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I know this is about commercial vehicles, but on a personal note I really wish noncommercial vehicles were far better in accessory mode. Specifically it is comm

I know this is about commercial vehicles, but on a personal note I really wish noncommercial vehicles were far better in accessory mode. Specifically it is common that either the hot, cold, or both HVAC won't function while the engine is off and the vehicle in accessory mode often leaving people idling in high or low weather scenarios (or simply just melting ice on your windshields). I feel like there's far too much focus spent on chastising the sinners and not nearly enough effect spent creating vehicles where the common sense action is not to need to idle. Even hybrids may run their gas engines purely for the HVAC, we have a Prius and depending on the temperate and fan speed, it can kick on the engine even with full hybrid battery. Let me ask this: Where is the article or city report that talks to the commercial drivers and seeks insight into WHY they're idling? Unreasonable time constraints? Cabin temp? Company policies? Let's dig into that. This "burn the witch" stuff never works long term, and we have to seek to make non-idling the rational choice not the enforced one. It minds me a lot of these "cut speeding initiatives." They work, while they're going on, but success has been seen longer term by just re-designing roads to communicate the safe speed (e.g. planting trees, pinchpoints, et al[0]). [0] https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/design-controls/design-speed/speed-reduction-mechanisms/ https://nacto.org/publication/urban-street-design-guide/desi...

ars 5y ago
Non-diesel vehicles don't pollute much if at all while idling. If we could get rid of diesel from commercial vehicles air quality would dramatically improve.
- amluto 5y ago
  Only when warm. Many modern gasoline burning vehicles are extremely stinky when cold. As I understand it, they deliberately run rich when first started to help heat up the catalytic converter, and I wonder if this is a case of optimizing for the wrong thing. EVs are, of course, emission-free when idle. (Although, oddly, at least some Teslas still can’t open or close their windows when in the off-ish state.)
  - LegitShady 5y ago
    My understanding of the cold-rich start was not anything to do with the catalytic converter. Cold air is more dense and contains more oxygen. At the same time, when the engine is cold gasoline is harder to vaporize and doesn't vaporize properly, and also can condense on cold engine parts. Running rich while the engine is cold allows additional gas to offset both of those issues. When the extra un-combusted gasoline passes through, a secondary air injection system allows the fuel to be burned up before reaching the catalytic converter and does heat it up faster, but this is a secondary benefit rather than the primary benefit.
  - theodric 5y ago
    My 23-year-old V12 7 series has electrically heated catalytic converters for this very reason. Thanks to those, according to German regs it qualifies as a ULEV! I think it still stinks at first start. Also, the cats cost two grand each to replace and the car requires a second battery to power them without draining the main starting battery so much that the car won't turn over. That's probably why we don't see more of this...
  - ars 5y ago
    > Only when warm. In that case you should prefer idling, rather than stopping the motor and letting it cool down.
- 2143 5y ago
  The reason for diesels on commercial vehicles is the massive amount of torque they produce low down the rev range. Useful for pulling heavy loads. I think the newer ones with the AdBlue tech prevents the soot from getting out.
  - Godel_unicode 5y ago
    A really good way to generate lots of torque from a stop is an electric motor. You could use a combination of gasoline motors at speed with electric to start to get this same combination.
    - earleybird 5y ago
      As demonstrated by the Koenigsegg Gemera and its use of electric motors and an ICE. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39yEt4R-SU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39yEt4R-SU
    - 2143 5y ago
      Sure I agree electric engines produce even more torque. Just give it a few years for the whole thing to be economically viable and for them to convert their diesel trucks to EV trucks.
      - User23 5y ago
        Hence diesel-electric locomotives. Those things produce serious torque. I wonder if that technology could be usefully adapted to commercial trucks.
        seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        Diesel electric locomotives have a much worse idling problem than diesel ICE vehicles, you can’t just shut the turbine down without consequences, especially in winter, so they just idle for hours. See for example https://www.saferail.ca/blog/2019/7/3/idling-of-diesel-engines-rail-and-reason-the-dumbing-down-of-smartstart https://www.saferail.ca/blog/2019/7/3/idling-of-diesel-engin...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
FateOfNations 5y ago
On quite a few cars, parts of the HVAC system (namely the AC compressor and potentially some of the fans) are mechanically linked to the engine with belts, rather than using electricity.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Indeed. Only electric vehicles and hybrids, some with electric vs belt driven compressors, others with electric driven heat pumps, can run HVAC without the need for an engine running.
- Sebb767 5y ago
  Also, even if they're separate, AC and heating can use a lot of electricity and normal ICE cars usually don't have big batteries. Especially in the winter you'd also need a solid reserve, because the car might be already be discharged due to cold and need more power to get going. Throw in some short range trips and an engine stop automatic and you'll quickly end up with an empty battery, which will reflect very bad on the manufacturer. You could of course add a second battery, but that would add a lot of weight and complexity for a not very noticeable benefit.
ratsforhorses 5y ago
I'm sure that wearing warmer clothing, keeping windows doors closed will keep in the heat, or open the windows and let a breeze cool you in the hot weather...for 10-20mins but ofc depends... Here in Romania unfortunately no such a law, so I ask politely, if refused ask why, if again leave their door open or take their car picture... I feel like a jerk sometimes so have been doing it less... also so many car drivers seem to think they have a right rather than are a blight....¯\_(ツ)_/¯ One thing the bus drivers here said is their electronic system resets if they stop their motor, don't know if it's BS , they seem nice guys just not very educated in ecological stuff , like most Romanians.. Nice to see such an article
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  Neither of the simple solutions given will work in all situations. Cars still get super cold if the temperature is say 0 to -5 Celsius (32 or ~22.5 Fahrenheit). Be in a car with that temperature for an hour+. It’ll be awful for most people.
  - Phenomenit 5y ago
    Maybe a car isn't a house? I mean I understand that it's not practical all the time but your polluting the air by sitting inside your car instead of being in a building with an electric and optimized HVAC.
    - j-bos 5y ago
      While many people could reasonably make the effort to enter a building instead. At least as many, cannot due to their economic circumstances.
    - skinnymuch 5y ago
      I wasn’t thinking of a car as a house substitute. However, not everyone has a safe, warm physical residential home, of any kind, to go to.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
qiqitori 5y ago
I have a 2nd gen Prius. You can generally use the EV button to prevent the motor from turning on. Perhaps unrelated, but when turning on the engine for the first time in a while the Prius will burn gas to heat up the engine. You can prevent that too by pressing the EV button right after pressing the power button. (Or maybe you can hold it down while pressing the power button?) Not sure if it works all the time.
thatfrenchguy 5y ago
Buy an electric car and you’ll fix all of your problems. Your 12v won’t last long with a compressor running.
- theodric 5y ago
  Hi, Pete! I loved the work you did in South Bend. Do you have a lead on a used electric car that will seat four people and our dog? Budget is 12k. Thanks!
  - idontknowifican 5y ago
    https://www.carfax.com/Used-Nissan-Leaf_w536 https://www.carfax.com/Used-Nissan-Leaf_w536 there’s a series of options that all fit. there needs to be a better argument against change other than repeating the fears we’ve heard others express. take some time to see if what people tell you is true
    - exotree 5y ago
      There are a bunch of Nissan Leafs in my area and that’s it. Doesn’t really qualify as “options,” especially during the winter months.
      - idontknowifican 5y ago
        i don’t think that changing from « there aren’t any cars » to « the cars are ugly » deserves any more of a response than this
        dahfizz 5y ago
        A new Nissan leaf gets less than 70 miles of range in the winter, and they have notoriously bad battery life. A used leaf in cold climates is actually useless. Assuming that the OP is talking exclusively about asthetics when they specifically mention winter performance is bad faith.
        5y ago
TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
Having observed, what, maybe two or three hundred drivers of commercial diesel vehicles, and verbally surveying, what, maybe 15% of those, I've come to the firm conclusion the overwhelming majority of them leave their engines idle due to a historic quirk, whereby it was widely considered to improve longevity of the engine to reduce the number stop-start cycles. This has been pretty much obsoleted by improvements in metallurgy, machining tolerances, and lubricant improvements - thermal cycling is still important, but that's a negligible concern over a 20 to 40 minute period in temperate climates. Modern turbo diesel engine cold-starts should be considered ready to drive in a gentle manner immediately, avoid full boost till operating temperature - but full boost should rarely be needed in most driving conditions anyways.
- NullPrefix 5y ago
  >This has been pretty much obsoleted by improvements in metallurgy, machining tolerances, and lubricant improvements Is there a source for this claim? Also, what year is the modern engine cutoff? 2000 or 2010?
prawn 5y ago
Not sure that's the city's responsibility but more between industry and manufacturers. Industry could use the press (as you said) to apply pressure, but the city would have enough on its plate.
giantg2 5y ago
"I feel like there's far too much focus spent on chastising the sinners and not nearly enough effect spent creating vehicles where the common sense action is not to need to idle." Actually it seems like many sinners are perfectly happy to blame only the delivery drivers, instead of applying this to other vehicles (their own) as well.
- simulate-me 5y ago
  Most people don't: a) spend a large amount of time idling. b) drive diesel a truck. c) run a business that requires idling a truck (i.e. commercial trucking literally gets paid to idle).
  - giantg2 5y ago
    But many people do have cars, arguably a larger number than trucks. Many of them letting it idle for fairly long periods of time in the winter to remove ice, in the summer for air-conditioning if waiting for someone, etc. So on the aggregate, they are still producing a high number of fumes. Also, if the business requires the truck to idle to run loading, unloading, and processing equipment, then the law exempts them from the requirements while using that equipment.
aldebran 5y ago
Volvo takes it to a new level. They don’t crank up the heat to whatever you set it to unless you’re actually driving. Idling doesn’t help.
- Too 5y ago
  What type of engine? Idling an ICE should produce more excess heat than anyone desires. Unless the engine goes into start/stop which I’m not sure counts as idling and I doubt it does so if started in the cold, at least mine doesn’t. This can also be overridden with power drive mode or disabling start stop.
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    When my thermostat was stuck open it would take me 30 mins of driving to get actual heat. After I fixed it still takes ages for most (small) cars to warm up at idle. It's only when you start driving excess heat is produced. Same with a boat oil changes - you either sit there for half an hour and maybe oil loosens up or you go for 15 minute spin around and it's ready for sucky sucky time.

ars 5y ago

Non-diesel vehicles don't pollute much if at all while idling. If we could get rid of diesel from commercial vehicles air quality would dramatically improve.

amluto 5y ago
Only when warm. Many modern gasoline burning vehicles are extremely stinky when cold. As I understand it, they deliberately run rich when first started to help heat up the catalytic converter, and I wonder if this is a case of optimizing for the wrong thing. EVs are, of course, emission-free when idle. (Although, oddly, at least some Teslas still can’t open or close their windows when in the off-ish state.)
- LegitShady 5y ago
  My understanding of the cold-rich start was not anything to do with the catalytic converter. Cold air is more dense and contains more oxygen. At the same time, when the engine is cold gasoline is harder to vaporize and doesn't vaporize properly, and also can condense on cold engine parts. Running rich while the engine is cold allows additional gas to offset both of those issues. When the extra un-combusted gasoline passes through, a secondary air injection system allows the fuel to be burned up before reaching the catalytic converter and does heat it up faster, but this is a secondary benefit rather than the primary benefit.
- theodric 5y ago
  My 23-year-old V12 7 series has electrically heated catalytic converters for this very reason. Thanks to those, according to German regs it qualifies as a ULEV! I think it still stinks at first start. Also, the cats cost two grand each to replace and the car requires a second battery to power them without draining the main starting battery so much that the car won't turn over. That's probably why we don't see more of this...
- ars 5y ago
  > Only when warm. In that case you should prefer idling, rather than stopping the motor and letting it cool down.
2143 5y ago
The reason for diesels on commercial vehicles is the massive amount of torque they produce low down the rev range. Useful for pulling heavy loads. I think the newer ones with the AdBlue tech prevents the soot from getting out.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  A really good way to generate lots of torque from a stop is an electric motor. You could use a combination of gasoline motors at speed with electric to start to get this same combination.
  - earleybird 5y ago
    As demonstrated by the Koenigsegg Gemera and its use of electric motors and an ICE. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39yEt4R-SU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W39yEt4R-SU
  - 2143 5y ago
    Sure I agree electric engines produce even more torque. Just give it a few years for the whole thing to be economically viable and for them to convert their diesel trucks to EV trucks.
    - User23 5y ago
      Hence diesel-electric locomotives. Those things produce serious torque. I wonder if that technology could be usefully adapted to commercial trucks.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        Diesel electric locomotives have a much worse idling problem than diesel ICE vehicles, you can’t just shut the turbine down without consequences, especially in winter, so they just idle for hours. See for example https://www.saferail.ca/blog/2019/7/3/idling-of-diesel-engines-rail-and-reason-the-dumbing-down-of-smartstart https://www.saferail.ca/blog/2019/7/3/idling-of-diesel-engin...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

FateOfNations 5y ago

On quite a few cars, parts of the HVAC system (namely the AC compressor and potentially some of the fans) are mechanically linked to the engine with belts, rather than using electricity.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Indeed. Only electric vehicles and hybrids, some with electric vs belt driven compressors, others with electric driven heat pumps, can run HVAC without the need for an engine running.
Sebb767 5y ago
Also, even if they're separate, AC and heating can use a lot of electricity and normal ICE cars usually don't have big batteries. Especially in the winter you'd also need a solid reserve, because the car might be already be discharged due to cold and need more power to get going. Throw in some short range trips and an engine stop automatic and you'll quickly end up with an empty battery, which will reflect very bad on the manufacturer. You could of course add a second battery, but that would add a lot of weight and complexity for a not very noticeable benefit.

ratsforhorses 5y ago

I'm sure that wearing warmer clothing, keeping windows doors closed will keep in the heat, or open the windows and let a breeze cool you in the hot weather...for 10-20mins but ofc depends... Here in Romania unfortunately no such a law, so I ask politely, if refused ask why, if again leave their door open or take their car picture... I feel like a jerk sometimes so have been doing it less... also so many car drivers seem to think they have a right rather than are a blight....¯\_(ツ)_/¯ One thing the bus drivers here said is their electronic system resets if they stop their motor, don't know if it's BS , they seem nice guys just not very educated in ecological stuff , like most Romanians.. Nice to see such an article

skinnymuch 5y ago
Neither of the simple solutions given will work in all situations. Cars still get super cold if the temperature is say 0 to -5 Celsius (32 or ~22.5 Fahrenheit). Be in a car with that temperature for an hour+. It’ll be awful for most people.
- Phenomenit 5y ago
  Maybe a car isn't a house? I mean I understand that it's not practical all the time but your polluting the air by sitting inside your car instead of being in a building with an electric and optimized HVAC.
  - j-bos 5y ago
    While many people could reasonably make the effort to enter a building instead. At least as many, cannot due to their economic circumstances.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    I wasn’t thinking of a car as a house substitute. However, not everyone has a safe, warm physical residential home, of any kind, to go to.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago

qiqitori 5y ago

I have a 2nd gen Prius. You can generally use the EV button to prevent the motor from turning on. Perhaps unrelated, but when turning on the engine for the first time in a while the Prius will burn gas to heat up the engine. You can prevent that too by pressing the EV button right after pressing the power button. (Or maybe you can hold it down while pressing the power button?) Not sure if it works all the time.

thatfrenchguy 5y ago

Buy an electric car and you’ll fix all of your problems. Your 12v won’t last long with a compressor running.

theodric 5y ago
Hi, Pete! I loved the work you did in South Bend. Do you have a lead on a used electric car that will seat four people and our dog? Budget is 12k. Thanks!
- idontknowifican 5y ago
  https://www.carfax.com/Used-Nissan-Leaf_w536 https://www.carfax.com/Used-Nissan-Leaf_w536 there’s a series of options that all fit. there needs to be a better argument against change other than repeating the fears we’ve heard others express. take some time to see if what people tell you is true
  - exotree 5y ago
    There are a bunch of Nissan Leafs in my area and that’s it. Doesn’t really qualify as “options,” especially during the winter months.
    - idontknowifican 5y ago
      i don’t think that changing from « there aren’t any cars » to « the cars are ugly » deserves any more of a response than this
      - dahfizz 5y ago
        A new Nissan leaf gets less than 70 miles of range in the winter, and they have notoriously bad battery life. A used leaf in cold climates is actually useless. Assuming that the OP is talking exclusively about asthetics when they specifically mention winter performance is bad faith.
      - 5y ago

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago

Having observed, what, maybe two or three hundred drivers of commercial diesel vehicles, and verbally surveying, what, maybe 15% of those, I've come to the firm conclusion the overwhelming majority of them leave their engines idle due to a historic quirk, whereby it was widely considered to improve longevity of the engine to reduce the number stop-start cycles. This has been pretty much obsoleted by improvements in metallurgy, machining tolerances, and lubricant improvements - thermal cycling is still important, but that's a negligible concern over a 20 to 40 minute period in temperate climates. Modern turbo diesel engine cold-starts should be considered ready to drive in a gentle manner immediately, avoid full boost till operating temperature - but full boost should rarely be needed in most driving conditions anyways.

NullPrefix 5y ago
>This has been pretty much obsoleted by improvements in metallurgy, machining tolerances, and lubricant improvements Is there a source for this claim? Also, what year is the modern engine cutoff? 2000 or 2010?

prawn 5y ago

Not sure that's the city's responsibility but more between industry and manufacturers. Industry could use the press (as you said) to apply pressure, but the city would have enough on its plate.

giantg2 5y ago

"I feel like there's far too much focus spent on chastising the sinners and not nearly enough effect spent creating vehicles where the common sense action is not to need to idle." Actually it seems like many sinners are perfectly happy to blame only the delivery drivers, instead of applying this to other vehicles (their own) as well.

simulate-me 5y ago
Most people don't: a) spend a large amount of time idling. b) drive diesel a truck. c) run a business that requires idling a truck (i.e. commercial trucking literally gets paid to idle).
- giantg2 5y ago
  But many people do have cars, arguably a larger number than trucks. Many of them letting it idle for fairly long periods of time in the winter to remove ice, in the summer for air-conditioning if waiting for someone, etc. So on the aggregate, they are still producing a high number of fumes. Also, if the business requires the truck to idle to run loading, unloading, and processing equipment, then the law exempts them from the requirements while using that equipment.

aldebran 5y ago

Volvo takes it to a new level. They don’t crank up the heat to whatever you set it to unless you’re actually driving. Idling doesn’t help.

Too 5y ago
What type of engine? Idling an ICE should produce more excess heat than anyone desires. Unless the engine goes into start/stop which I’m not sure counts as idling and I doubt it does so if started in the cold, at least mine doesn’t. This can also be overridden with power drive mode or disabling start stop.
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  When my thermostat was stuck open it would take me 30 mins of driving to get actual heat. After I fixed it still takes ages for most (small) cars to warm up at idle. It's only when you start driving excess heat is produced. Same with a boat oil changes - you either sit there for half an hour and maybe oil loosens up or you go for 15 minute spin around and it's ready for sucky sucky time.