6 ms·

It's pretty similar to opening a physical store and not making the entrance accessible.

akersten 5y ago
Not really, because we can all agree that the entrance must be at least 36 inches wide and at an angle of no more than 10 degrees (or whatever). Those are physical properties that can be measured. Versus web accessibility guidelines are a collection of opinions and "best practices." Harder to measure and evaluate.
- ezfe 5y ago
  Not really - it's painfully obvious when a web developer takes no regard for accessibility or usability and instead wanted to create something that looked fancy. Look no further than people who replace `alert()` with a half-assed replacement that accomplishes 10% of what `alert()` does in 7 characters.
  - akersten 5y ago
    All I can say is that I'm glad physical accessibility isn't codified by "I'll know it when I see it" standards. You kind of make my point though - sure, it's obvious when it's wrong. But it's not obvious if it's right, which is the actual fear. It's not even clear if it's possible to conclusively determine that it's right.
    - thorum 5y ago
      Can you give an example of what you mean - a scenario where WCAG guidelines are too ambiguous? https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/quickref/ https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/quickref/
      - akersten 5y ago
        Sure, any time: > text can be resized without assistive technology up to 200 percent without loss of content or functionality. What does "without loss of content or functionality" mean? If the resized text flys off the side of the screen (but there's a scrollbar now), is that a loss of functionality? I sure can't read it as quickly anymore, because I have to scroll to it. So that's less functional to me, but that's my opinion. And there isn't a layout solution to that, because by definition making text larger will mean less text on the page, assuming full-page content. Does "without assistive technology" mean my website needs to manually implement a Size Up/Size Down control, or can I assume your browser has it built in? You might consider that pedantic. But I can take almost any of these guidelines and ask the same questions. And the answer is always something like "what a reasonable person would think." But we're developers, and highly disturbed by ambiguity. So saying "the law is to follow these guidelines" doesn't fit right when the guidelines are not empirically defined. > For the visual presentation of blocks of text, a mechanism is available to achieve the following: Foreground and background colors can be selected by the user. Does "use an extension for your user-agent to swap out the CSS" count? I can't think of a single mainstream website that lets me choose the color of my text. > Web pages do not contain anything that flashes more than three times in any one second period. What is a flash? What is an anything? Can I embed a flashing YouTube video in my user-generated content that I post to make your website in violation of the WCAG? Do you have to implement technical countermeasures to prevent me from doing that? Does YouTube have to prevent users from uploading such content? These are the kind of questions that have to be answered before we could seriously consider this as practical law.
        thorum 5y ago
        The WCAG guidelines do a good job of answering questions like these, in my experience. Regarding resizing text, the WCAG guidelines provide the following example of a website that meets the standards: "A user uses a zoom function in his user agent to change the scale of the content. All the content scales uniformly, and the user agent provides scroll bars, if necessary." https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/resize-text.html https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/resize-text.html (There is also a note under the guideline that due to widespread confusion on this specific rule, as long as you meet the basic criteria listed under "sufficient techniques" you are considered OK.) > Does "use an extension for your user-agent to swap out the CSS" count? Yes: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Techniques/general/G156 https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Techniques/general/G156 > What is a flash? What is an anything? A flash is "a pair of opposing changes in relative luminance that can cause seizures in some people if it is large enough and in the right frequency range" according to the definitions listed here, along with links to more detailed explanations and examples: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/three-flashes-or-below-threshold.html#key-terms https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/three-flashes-or... > Can I embed a flashing YouTube video in my user-generated content that I post to make your website in violation of the WCAG? Do you have to implement technical countermeasures to prevent me from doing that? Does YouTube have to prevent users from uploading such content? Clarification on user generated content is part of the WCAG 3.0 working draft, which you can read here: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#user-generated-content https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#user-generated-content
    - elliekelly 5y ago
      This is always the trade-off with regulation and whichever approach a regulation takes there are always people, sometimes (usually?) the same people, who will claim the other approach is the only viable option. If the regulation is written with specificity, e.g “Must use size 12pt Times New Roman font” then the argument is: “But this one-size-fits-all approach doesn’t make sense for my $business. It’s not that I don’t want to comply but as a business owner I need common-sense rules that give me leeway to implement them in a way that makes sense for my company and my customers. Otherwise I risk getting sued and that wouldn’t be fair.” And if the regulation is written with flexibility, e.g. “Must use a legible font of reasonably appropriate size” then the argument is: “But I just run a $business, how am I supposed to know what font is legible and what size is reasonably appropriate? It’s not that I don’t want to comply but as a business owner I need guidance so I know what it is I’m supposed to do. Otherwise I risk getting sued and that wouldn’t be fair.” And around and around we go making painstakingly incremental progress because of bad-faith arguments.
- TigeriusKirk 5y ago
  HN would fail the accessibility guidelines with the low-contrast downvoted comments. "People with limited vision or color blindness cannot read text if there is not enough contrast between the text and background (for example, light gray text on a light-colored background)."
  - gkop 5y ago
    Yep, and the horrifically small and close together click targets. Due to its simplicity however, HN is already heads and shoulders above so much of the modern web in its a11y-friendliness.

Not really, because we can all agree that the entrance must be at least 36 inches wide and at an angle of no more than 10 degrees (or whatever). Those are physical properties that can be measured. Versus web accessibility guidelines are a collection of opinions and "best practices." Harder to measure and evaluate.

ezfe 5y ago
Not really - it's painfully obvious when a web developer takes no regard for accessibility or usability and instead wanted to create something that looked fancy. Look no further than people who replace `alert()` with a half-assed replacement that accomplishes 10% of what `alert()` does in 7 characters.
- akersten 5y ago
  All I can say is that I'm glad physical accessibility isn't codified by "I'll know it when I see it" standards. You kind of make my point though - sure, it's obvious when it's wrong. But it's not obvious if it's right, which is the actual fear. It's not even clear if it's possible to conclusively determine that it's right.
  - thorum 5y ago
    Can you give an example of what you mean - a scenario where WCAG guidelines are too ambiguous? https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/quickref/ https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/quickref/
    - akersten 5y ago
      Sure, any time: > text can be resized without assistive technology up to 200 percent without loss of content or functionality. What does "without loss of content or functionality" mean? If the resized text flys off the side of the screen (but there's a scrollbar now), is that a loss of functionality? I sure can't read it as quickly anymore, because I have to scroll to it. So that's less functional to me, but that's my opinion. And there isn't a layout solution to that, because by definition making text larger will mean less text on the page, assuming full-page content. Does "without assistive technology" mean my website needs to manually implement a Size Up/Size Down control, or can I assume your browser has it built in? You might consider that pedantic. But I can take almost any of these guidelines and ask the same questions. And the answer is always something like "what a reasonable person would think." But we're developers, and highly disturbed by ambiguity. So saying "the law is to follow these guidelines" doesn't fit right when the guidelines are not empirically defined. > For the visual presentation of blocks of text, a mechanism is available to achieve the following: Foreground and background colors can be selected by the user. Does "use an extension for your user-agent to swap out the CSS" count? I can't think of a single mainstream website that lets me choose the color of my text. > Web pages do not contain anything that flashes more than three times in any one second period. What is a flash? What is an anything? Can I embed a flashing YouTube video in my user-generated content that I post to make your website in violation of the WCAG? Do you have to implement technical countermeasures to prevent me from doing that? Does YouTube have to prevent users from uploading such content? These are the kind of questions that have to be answered before we could seriously consider this as practical law.
      - thorum 5y ago
        The WCAG guidelines do a good job of answering questions like these, in my experience. Regarding resizing text, the WCAG guidelines provide the following example of a website that meets the standards: "A user uses a zoom function in his user agent to change the scale of the content. All the content scales uniformly, and the user agent provides scroll bars, if necessary." https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/resize-text.html https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/resize-text.html (There is also a note under the guideline that due to widespread confusion on this specific rule, as long as you meet the basic criteria listed under "sufficient techniques" you are considered OK.) > Does "use an extension for your user-agent to swap out the CSS" count? Yes: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Techniques/general/G156 https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Techniques/general/G156 > What is a flash? What is an anything? A flash is "a pair of opposing changes in relative luminance that can cause seizures in some people if it is large enough and in the right frequency range" according to the definitions listed here, along with links to more detailed explanations and examples: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/three-flashes-or-below-threshold.html#key-terms https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/three-flashes-or... > Can I embed a flashing YouTube video in my user-generated content that I post to make your website in violation of the WCAG? Do you have to implement technical countermeasures to prevent me from doing that? Does YouTube have to prevent users from uploading such content? Clarification on user generated content is part of the WCAG 3.0 working draft, which you can read here: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#user-generated-content https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#user-generated-content
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    This is always the trade-off with regulation and whichever approach a regulation takes there are always people, sometimes (usually?) the same people, who will claim the other approach is the only viable option. If the regulation is written with specificity, e.g “Must use size 12pt Times New Roman font” then the argument is: “But this one-size-fits-all approach doesn’t make sense for my $business. It’s not that I don’t want to comply but as a business owner I need common-sense rules that give me leeway to implement them in a way that makes sense for my company and my customers. Otherwise I risk getting sued and that wouldn’t be fair.” And if the regulation is written with flexibility, e.g. “Must use a legible font of reasonably appropriate size” then the argument is: “But I just run a $business, how am I supposed to know what font is legible and what size is reasonably appropriate? It’s not that I don’t want to comply but as a business owner I need guidance so I know what it is I’m supposed to do. Otherwise I risk getting sued and that wouldn’t be fair.” And around and around we go making painstakingly incremental progress because of bad-faith arguments.
TigeriusKirk 5y ago
HN would fail the accessibility guidelines with the low-contrast downvoted comments. "People with limited vision or color blindness cannot read text if there is not enough contrast between the text and background (for example, light gray text on a light-colored background)."
- gkop 5y ago
  Yep, and the horrifically small and close together click targets. Due to its simplicity however, HN is already heads and shoulders above so much of the modern web in its a11y-friendliness.