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"an inherent trade off between environmental consideration and speed" It's not just environmental consideration. Speed also incentivizes corner cutting, nepoti

"an inherent trade off between environmental consideration and speed" It's not just environmental consideration. Speed also incentivizes corner cutting, nepotism, and all sorts of corrupt behavior. Evergrande is a great example of speed. Banks in China made the same mistakes that banks in US made in 2008. If banks in China had tight regulations for the last 20 years, real estate growth would be significantly hampered. China should be given credit in that their leaders learned from other countries and leveraged their population size to grow with incredible speed. However, I would argue that China's rise to power has less to do with their efficiency and more to do with laws of growth. If we exclude Covid, I am willing to bet that China will not be able to sustain double digit growth ever again. In fact, I am willing to bet my house that when China achieves US's per capita GDP levels, China will never achieve double digit growth ever again.

analyst74 5y ago
> Speed also incentivizes corner cutting, nepotism, and all sorts of corrupt behavior. Compare that with SF bay area politics, I don't think speed has any effect on corruption.
taurath 5y ago
In the US bribery is just legal, and harder to access
xvector 5y ago
I would counterargue that corners are often cut just as terribly in the US. The corners are simply cut slower, because everything here is done slower. For example, electronics built in the US are typically shittier than electronics built in China, despite taking significantly longer to build and employees being paid orders of magnitude more (as noted by companies like Apple, Purism, etc.) Within our culture in the US there is a clear and comically obvious problem of bureaucracy and red-tape. This doesn't really exist in software yet, but the day our government gets its claws into the software industry is the day that innovation in the US can be put to rest. (Well, it's already happening - if you try to create a software startup that processes user data, you are probably breaking tens of laws you don't even know exist.) There is also a cultural difference. One thing I have noticed when working with my Chinese coworkers is that they do not bullshit nearly as much as my other coworkers. They get straight to the point, deal in metrics and facts, and don't try to inflate their accomplishments. Maybe that's just my current work environment, maybe it's a cultural thing - I suspect the latter.
- nouveaux 5y ago
  > "I would counterargue that corners are often cut just as terribly in the US." I would agree with you. The bay bridge had issues with the steel[0]. The millenium tower[1] also has corner cutting problems. The question is the frequency. I believe corner cutting happens far less in the US than say China. As a Chinese person in the US, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that people in China would prefer foreign products over Chinese ones across the board. The last time I was in China, my friends tell me that they prefer products from Korea over ones in China. The problem is the cost. > "Within our culture in the US there is a clear and comically obvious problem of bureaucracy and broken red-tape." People often complain about bureaucracy and broken red-tape in the US but after thinking about this deeply, I'm beginning to suspect that the US government is one of the more efficient governments in the world: 1) How many people in this world can honestly say "Wow my government is so efficient that it's more efficient than the corporations in my country." 2) The US has some amazing departments. National parks, military/CIA/FBA/NSA, federal reserve, state department, FDA, CDC, DOD (research), public universities, community college, consumer protection, USPS, etc. What they actually accomplish is amazing and is at the top of the world or near the top. 3) The US accomplishes so much while maintaining a democracy. The US pioneers human rights around the world. [0] https://www.wired.com/2015/06/mystery-brand-new-bay-bridges-corroded-steel/ https://www.wired.com/2015/06/mystery-brand-new-bay-bridges-... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/10/san-francisco-millennium-tower-sinking https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/10/san-francisc...
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    I can honestly say that many agencies of my goverent are more efficient than the private alternative. As far as pioneering human rights around the world, a few million dead innocents disagree. People who say the US is good at human rights always limit it to within their own borders. Internationally, the US has caused more death and destruction than almost any country.
  - csomar 5y ago
    > USPS You certain? I used them a couple times and they are the most ridiculous postal carrier I've ever interacted with.
_dain_ 5y ago
>Speed also incentivizes corner cutting, nepotism, and all sorts of corrupt behavior. Slowness is surely even better for nepotism and corrupt behaviour.
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  It creates more room for other problems too. More time for obstructionists to find footing, increased chance of loss of political will, and more opportunities for public opinion to sour among other things. While rushing isn’t good, protracting the process is also a likely death sentence for the project in question.
- nouveaux 5y ago
  I'm not familiar with this so if you can help me understand, I would appreciate it. From my understanding, one of the causes of slowness in US is waiting for bids. Government related work is required to open projects up for bids for a period of time, review all the bids and document the process. In many other countries, the project goes to the company with better relations to the project manager or the companies with the best bribes.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Trying to do too much in one large bid instead of splitting out to smaller companies doesn't help either.
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    The longer something takes, the longer it is expected to take. Delays compound on themselves, it becomes harder to plan further into the future. Costs skyrocket. More opportunities for bad actors to enrich themselves.
    - nouveaux 5y ago
      Maybe. The way I see it, transparency and fairness takes far more time than nepotism and corrupt behavior. How would you suggest that the government be more fair, transparent and fast?
oblio 5y ago
China will most likely never reach US GDP per capita levels. Japan or Germany or Sweden aren't. Maybe GDP per capita PPP levels, even though that's also debatable.
- socialdemocrat 5y ago
  Many have reached US levels of economic output per hour. The key difference is that while Europeans have opted for better work-life balance, Americans are increasingly worked to the bone. There seems to be no end to stories about people working 3 job, never having vacation, sometimes not even weekends. The other challenge is that many other countries are more aggressive about keeping resource usage to a minimal. Compare e.g. usage or resources, water, land and energy per dollar of GDP and the US is really high. European countries, Korea and Japan may not have as high GDP but is often on a far more sustainable path.
  - smegma2 5y ago
    Japan has better WLB than the US? Are you sure? This sounds very anecdotal. > Americans are increasingly worked to the bone. There seems to be no end to stories about people working 3 job, never having vacation, sometimes not even weekends. My counter: I don't know a single person working like this
    - bluGill 5y ago
      I've heard a few like that. They are in the early years of founding a business, their day job is unpaid, the 2nd job is so they can eat, and theweekend job is more money to invest in the main one. The plan is in a few years the first job makes money and they quit the others. Or sometimes someone who is laid off in a downturn and works like that for a year while waiting for things to improve so they can return to their previous high spending lifestyle with lots of vacation to enjoy the toys they are now just able to make payments on.
      - lupire 5y ago
        "Early years of founding a business" is not a substitantial part of the population.

analyst74 5y ago

> Speed also incentivizes corner cutting, nepotism, and all sorts of corrupt behavior. Compare that with SF bay area politics, I don't think speed has any effect on corruption.

taurath 5y ago

In the US bribery is just legal, and harder to access

xvector 5y ago

I would counterargue that corners are often cut just as terribly in the US. The corners are simply cut slower, because everything here is done slower. For example, electronics built in the US are typically shittier than electronics built in China, despite taking significantly longer to build and employees being paid orders of magnitude more (as noted by companies like Apple, Purism, etc.) Within our culture in the US there is a clear and comically obvious problem of bureaucracy and red-tape. This doesn't really exist in software yet, but the day our government gets its claws into the software industry is the day that innovation in the US can be put to rest. (Well, it's already happening - if you try to create a software startup that processes user data, you are probably breaking tens of laws you don't even know exist.) There is also a cultural difference. One thing I have noticed when working with my Chinese coworkers is that they do not bullshit nearly as much as my other coworkers. They get straight to the point, deal in metrics and facts, and don't try to inflate their accomplishments. Maybe that's just my current work environment, maybe it's a cultural thing - I suspect the latter.

nouveaux 5y ago
> "I would counterargue that corners are often cut just as terribly in the US." I would agree with you. The bay bridge had issues with the steel[0]. The millenium tower[1] also has corner cutting problems. The question is the frequency. I believe corner cutting happens far less in the US than say China. As a Chinese person in the US, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that people in China would prefer foreign products over Chinese ones across the board. The last time I was in China, my friends tell me that they prefer products from Korea over ones in China. The problem is the cost. > "Within our culture in the US there is a clear and comically obvious problem of bureaucracy and broken red-tape." People often complain about bureaucracy and broken red-tape in the US but after thinking about this deeply, I'm beginning to suspect that the US government is one of the more efficient governments in the world: 1) How many people in this world can honestly say "Wow my government is so efficient that it's more efficient than the corporations in my country." 2) The US has some amazing departments. National parks, military/CIA/FBA/NSA, federal reserve, state department, FDA, CDC, DOD (research), public universities, community college, consumer protection, USPS, etc. What they actually accomplish is amazing and is at the top of the world or near the top. 3) The US accomplishes so much while maintaining a democracy. The US pioneers human rights around the world. [0] https://www.wired.com/2015/06/mystery-brand-new-bay-bridges-corroded-steel/ https://www.wired.com/2015/06/mystery-brand-new-bay-bridges-... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/10/san-francisco-millennium-tower-sinking https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/10/san-francisc...
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  I can honestly say that many agencies of my goverent are more efficient than the private alternative. As far as pioneering human rights around the world, a few million dead innocents disagree. People who say the US is good at human rights always limit it to within their own borders. Internationally, the US has caused more death and destruction than almost any country.
- csomar 5y ago
  > USPS You certain? I used them a couple times and they are the most ridiculous postal carrier I've ever interacted with.

_dain_ 5y ago

>Speed also incentivizes corner cutting, nepotism, and all sorts of corrupt behavior. Slowness is surely even better for nepotism and corrupt behaviour.

kitsunesoba 5y ago
It creates more room for other problems too. More time for obstructionists to find footing, increased chance of loss of political will, and more opportunities for public opinion to sour among other things. While rushing isn’t good, protracting the process is also a likely death sentence for the project in question.
nouveaux 5y ago
I'm not familiar with this so if you can help me understand, I would appreciate it. From my understanding, one of the causes of slowness in US is waiting for bids. Government related work is required to open projects up for bids for a period of time, review all the bids and document the process. In many other countries, the project goes to the company with better relations to the project manager or the companies with the best bribes.
- bluGill 5y ago
  Trying to do too much in one large bid instead of splitting out to smaller companies doesn't help either.
- _dain_ 5y ago
  The longer something takes, the longer it is expected to take. Delays compound on themselves, it becomes harder to plan further into the future. Costs skyrocket. More opportunities for bad actors to enrich themselves.
  - nouveaux 5y ago
    Maybe. The way I see it, transparency and fairness takes far more time than nepotism and corrupt behavior. How would you suggest that the government be more fair, transparent and fast?

oblio 5y ago

China will most likely never reach US GDP per capita levels. Japan or Germany or Sweden aren't. Maybe GDP per capita PPP levels, even though that's also debatable.

socialdemocrat 5y ago
Many have reached US levels of economic output per hour. The key difference is that while Europeans have opted for better work-life balance, Americans are increasingly worked to the bone. There seems to be no end to stories about people working 3 job, never having vacation, sometimes not even weekends. The other challenge is that many other countries are more aggressive about keeping resource usage to a minimal. Compare e.g. usage or resources, water, land and energy per dollar of GDP and the US is really high. European countries, Korea and Japan may not have as high GDP but is often on a far more sustainable path.
- smegma2 5y ago
  Japan has better WLB than the US? Are you sure? This sounds very anecdotal. > Americans are increasingly worked to the bone. There seems to be no end to stories about people working 3 job, never having vacation, sometimes not even weekends. My counter: I don't know a single person working like this
  - bluGill 5y ago
    I've heard a few like that. They are in the early years of founding a business, their day job is unpaid, the 2nd job is so they can eat, and theweekend job is more money to invest in the main one. The plan is in a few years the first job makes money and they quit the others. Or sometimes someone who is laid off in a downturn and works like that for a year while waiting for things to improve so they can return to their previous high spending lifestyle with lots of vacation to enjoy the toys they are now just able to make payments on.
    - lupire 5y ago
      "Early years of founding a business" is not a substitantial part of the population.