5 ms·

I guess your problem is seeing it as ownership instead of companionship.

pessimizer 5y ago
It's definitely ownership. They didn't choose to be with you and can't choose to leave, and you have the power of life and death over them.
- erdos4d 5y ago
  > They didn't choose to be with you and can't choose to leave, and you have the power of life and death over them. This is an "interesting" mentality I see a lot. Ever dog I ever had was a stray and could leave if they wanted to. I don't really get people who think this way, but it seems really prevalent.
  - refurb 5y ago
    I mean a raccoon will keep coming to my house if I feed it, does that mean we have companionship?
    - smt88 5y ago
      It is bizarre that you think the human/dog relationship is analogous to one with a raccoon. You seem to disagree with the entire concept of domestication, which means you disagree with mountains of scientific facts along with billions of people's personal experiences with pets.
      - refurb 5y ago
        You can domesticate raccoons. My point is - an animal that sticks around is not necessarily a companion. It could just see you as a reliable source of food.
        tpoacher 5y ago
        I'm a reliable source of food for my wife. But I would like to think she also sees me as a companion xD I hope I shouldn't be expected to starve her to test this theory!
        smt88 5y ago
        Domestication is a defined term referring to animals that have significantly evolved in instinct and, often, physiology to be useful and cooperative to humans. You can't domesticate a raccoon.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  They don’t see it that way. Dogs are pack animals, they are wired to integrate into the social fabric they find themselves in. The two species have been co-developing together for 50,000 years, you might not get it, but others do.
  - teakettle42 5y ago
    Even if that were remotely true, why would you assume co-evolution produced symbiosis instead of a parasitical relationship? Now, the reality is, the modern pathological, codependent, indoor dog ownership model did not exist in any significant prevalence until the past twenty years.
- Auracle 5y ago
  I live in a rural area, our dog has a doggy door and we have no fence. She’s completely free to leave. The same goes for my two dogs growing up. They all would/would have defended me with their lives. I once had to charge a deer with a fawn that was stomping on my current (12 pound) dog, so you could say I’ve at least somewhat approached the same. For what it’s worth I’m sure all of the dogs could have survived on their own, at least in the summer.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "They all would/would have defended me with their lives." This can be seen as an instance of manipulation and deprivation of free will on a species level, as dogs have been deliberately bred by humans to have these traits. Though, then again one could question whether animals (or humans, for that matter) have free will to begin with, even if they're not bred to have traits that are desirable to humans.
- labster 5y ago
  Oh, it’s ownership alright, it’s just the human usually doesn’t realize who owns him.
- Cyphase 5y ago
  I'll grant you that in most cases they did not choose to be with you on the day you brought them home. But aside from cases where they're constantly inside, fenced in, leashed, or the like, can you explain why they can't choose to leave? Plenty of animals stay when there's no external force preventing them from leaving. As a personal anecdote, at a previous place where I lived (a large property), one day a cat showed up off the street. Plenty of cats would come and go relatively often, and they'd bolt if you got too close. This one was okay with being around humans. It looked hungry, so I gave it some food, and saw it again soon after. It wasn't long before it was living on the property full-time, outside. I fed it, and took it to the vet. It turned out she was pregnant, likely from before she arrived, and she ended up having the litter there. Did I own that cat? If so, at what point did that ownership begin?
- silisili 5y ago
  Modern dogs are social creatures. They literally wouldn't survive in the wild. Even as far back as histories go, humans and dogs have had a symbiotic relationship. To compare dog ownership to say, slavery or the like, is ludicrous. It's definite survival for the dog, and all too often survival for the human as well in the form of companionship, emotional support, and of course typical working dog duties. I guess I understand your take from a logical, outside view. But not from someone who has ever lived with a dog.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    > To compare dog ownership to say, slavery or the like, is ludicrous. It's definite survival for the dog, and all too often survival for the human as well in the form of companionship, emotional support, and of course typical working dog duties. History tells us some people also had strong relationships with slaves as well. It doesn’t change the fundamental nature of the relationship being a massive power imbalance with no autonomy on one side. (I say this as a super happy dog owner)
  - efficientsticks 5y ago
    This is incorrect. Dogs don’t just survive, they thrive. In Romania the government resorted to mass killing of dogs because they bred so successfully. Also in poor countries and remote places where you wouldn’t expect there to be excess food for strays. Dog ownership is very often slavery. The nature of the slavery is very explicit - the dog’s work is to sniff drugs all their life, or retrieve dead game, or guide people. In other cases you can read in this thread, a past owner has had a captive dog and abused them for who knows what reason.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  Do you own your kids?
  - edflsafoiewq 5y ago
    Do you neuter your kids?
    - runnerup 5y ago
      I don't neuter my dog? Wtf. The vast majority of Northern Europe also doesn't neuter their dogs. Hell, Norway apparently considers it animal abuse (which I think I agree with mostly due to the negative effects of lacking hormones) The Norwegian Animal Welfare Law of 2010 §9, 2nd paragraph reads “Det skal ikke gjøres operative inngrep eller fjernes kroppsdeler på dyr uten at det foreligger forsvarlig grunn ut fra hensynet til dyrets helse.” - “No surgery or removal of body parts of animals can be done except when there is a proper reason considering the animal’s health”. That means no tail dockings, no ear cropping, and no castrations.
      - tsimionescu 5y ago
        This is a tangent, but I recently spent some time trying to decide whether to neuter my cat. I don't know how different this is for dogs, but female cats tend to act as if they are in quite a bit of distress while in heat. They also tend to enter heat something like one week per month unless pregnant, and they go back to the same cycle a few weeks after giving birth. So, a female cat in nature can either endure being in heat with no relief about a quarter of her life, or give birth about three times a year (wrecking her body). I'm not convinced neutering her was a less humane choice (neutered female cats also have the longest lifespan on average).
        thih9 5y ago
        I think in dogs there is the additional issue where neutering is often used as a replacement for proper training.
      - 5y ago

It's definitely ownership. They didn't choose to be with you and can't choose to leave, and you have the power of life and death over them.

erdos4d 5y ago
> They didn't choose to be with you and can't choose to leave, and you have the power of life and death over them. This is an "interesting" mentality I see a lot. Ever dog I ever had was a stray and could leave if they wanted to. I don't really get people who think this way, but it seems really prevalent.
- refurb 5y ago
  I mean a raccoon will keep coming to my house if I feed it, does that mean we have companionship?
  - smt88 5y ago
    It is bizarre that you think the human/dog relationship is analogous to one with a raccoon. You seem to disagree with the entire concept of domestication, which means you disagree with mountains of scientific facts along with billions of people's personal experiences with pets.
    - refurb 5y ago
      You can domesticate raccoons. My point is - an animal that sticks around is not necessarily a companion. It could just see you as a reliable source of food.
      - tpoacher 5y ago
        I'm a reliable source of food for my wife. But I would like to think she also sees me as a companion xD I hope I shouldn't be expected to starve her to test this theory!
      - smt88 5y ago
        Domestication is a defined term referring to animals that have significantly evolved in instinct and, often, physiology to be useful and cooperative to humans. You can't domesticate a raccoon.
Spooky23 5y ago
They don’t see it that way. Dogs are pack animals, they are wired to integrate into the social fabric they find themselves in. The two species have been co-developing together for 50,000 years, you might not get it, but others do.
- teakettle42 5y ago
  Even if that were remotely true, why would you assume co-evolution produced symbiosis instead of a parasitical relationship? Now, the reality is, the modern pathological, codependent, indoor dog ownership model did not exist in any significant prevalence until the past twenty years.
Auracle 5y ago
I live in a rural area, our dog has a doggy door and we have no fence. She’s completely free to leave. The same goes for my two dogs growing up. They all would/would have defended me with their lives. I once had to charge a deer with a fawn that was stomping on my current (12 pound) dog, so you could say I’ve at least somewhat approached the same. For what it’s worth I’m sure all of the dogs could have survived on their own, at least in the summer.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "They all would/would have defended me with their lives." This can be seen as an instance of manipulation and deprivation of free will on a species level, as dogs have been deliberately bred by humans to have these traits. Though, then again one could question whether animals (or humans, for that matter) have free will to begin with, even if they're not bred to have traits that are desirable to humans.
labster 5y ago
Oh, it’s ownership alright, it’s just the human usually doesn’t realize who owns him.
Cyphase 5y ago
I'll grant you that in most cases they did not choose to be with you on the day you brought them home. But aside from cases where they're constantly inside, fenced in, leashed, or the like, can you explain why they can't choose to leave? Plenty of animals stay when there's no external force preventing them from leaving. As a personal anecdote, at a previous place where I lived (a large property), one day a cat showed up off the street. Plenty of cats would come and go relatively often, and they'd bolt if you got too close. This one was okay with being around humans. It looked hungry, so I gave it some food, and saw it again soon after. It wasn't long before it was living on the property full-time, outside. I fed it, and took it to the vet. It turned out she was pregnant, likely from before she arrived, and she ended up having the litter there. Did I own that cat? If so, at what point did that ownership begin?
silisili 5y ago
Modern dogs are social creatures. They literally wouldn't survive in the wild. Even as far back as histories go, humans and dogs have had a symbiotic relationship. To compare dog ownership to say, slavery or the like, is ludicrous. It's definite survival for the dog, and all too often survival for the human as well in the form of companionship, emotional support, and of course typical working dog duties. I guess I understand your take from a logical, outside view. But not from someone who has ever lived with a dog.
- kortilla 5y ago
  > To compare dog ownership to say, slavery or the like, is ludicrous. It's definite survival for the dog, and all too often survival for the human as well in the form of companionship, emotional support, and of course typical working dog duties. History tells us some people also had strong relationships with slaves as well. It doesn’t change the fundamental nature of the relationship being a massive power imbalance with no autonomy on one side. (I say this as a super happy dog owner)
- efficientsticks 5y ago
  This is incorrect. Dogs don’t just survive, they thrive. In Romania the government resorted to mass killing of dogs because they bred so successfully. Also in poor countries and remote places where you wouldn’t expect there to be excess food for strays. Dog ownership is very often slavery. The nature of the slavery is very explicit - the dog’s work is to sniff drugs all their life, or retrieve dead game, or guide people. In other cases you can read in this thread, a past owner has had a captive dog and abused them for who knows what reason.
lordnacho 5y ago
Do you own your kids?
- edflsafoiewq 5y ago
  Do you neuter your kids?
  - runnerup 5y ago
    I don't neuter my dog? Wtf. The vast majority of Northern Europe also doesn't neuter their dogs. Hell, Norway apparently considers it animal abuse (which I think I agree with mostly due to the negative effects of lacking hormones) The Norwegian Animal Welfare Law of 2010 §9, 2nd paragraph reads “Det skal ikke gjøres operative inngrep eller fjernes kroppsdeler på dyr uten at det foreligger forsvarlig grunn ut fra hensynet til dyrets helse.” - “No surgery or removal of body parts of animals can be done except when there is a proper reason considering the animal’s health”. That means no tail dockings, no ear cropping, and no castrations.
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      This is a tangent, but I recently spent some time trying to decide whether to neuter my cat. I don't know how different this is for dogs, but female cats tend to act as if they are in quite a bit of distress while in heat. They also tend to enter heat something like one week per month unless pregnant, and they go back to the same cycle a few weeks after giving birth. So, a female cat in nature can either endure being in heat with no relief about a quarter of her life, or give birth about three times a year (wrecking her body). I'm not convinced neutering her was a less humane choice (neutered female cats also have the longest lifespan on average).
      - thih9 5y ago
        I think in dogs there is the additional issue where neutering is often used as a replacement for proper training.
    - 5y ago