothing but continued confirmation that absolute power corrupts absolutely. The police (et al) have shown that they can't be trusted with this power.
- nine_k 5y agoThe poster's point is that even lawfully collected info is sensitive, and the forces that collect it should be structured so that spilling or misusing it would be curbed by checks and balances.
- raxxorrax 5y agoThere hasn't been a check after the illegal surveillance was made public though, so it doesn't exist in reality and it is unlikely to change.
- xanaxagoras 5y ago> We already have built in tracking for cells phones that people don't seem to realize or care. It's in most cars, too.
- afpx 5y agoHow do you get probable cause (say, for a potential terrorist attack) without spying? People organizing mass violence tend to hide their tracks pretty well. Personally, I think the risk of terrorist attacks is pretty low compared to other risks. But, at a certain point it needs to be addressed.
- perfecthjrjth 5y agoThat's what "parallel construction" achieves!!
- pjc50 5y agoIn the case of Jan 6th, people were overtly organizing it on Facebook, and this is gradually showing up in indictments. There's a real problem that nonspecific calls for violence are both free speech and an increasingly normal part of political discourse - "someone should do something about those guys" isn't specific enough to be an actionable threat, but enough of them and they'll get turned into a stochastic terrorism event, where the mass shooter leaves a binder full of "someone should do something about those guys" messages which were his rationale.
- JumpCrisscross 5y agoI suspect the Fourth Amendment debate got sniped by the Defund the Police movement. They have overlap in their bases. But the latter is more radical. That turned the public away from regulating police powers.
- infogulch 5y agoThat seems reasonable, and invites the question of whether it was deliberately planted to relieve the pressure that was building up around the Fourth, because "Defund the Police" is obviously stupid and unsustainable on its face and any reasonable person will realize this eventually.