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Is it just me or do mechanical keyboard aficionados sound strangely like audiophiles? I've worked on all sorts of keyboards since 1982, and I honestly can't se

Is it just me or do mechanical keyboard aficionados sound strangely like audiophiles? I've worked on all sorts of keyboards since 1982, and I honestly can't see what all the hububb is about. The effect on your job performance is so minimal that it hardly seems worth worrying about beyond "is it comfortable?" and "does it annoy people around me?". It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most.

atoav 5y ago
They can, for sure. I am someone who values a good mechanical keyboard, but I just need one and it will last me decades. Investing once into something that feels good to use every day is worth it totally. As a musician (and electrical engineer aka someone who trusts measurements and blind tests over golden ears) I like mechanical keyboards because there is "more expression" to the typing. With black linear switches that can be typed totally silent (e.g. if I record, mix or my girlfriend is asleep) or hammered on if I feel like it. It is sturdy, doesn't float around on my desk, the keycaps feel good etc.
- RegBarclay 5y ago
  >Investing once into something that feels good to use every day is worth it totally. My mechanical keyboard makes me happy. Does it matter if that's some kind of placebo effect or confirmation bias? Nope.
qzw 5y ago
In my experience, <any>philes end up sounding the same. Once you start enjoying something for its own sake, going overboard becomes the whole point.
pm90 5y ago
A good keyboard does have tangible effects on your job performance by reducing strain on your wrists. But once you get a mechanical keyboard, I agree the benefits might be a bit overstated or perhaps only folks attuned to it can really tell. When I started programming I used the cheapest external keyboards. I thought the Mac external keyboards were supposed to be good (because Apple). Then I got my first mechanical split keyboard and it made programming so much easier on my wrists.
joaodlf 5y ago
Hobbies that translate to your profession (like keyboards to programmers or headphones/amps to audio professionals) can very much become placebo. Unless you are financially crippling yourself over the "hobby", it's OK. I have a few keyboards lying around (I've returned a couple as well in the past), I like to change it up every once in a while. It often gives me that little extra push to work on something I might find boring.
FeepingCreature 5y ago
I have a Kinesis Advantage 2. It's not at all about performance, in fact I still type slower with it. The entire point is that I have pretty broad shoulders and so typing on a normal keyboard, my hands are at a very awkward "up-and-out" angle. With the Advantage 2, my hands are straight with the wrist, pointed inwards and slightly down, and need to move very little. It's pretty relaxing. (Though whoever decided that alt-tab should require a crazy hand-spread gesture with the outside fingers spread wide, needs to have their head checked. And the function keys are an affront against all that is good in the world.)
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  That falls under "is it comfortable".
  - FeepingCreature 5y ago
    Sure but I mean there's a level of "is it comfortable" where you use a tool all day and "it is uncomfortable" can literally mean "it gives me rsi, making me unable to do my job."
- _huayra_ 5y ago
  You really ought to consider a split keyboard. I'm also broad-shouldered, and the Advantage still caused inward rotation of my arms (i.e. activating my chest muscles to pull my hands inward). With split keyboards, you can place the two halves as far apart as you want, tent them (rotate them outward), etc. It's really an RSI game changer, especially if you have a sit/stand desk. I think Kinesis is coming out with a split board version of it soon, but the Moonlander and Ergodox EZ are also good options you can get now (I have these).
  - skeeterbug 5y ago
    Do you have a preference on the Moonlander vs Ergodox?
    - 5y ago
rgoulter 5y ago
I feel like "it's split and column-staggered" is different than "this switch has this actuation curve" or "it's lubricated with this grease". I find typing with Dvorak so much more comfortable than typing with QWERTY; and it's a nicer experience typing on a symmetrical keyboard than on the standard row-staggered layout. Though, yes.. it's an individual thing. I'd say arguing about keyboards is a bit like arguing over which text editor is best.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
They do. To me it's not about productivity it's about making my computer more pleasant to use. I've never felt less productive at work on a $20 Dell keyboard.
crispyambulance 5y ago
> It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most. The keyboard is actually a very intimate aspect of your interaction with your computer. For many folks this is important. Minutia about the "effect on performance" is not really a concern (IMHO if people are being honest). The real thing is how the keyboard FEELS, the sensory feedback-- sounds, tactile and appearance. It's also a way to customize something to your liking even if you're "doing a job" on the computer, much like wearing a tie of one's choice gave corporate workers an outlet for some individual expression back in the day. I doubt anyone "argues" about keyboards unless they're being forced to use one they don't like. And most folks can do just fine on a wide variety of keyboards-- although the really alien-ones like the Atreus and those hipster ortho's necessitate a learning curve and motor skills development.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  > It's also a way to customize something to your liking This too. It can be another way to express yourself. The same reason people care about desktop UI, wallpaper, themes, etc.
- black_puppydog 5y ago
  > I doubt anyone "argues" about keyboards unless they're being forced to use one they don't like. This! I was fine with just about any keyboard I had, including random scrap ones I got from various employers whenever I needed one for some reason. The standard 10 bucks models. Until I got my XPS13 2in1 and the keyboard was so abysmally bad that I had an allergic reaction to it and went all-in on mechanical keyboards. I finally ended up with one of "the really alien-ones": the Let's Tango which is a "hipster ortho" :P Edit: had pasted the wrong quote :D
  - aaronmu 5y ago
    I've been using a Planck for the past couple of months but after seeing your post I'll have to get a "Let's Tango". Why oh why did I have to see this. I was satisfied.
JustLurking2022 5y ago
I thought the same until I tried a couple, and then tried going back to a membrane keyboard at the office. In addition to better wrist comfort, I also find that I have fewer typos on the mechanical keyboard - my intuitive guess is that it's due to greater travel and resistance required to actuate a key. Everyone has their own preferences but, for something I use 8 hours a day as part of my profession, $100 for a decent keyboard seems entirely reasonable. Plenty of contractors have fancy trucks/tool boxes/tools that cost way more. Also, it's not comparable to a stool for a guitarist - that would be my desk chair, which cost more than the keyboard.
- tasuki 5y ago
  > I also find that I have fewer typos on the mechanical keyboard - my intuitive guess is that it's due to greater travel and resistance required to actuate a key. In what way could greater travel and resistance lead to fewer typos?
  - yeahboats 5y ago
    You would be less likely to register accidental key presses.
  - gh02t 5y ago
    Harder to accidentally bump extra keys unintentionally. Which is a problem I sometimes have on really low travel keys like on Macbooks.
  - doubled112 5y ago
    As a real world example: Cherry MX Red and clones engage at about a mm from the top and require almost no pressure to activate. Simply resting your hands on the keys is enough to get accidental keystrokes. Every single miss gets you a key press. Blues engage about halfway down at the click. You can accidentally touch keys without activating them. They are harder to press so resting on them doesn't activate them either.
Zababa 5y ago
To me they don't sound like audiophiles. The keyboard in this article is $365. Audiophiles can put $10 000 in a cable. A cheap keyboard is like $20, my current keyboard is around $100. If you map it to something like car prices, cheap keyboards are like old used cars, something like mine a new car, and the keyboard in this article something like an Audi. We're still not on the Ferrari order of magnitude, or even the audiophile.
- kstenerud 5y ago
  $365 for a computer keyboard is well into the vanity stage.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    A Microsoft ergonomic keyboard costs about $130. A special ergonomic mouse -- the kind a couple of my colleagues had on medical advice after some RSI issues -- costs almost $500. For vanity, see the standard Apple keyboard, which costs about $200.
    - Geeek 5y ago
      Do you mind naming the mice your colleagues are using?
      - Symbiote 5y ago
        RollerMouse: https://contour-design.co.uk/products/centred-mice/ https://contour-design.co.uk/products/centred-mice/
  - NateEag 5y ago
    Where is the split, mechanical, symmetrical ortholinear with customizable firmware and thumb clusters that costs meaningfully less than that? I wound up on the ErgoDox EZ due to wrist and arm pain that it helped significantly. All of those features contributed to the pain reduction, as far as I can tell (based on the slow series of keyboard changes I went through). This is not a rhetorical question - if there's a significantly cheaper option that meets my needs, I want to know.
timw4mail 5y ago
The keyboard is the main input device for a computer. It's like a classical guitarist arguing over the best guitar. That said, after years of trying different boards, with different switches, I only see three ranks of keyboards: mediocre (most cheap rubber dome), good (most mechanical switches), and better (the most subjective, Model F buckling spring for me). The improvement from mediocre to good is larger than the improvement from good to better. As long as keyboard is not tiring or hurting your hands and wrists, it's probably good enough for you.
- skeyo 5y ago
  the difference being a nice guitar will sound better than a crappy one, and the purpose of playing a guitar is to create nice sound. sure, a mechanical keyboard may feel and sound better than a crappy one, but the purpose is to create input for a computer and it doesn't matter what it feels or sounds like (aside from enjoyment for the user)
  - majewsky 5y ago
    I see you have not had RSI yet.
    - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
      But will that be solved by a good mechanical keyboard, or good ergonomics? You can certainly buy non-mechanical ergonomic keyboards.
      - kesslern 5y ago
        If you want an ergonomic keyboard with a configurable thumb cluster I'm fairly certain your only options are mechanical.
        NateEag 5y ago
        This is exactly how I wound up on an ErgoDox EZ.
noir_lord 5y ago
At the extreme edge of anything you find the strange people, I like those people they are the ones who push things forwards for the rest of us. For years I swore by the Ergo 4000, it was and is an excellent ergonomic keyboard however it's also huge and not brilliant for gaming so I had a look around at what smaller mechanical keyboards exist and landed on a cheap 88ish mechanical (plan was buy a cheap one, if I liked the format upgrade to a better one with the same layout but the cheap one was so pleasant I stuck with it). At the end of the day there is a massive degree of user preference in this stuff, some people don't care about the keyboard at all, others find a bad keyboard crippling, in my case I switched to the ergo years ago because I had shoulder/wrist pain which is largely solved however I've found the small form factor mechanical to be just as comfortable with a wrist rest and it has the big win that the mouse isn't way off to the right).
augusto-moura 5y ago
If you spend too much time in one thing, maybe you should consider spending a bit of money in it. As a full time developer and hard user of computers in my free time, a good desk, keyboard and chair is essential. I will probably spend a quarter of my life in these, so yeah, it's worth it. Same logic applies for my bed and my smartphone
michaelcampbell 5y ago
Every area of interest has its "cults", I'm sure whatever you're into has its as well. For me, I like MK's, and I have a particular like. I type for a living so I want to optimize the joy. Maybe I'm overly sensitive about it, maybe I'm slightly up on the autism spectrum, I honestly don't know. My family has noted my oversensitivity to many things; tags on t-shirts, when socks (worn) or rugs have wrinkles or even if the rug-pad has a wrinkle; I'm accused of being the princess and the pea. Your analogy is wildly off though; I suspect to push your point. The classical guitarist without a stool at all could still play, without a keyboard I could not. There are 2 broad categories about working with things. One is you customize it to your "artisinal, bespoke" way and are happy about that. The other is you adjust yourself to it and get on with it. Either is valid. "The reasonable man adjusts to his environment, the unreasonable man adjusts his environment to him. Thus, all progress is made by unreasonable men."
- Sebb767 5y ago
  > I'm accused of being the princess and the pea. It's "on the pea". This saying originates from a princess being so sensitive that she can't sleep with a pea below her mattress. Sorry for being a princess on the pea about this one ;-)
  - michaelcampbell 5y ago
    Cite?
  - jhardy54 5y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Pea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Pea
tharne 5y ago
> It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most. Keyboard aficionado here. Why all the fuss over keyboards?, because it's fun. In particular, it's wonderful to have a product where craftsmanship is at the forefront.
pseudonymcoward 5y ago
It's not just you. There's a community on reddit called "mechanicalheadpens" centered around the overlapping interests in mechanical keyboards, audiophile headphones, and fountain pens. Hence "mechanicalheadpens".
- grimjack00 5y ago
  I did not need to know that.
  - alecbz 5y ago
    "before and after you discover the subreddit for a hobby" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZK8Z8hulFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZK8Z8hulFg
- codethief 5y ago
  For the lazy: https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanicalheadpens/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanicalheadpens/
- jorvi 5y ago
  I’ve talked about this with some of my fellow aficionados, that some things just have a spark, an ‘X’ factor and that despite some of those things not being your thing you can still appreciate the ‘X’ factor in them. This can be well-made music, a mechanical device (headphones, watch, gun, car, keyboard), a TV show, a painting, a joke routine etc. I have no name for them but there is a particular type of person that can see the ‘X’ factor in Illmatic, a Subaru boxer engine, an M4 assault rifle, a well-modded pair of headphones, a Rembrandt and a clever joke, despite not being into hip-hop, preferring electric cars, being pro gun control, mostly listening music in their car, preferring modern art, and never really being much for jokes.
bhedgeoser 5y ago
They are an overpriced solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I've had membrane keyboards that were better than any of the mechanical ones I've bought.
- brimble 5y ago
  I think the late-90s/early-00s Sun keyboards were membrane, and they felt great IMO.
- bbojan 5y ago
  You're missing the whole split/ortholinear/reduced key count aspect of these custom keyboards.
modzu 5y ago
its much more like classical guitarists arguing about classical guitars. a layperson could not tell the difference. but the guitarists have all sorts of opinions, and notably, not regarding one single quality: it might be sound, it might be feel, it might be the history of a guitar. similarly, the keyboard is your interface to the computer: i love my mechanical because it is a joy to bang on. it bounces around and is so tactile and satisfying to play with, i could code on it all day. there is no objective metric by which to measure this. like the guitars, any keyboard will do the job within the same order of magnitude (typing speed, response time, whatever), but the attachment between these special devices and their owners is legitimate
- kstenerud 5y ago
  As a classical guitarist, I do understand and can easily tell the quality difference in guitars (which is why I didn't use it as an analogy). As a professional software developer with decades of experience covering almost every keyboard type known to man, I can honestly say the characteristics of the various keyboard types aren't enough to matter, other than as a comfort or RSI or vanity thing. I've never found a $100 vs a $20 keyboard to affect my performance. I HAVE, however, found the difference between a $500 and $3000 guitar to be quite noticeable. It's hard to go back to a cheap guitar from a good one. It's not at all hard to go from a $300 keyboard to a $30 one. I used the footstool analogy because I could just as easily see people obsessing over it like with keyboards, fountain pens, and audio equipment (getting high precision angle and height control, presets for different musical styles, different grip surfaces and build material, etc).
  - modzu 5y ago
    i think of jack white who sounds awesome playing on a plank of wood for a guitar. such a guitarist might say your $3000 instrument is a vanity thing as well. speaking from my own experience, a topre keyboard or a heavily damped backplated keyboard with red switches invites me to type all day. so its subjective. i guess here i see the analogy to the footstool but id argue its more like your chair (and man, just look at the chairs in the valley...). your chair wont make you an elite software developer. but elite software developers tend to notice their ass is seated in this thing all day every day and they take it seriously.
perardi 5y ago
As with everything, it’s possible to get just far too down the rabbit hole and chase increasingly marginal, and possibly imaginary, improvements. (You should see my dad’s 8 tackle boxes full of fishing lures.) But…if you’re a developer or writer or anybody else who is using a computer 8 hours a day, the keyboard does matter. It is your instrument, and not the foot stool—it’s the primary way you’re entering real information into the computer. So it’s not crazy to be a little picky.
chevill 5y ago
>Is it just me or do mechanical keyboard aficionados sound strangely like audiophiles? In some ways perhaps. In most ways not really. There are hundreds of mechanical key switches and many of them feel significantly different from one another. There are indeed bad switches and there are indeed good switches but 99.99% of them fall into the "good category". There's no objectively "best" switch. There are so many types that are good and will last practically forever that its just a matter of personal preference for the way they sound and feel. Some people like quiet switches. Some like clicky. Some like tactility. Some like smoothness. Some people need ergonomic features like split layouts and tilting. Some people prefer standard layouts. I have some very expensive keyboards (rare vintage stuff and modern custom builds) but in regards to custom boards, once you get over $300-400, you're basically paying for fashion/brand names/artificial scarcity/aesthetic craftsmanship and not utility. Honestly a $60 GMMK with a person's favorite switch (probably around $30-60 more depending on what you want and how big of a layout you use) and a $30-50 set of keycaps will get you 90% of the value that people get out of more expensive brands. Audiophiles' hobby includes a bunch of stuff that literally has no impact on anything. For some things there's no added value even when taking only aesthetics/superficial stuff into account. There is audiophile hardware that makes a real impact, but there are also people that swear that their absurdly expensive accessory X provides a significant difference when hooking it up to a signal analyzer proves otherwise. With keyboards you are generally either paying for a fashion accessory or an actual discernable difference in the way something feels and which one you are paying for is usually obvious going in. Both hobbies suffer from diminishing returns that hit hard and fast. You don't have to be a wealthy person to get a great experience from audio or mechanical keyboards.
xboxnolifes 5y ago
> The effect on your job performance is so minimal that... People aren't looking at their hobby as a job improver.
pozol 5y ago
A lot of people are saying it’s not about performance and it’s more about feel. I need to jump in that the performance gain is a big deal for me. You can program a lot of these boards so any key does whatever you want. So I’ve customized mine to be very efficient for vim keybindings, for example, and it has improved my coding efficiency significantly. So I definitely get the downsides of spending hundreds on the “next best switch” or whatever, but for me there are concrete improvements to my efficiency.
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
I don't know how much of an aficionado I am. I had a Dell keyboard that I purchased back in 1996 that lasted me for about 16 years. Loved it. Thing was a heavy brick and felt great. Then I wandered around through the various membrane keyboards for years, just using whatever came my way. When I needed a new one, I purchased a cheap Red Dragon keyboard. No numpad, but I never used it anyway, and it felt great. Bought a second one, and even though it was the exact same model, they changed the keycaps. So I did what any rational person who always forgets to return things does and bought a KVM switch. I will use this thing until it dies and then explore my options.
runjake 5y ago
Mechanical keyboard user (but non-fetishist) here. For me, it's about comfort and perhaps a tinge of nostalgia. It feels good to type on and I like the audio and physical feedbacks. That said, my whole process was: I just tried a couple of mechanical keyboards others had, and decided on one (Keychron K8). It works well enough for me, and I don't go sifting around online for the latest/greatest mechanical keyboard.
- scrumbledober 5y ago
  I also have a keychron, and I love that it just feels good and gets out of the way. I like the tactile feedback of mechanical keyboards but i don't want it to be too flashy. (the windows/osx switch and extra keys are also a huge bonus)
tristor 5y ago
I've pretty much exclusively used mechanical keyboards my entire life. A brief stint where I wasn't using them lead to me having RSI, and I've since switched back and importantly switched to an ergonomic keyboard design. I don't think the comparison to audiophiles is apt (although I'm one of those too, of sorts), because a keyboard is the primary and most critical input device for both work and play when you have your life devoted to computing. I spend 10-12 hours on a computer nearly every single day, the ROI for splashing out $700 for a custom ergonomic mechanical keyboard is immensely better than spending that money doing anything else. In pure EV/economic sense, spending big on a mechanical keyboard is a fantastic decision if you work/live on a computer.
- ajford 5y ago
  I'm right there with you on the RSI front. But I do see GP's point on some of the audiophile feel, given the number of people who focus on the acoustics and appearance of their KB. What KB are you using? I've got a Moonlander that I'm (pardon the pun) over the moon about. The Advantage 360 is very tempting with the curved key wells. So is the glove80. But I would really prefer something that was hot-swapable with curved key wells.
ajford 5y ago
So I feel there's two sides to the hobby, the aesthetic side and the function/feel side. There are plenty of people who customize their KBs for aesthetics first and plenty who focus on function/feel. And I think the number of people who focus on exclusively one side is almost non-existent. Sure, there's a lot of people who talk about the thock or clack of this key or that, but for some it's all about the feel to their hands or the comfort of typing on a particular type of KB. I've suffered from RSI in my pinky and ring fingers for over a decade now. If I spend too long (greater than 2-3 hrs) typing on a standard 104-style keyboard or laptop KB, the pain flares up. If I don't desist within a day or two, I start loosing grip and arm strength, to the point where I was unable to hold onto coffee cups or soup cans. For a long time, I used the Microsoft Natural 4000 [0], a split membrane KB. I probably bought about 10 of them over a 5yr period, and I think I still have 3 in the closet. But moving to a split mechanical was like going from sleeping on the floor to sleeping on a cloud. I could adjust the tenting and angle perfectly for my body, so it feels natural to me. I was able to try out a half-dozen key switches 'til I landed on one that was quiet but still gave a lot of tactile feedback on switch activation. So yeah, there's definitely a bunch of aesthetic mumbo-jumbo that most people don't care about, but there's a lot in there that's not just thock & clack.
- doix 5y ago
  You sound just like me! What split keyboard did you end up going with? I used the microsoft keyboard for years as well, but then my shoulders started acting up and I figured I needed a split keyboard and bought a Moonlander.
  - ajford 5y ago
    Small world! I too have a Moonlander, with Boba u4 switches and some Amazon special SA keycaps. I'm tempted by the Advantage 360 or the Glove80 for their curved keywells, but I really want hot-swap without needed to desolder anything. Might just go for a Dactyl of some flavor and make my own.
    - chevill 5y ago
WhyNotHugo 5y ago
Personally, I ended up in this niche world because of discomforts, RSI and other similar motor issues. Mechanical keyboards are also programmable, so I can move around keys to avoid painful or unhealthy movements and combinations. With harder switches I can also feel my finger and hands getting tired faster than with smoother switches. Oh yeah, and the arrow keys are usually super inconvenient to use if you touch-type all day. Having a special modifier to use vim motion keys everywhere is really handy. I don't speak for all aficionados of course. Plenty of people do it for fun or merely to research new way to build keyboards.
deltarholamda 5y ago
I prefer mechanical keyboards because, when I started using computers, pretty much all the keyboards on Real Computers (as opposed to C64s or Timex Sinclairs or whatever) were mechanical. I learned how to properly type in a Keyboarding class in high school that was done on IBM Selectrics. That's what I associate with a "good keyboard." I can certainly use something else, and often do, but one of the things I look for in a laptop is a good keyboard. It's my primary interface with a computer, and therefore it's worth paying attention to. That said, the people who adopt a mechanical keyboard all mention the comfort of the clicky-keys. I agree with this. The feedback means I have an indication that I'm typing what I type that doesn't require the mental round-trip of seeing it on the screen first. The membrane keyboards are a lot better now, but every now and then you get one that's particularly mushy. I find myself striking the keys harder, which tires out the tiny joints in your fingers.
twmiller 5y ago
Hrm. I dunno. I recently picked up a couple of old laptops to goof around on (a 2003 Thinkpad T41 and a 2005 iBook G4) and both of them (laptops!) have keyboards that are so much better than my modern keyboards that I was sort of taken aback. I think we’ve slowly been fed worse and worse keyboards for so long that we don’t realize what we’ve actually lost. I’d say the difference is more tangible than a $250 gold-coated cable.
- black_puppydog 5y ago
  I'd love to go back to my old lenovo consumer-grade thinkpad. butter-soft rubber dome, upgradable hardware... I ran that thing with so many replacement parts and upgrades, only a broken mainboard and lack of AVX instructions made me switch. Really it was just the AVX instructions. But since it is modular, I have now removed both hdd drives and the wifi card (yes, you can do that in these old devices. crazy, I know!) and now it is a very nice offline writing device. Syncing happens on LAN via syncthing when I plug it into ethernet
egypturnash 5y ago
More like guitarists discussing guitars, IMHO. Lots of people from beginner to master do just fine with six strings tuned to EADGBE but some people get into left-handed tunings or three necks with different tunings on each or a Chapman Stick or some other weird custom instrument. It’s a deep rabbit hole you can go down, with a lot of equipment to buy and experiment with along the way. A lot of it has little actual effect, but every now and then you find something that really works for you and makes the daily grind at the craft much more pleasant. And also it’s fun to play on that cool looking guitar with a custom paint job or to type on that cool custom keyboard: this is my instrument. (Me, my main keyboard change is mapping caps lock to cmd-alt-shift and fn-x to cmd-shift-x, both in the service of reducing the amount of complex knots I have to tie my fingers in to hit my many Illustrator hotkeys.)
arvinsim 5y ago
There is a difference from audiophiles. Unlike audio, people can objectively see and feel the difference when you use different keycaps, switches, etc.
- alecbz 5y ago
  Huh? You can also notice objective differences in audio. Whether those differences are good or not is subjective, but that applies to both keyboards and audio.
- bobkazamakis 5y ago
  ah yes, famously audio cannot be measured and does not have any quantitative properties.
asiachick 5y ago
I see it more as similar to the hotrod/car enthusiast scene. A certain crowd loves to spend time customizing their cars. Mechanical keyboards seem similar to me. It's just a fun activity. A friend of mine got into it, designing custom PCBs, designing layered laser cut acrylic or 3d printed cases. They've made 5-6 keyboards. Some small, some split, some angular, the latest one is curved. They sent me one of their designs and it was fun to build one, though expensive. Total cost with all tools etc for me at least was ~$700. But hey, I'm an overpaid engineer and I a the keyboard 8-12hrs a day. I've been using it since I built it (18 months or so)
alecbz 5y ago
I used to use mechanicals with fancy layouts, but ended up getting annoyed having to switch between the fancy layout and QWERTY when working from my laptop. I was then just using QWERTY mechanicals for a while, until at one point I realized I actually was typing faster on my Mac's keyboard. So I got an external magic keyboard, and I've been pretty happy with that. I think maybe eventually I'd like to try a low-profile mechanical keyboard, but in general I think I don't see the appeal of regular "high travel" mechanical keyboards. They can feel "fun" but make me type slower.
munificent 5y ago
There's a component of human psychology where it just feels good to optimize a thing. It seems to be particularly prevalent in men, especially those of the technical persuasion. The funny thing about it is that it feels good to optimize a thing regardless of how important that things actual performance is. So you see all kinds of hobbies where people spend inordinate effort eking maximum performance out of shit that just doesn't matter: * Audiophiles, as you note * CPU overclocking * Punkin chunkin * Hypermiling * Tether cars (These hobbies always have names. I think it distinguishes the pursuit of optimization for its own sake from simply trying to improve a thing for functional reasons.) The point isn't the performance, it's just the enjoyment of making a number go up. In many ways, the less useful the number is, the more enjoyable it is top optimize. Because when the performance doesn't actually matter, it means the stakes are lower, failure isn't harmful, and it feels more like play and less like work. It's easy to criticize people for putting huge effort into improving things where the benefit is not at all commensurate with the effort. But the thing to realize is that the optimization isn't the justification for the effort. It's the joy of doing it in the first place.
- president 5y ago
  Optimizing things makes people feel good because we enjoy progress as it gives us a sense of productivity and accomplishment.
- akaij 5y ago
  > * Audiophiles, as you note I am not an audiophile, but I hear some variation of this mostly from people who have never listened to exceptional masters using really good audio equipment. Sure, the cost/performance ratio is usually prohibitive, but once you have that experience, I don't know how it can be objectively called "shit that just doesn't matter". There is also using the aforementioned setup when high. For people who like doing it, the difference is even more obvious, and the ratio starts looking reasonable.
  - munificent 5y ago
    Audio is tricky because, yes, there is a part of the quality curve where better gear and setup really does matter. But there is a large segment of the curve beyond that where it's like... homeopathic electronics. A $50,000 HDMI cable is not going to improve your listening experience. I think of "audiophile" as encompassing a little more of the latter than the former, but yes the term is ambiguous.
Melatonic 5y ago
Theres a huge upgrade in my opinion just going to a basic mechanical - but of course very rapidly diminishing returns after that. Wait a bit and look around and you can get something pretty decent for less than 50$
dyingkneepad 5y ago
To me, going from membrane to mechanical was not a huge change, especially since in the end I don't really like MX Browns that much. Also because I figured I really like low profile keys. The huge game changer from me was to use a split keyboard with layers and macros (and switches better than mx browns). The split by itself makes you 1000% more comfortable, and the layers and macros help even more. You should try :)
starwind 5y ago
yeah my mechanical keyboard doesn't improve my performance at all. But I think it feels better to type on and I like the clicky sound. If you use something all day might-as-well enjoy that thing
at-fates-hands 5y ago
>> It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most. Reminds of when I worked in a bike shop and I was a mountain biking. Mostly single track and some DH. I never understood the roadies who were constantly in search of taking grams, GRAMS off of their bikes. I remember two guys talking about pedals and they were literally talking about how much better their bikes were weighing 5 grams less than they do now. As a mountain biker, I'd have 5 grams of mud on my shoes inside of 10 mins on the trail so I never understood the obsession with weight with roadies.
ok123456 5y ago
It's a slight premium for a low-end mechanical keyboard, about $40, that won't wear out nearly as fast as a rubber dome keyboard. The cheap keyboards that you get with a new computer are usually very low quality and not really intended for hours of daily use every day. Just get a quiet switch that won't annoy everyone around you if you're in an office environment.
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RedBeetDeadpool 5y ago
I would say its more akin to sneakerheads. 1. Its about the interface between your feet/hands and travelling across their respective landscapes. 2. Different shoes/keyboards lets to travel with differing levels of comfort. Sure you dont need a pair of nikes to run, and you don't necessarily need a separate pair of shoes for the winter, or for that matter roller-shoes, but they certainly make travelling across the landscape significantly more comfortable (or just different) for various uses. More than just that, people who love to buy shoes love to buy shoes of varying types even if they don't necessarily need it. Keep in mind, programmers are only one class of people who travel across the digital landscape.
agumonkey 5y ago
Everything is important but weighed properly. A good keyboard adds pleasure and avoids fatigue to editing. But most of the time the real value is in prior thinking and planning (to minimize editing to an extent)
dayvid 5y ago
I had a few months when I went down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole, constantly trying different switches and keyboards out. Honestly, my favorite mechanical keyboard was something I bought on Amazon for $40. I can understand if you want to customize your aesthetic, but I don't really are about that. It's the same with audio. I dabbled in hi-fi headphones and amplifiers, but it's so damn inconvenient and you wind up hyper-specializing into a non-portable setup. You're better off getting the versatile setup that's 80-90% there and costs less than half the premium cost.
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atoav 5y ago

They can, for sure. I am someone who values a good mechanical keyboard, but I just need one and it will last me decades. Investing once into something that feels good to use every day is worth it totally. As a musician (and electrical engineer aka someone who trusts measurements and blind tests over golden ears) I like mechanical keyboards because there is "more expression" to the typing. With black linear switches that can be typed totally silent (e.g. if I record, mix or my girlfriend is asleep) or hammered on if I feel like it. It is sturdy, doesn't float around on my desk, the keycaps feel good etc.

RegBarclay 5y ago
>Investing once into something that feels good to use every day is worth it totally. My mechanical keyboard makes me happy. Does it matter if that's some kind of placebo effect or confirmation bias? Nope.

qzw 5y ago

In my experience, <any>philes end up sounding the same. Once you start enjoying something for its own sake, going overboard becomes the whole point.

pm90 5y ago

A good keyboard does have tangible effects on your job performance by reducing strain on your wrists. But once you get a mechanical keyboard, I agree the benefits might be a bit overstated or perhaps only folks attuned to it can really tell. When I started programming I used the cheapest external keyboards. I thought the Mac external keyboards were supposed to be good (because Apple). Then I got my first mechanical split keyboard and it made programming so much easier on my wrists.

joaodlf 5y ago

Hobbies that translate to your profession (like keyboards to programmers or headphones/amps to audio professionals) can very much become placebo. Unless you are financially crippling yourself over the "hobby", it's OK. I have a few keyboards lying around (I've returned a couple as well in the past), I like to change it up every once in a while. It often gives me that little extra push to work on something I might find boring.

FeepingCreature 5y ago

I have a Kinesis Advantage 2. It's not at all about performance, in fact I still type slower with it. The entire point is that I have pretty broad shoulders and so typing on a normal keyboard, my hands are at a very awkward "up-and-out" angle. With the Advantage 2, my hands are straight with the wrist, pointed inwards and slightly down, and need to move very little. It's pretty relaxing. (Though whoever decided that alt-tab should require a crazy hand-spread gesture with the outside fingers spread wide, needs to have their head checked. And the function keys are an affront against all that is good in the world.)

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
That falls under "is it comfortable".
- FeepingCreature 5y ago
  Sure but I mean there's a level of "is it comfortable" where you use a tool all day and "it is uncomfortable" can literally mean "it gives me rsi, making me unable to do my job."
_huayra_ 5y ago
You really ought to consider a split keyboard. I'm also broad-shouldered, and the Advantage still caused inward rotation of my arms (i.e. activating my chest muscles to pull my hands inward). With split keyboards, you can place the two halves as far apart as you want, tent them (rotate them outward), etc. It's really an RSI game changer, especially if you have a sit/stand desk. I think Kinesis is coming out with a split board version of it soon, but the Moonlander and Ergodox EZ are also good options you can get now (I have these).
- skeeterbug 5y ago
  Do you have a preference on the Moonlander vs Ergodox?
  - 5y ago

rgoulter 5y ago

I feel like "it's split and column-staggered" is different than "this switch has this actuation curve" or "it's lubricated with this grease". I find typing with Dvorak so much more comfortable than typing with QWERTY; and it's a nicer experience typing on a symmetrical keyboard than on the standard row-staggered layout. Though, yes.. it's an individual thing. I'd say arguing about keyboards is a bit like arguing over which text editor is best.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

They do. To me it's not about productivity it's about making my computer more pleasant to use. I've never felt less productive at work on a $20 Dell keyboard.

crispyambulance 5y ago

> It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most. The keyboard is actually a very intimate aspect of your interaction with your computer. For many folks this is important. Minutia about the "effect on performance" is not really a concern (IMHO if people are being honest). The real thing is how the keyboard FEELS, the sensory feedback-- sounds, tactile and appearance. It's also a way to customize something to your liking even if you're "doing a job" on the computer, much like wearing a tie of one's choice gave corporate workers an outlet for some individual expression back in the day. I doubt anyone "argues" about keyboards unless they're being forced to use one they don't like. And most folks can do just fine on a wide variety of keyboards-- although the really alien-ones like the Atreus and those hipster ortho's necessitate a learning curve and motor skills development.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
> It's also a way to customize something to your liking This too. It can be another way to express yourself. The same reason people care about desktop UI, wallpaper, themes, etc.
black_puppydog 5y ago
> I doubt anyone "argues" about keyboards unless they're being forced to use one they don't like. This! I was fine with just about any keyboard I had, including random scrap ones I got from various employers whenever I needed one for some reason. The standard 10 bucks models. Until I got my XPS13 2in1 and the keyboard was so abysmally bad that I had an allergic reaction to it and went all-in on mechanical keyboards. I finally ended up with one of "the really alien-ones": the Let's Tango which is a "hipster ortho" :P Edit: had pasted the wrong quote :D
- aaronmu 5y ago
  I've been using a Planck for the past couple of months but after seeing your post I'll have to get a "Let's Tango". Why oh why did I have to see this. I was satisfied.

JustLurking2022 5y ago

I thought the same until I tried a couple, and then tried going back to a membrane keyboard at the office. In addition to better wrist comfort, I also find that I have fewer typos on the mechanical keyboard - my intuitive guess is that it's due to greater travel and resistance required to actuate a key. Everyone has their own preferences but, for something I use 8 hours a day as part of my profession, $100 for a decent keyboard seems entirely reasonable. Plenty of contractors have fancy trucks/tool boxes/tools that cost way more. Also, it's not comparable to a stool for a guitarist - that would be my desk chair, which cost more than the keyboard.

tasuki 5y ago
> I also find that I have fewer typos on the mechanical keyboard - my intuitive guess is that it's due to greater travel and resistance required to actuate a key. In what way could greater travel and resistance lead to fewer typos?
- yeahboats 5y ago
  You would be less likely to register accidental key presses.
- gh02t 5y ago
  Harder to accidentally bump extra keys unintentionally. Which is a problem I sometimes have on really low travel keys like on Macbooks.
- doubled112 5y ago
  As a real world example: Cherry MX Red and clones engage at about a mm from the top and require almost no pressure to activate. Simply resting your hands on the keys is enough to get accidental keystrokes. Every single miss gets you a key press. Blues engage about halfway down at the click. You can accidentally touch keys without activating them. They are harder to press so resting on them doesn't activate them either.

Zababa 5y ago

To me they don't sound like audiophiles. The keyboard in this article is $365. Audiophiles can put $10 000 in a cable. A cheap keyboard is like $20, my current keyboard is around $100. If you map it to something like car prices, cheap keyboards are like old used cars, something like mine a new car, and the keyboard in this article something like an Audi. We're still not on the Ferrari order of magnitude, or even the audiophile.

kstenerud 5y ago
$365 for a computer keyboard is well into the vanity stage.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  A Microsoft ergonomic keyboard costs about $130. A special ergonomic mouse -- the kind a couple of my colleagues had on medical advice after some RSI issues -- costs almost $500. For vanity, see the standard Apple keyboard, which costs about $200.
  - Geeek 5y ago
    Do you mind naming the mice your colleagues are using?
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      RollerMouse: https://contour-design.co.uk/products/centred-mice/ https://contour-design.co.uk/products/centred-mice/
- NateEag 5y ago
  Where is the split, mechanical, symmetrical ortholinear with customizable firmware and thumb clusters that costs meaningfully less than that? I wound up on the ErgoDox EZ due to wrist and arm pain that it helped significantly. All of those features contributed to the pain reduction, as far as I can tell (based on the slow series of keyboard changes I went through). This is not a rhetorical question - if there's a significantly cheaper option that meets my needs, I want to know.

timw4mail 5y ago

The keyboard is the main input device for a computer. It's like a classical guitarist arguing over the best guitar. That said, after years of trying different boards, with different switches, I only see three ranks of keyboards: mediocre (most cheap rubber dome), good (most mechanical switches), and better (the most subjective, Model F buckling spring for me). The improvement from mediocre to good is larger than the improvement from good to better. As long as keyboard is not tiring or hurting your hands and wrists, it's probably good enough for you.

skeyo 5y ago
the difference being a nice guitar will sound better than a crappy one, and the purpose of playing a guitar is to create nice sound. sure, a mechanical keyboard may feel and sound better than a crappy one, but the purpose is to create input for a computer and it doesn't matter what it feels or sounds like (aside from enjoyment for the user)
- majewsky 5y ago
  I see you have not had RSI yet.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    But will that be solved by a good mechanical keyboard, or good ergonomics? You can certainly buy non-mechanical ergonomic keyboards.
    - kesslern 5y ago
      If you want an ergonomic keyboard with a configurable thumb cluster I'm fairly certain your only options are mechanical.
      - NateEag 5y ago
        This is exactly how I wound up on an ErgoDox EZ.

noir_lord 5y ago

At the extreme edge of anything you find the strange people, I like those people they are the ones who push things forwards for the rest of us. For years I swore by the Ergo 4000, it was and is an excellent ergonomic keyboard however it's also huge and not brilliant for gaming so I had a look around at what smaller mechanical keyboards exist and landed on a cheap 88ish mechanical (plan was buy a cheap one, if I liked the format upgrade to a better one with the same layout but the cheap one was so pleasant I stuck with it). At the end of the day there is a massive degree of user preference in this stuff, some people don't care about the keyboard at all, others find a bad keyboard crippling, in my case I switched to the ergo years ago because I had shoulder/wrist pain which is largely solved however I've found the small form factor mechanical to be just as comfortable with a wrist rest and it has the big win that the mouse isn't way off to the right).

augusto-moura 5y ago

If you spend too much time in one thing, maybe you should consider spending a bit of money in it. As a full time developer and hard user of computers in my free time, a good desk, keyboard and chair is essential. I will probably spend a quarter of my life in these, so yeah, it's worth it. Same logic applies for my bed and my smartphone

michaelcampbell 5y ago

Every area of interest has its "cults", I'm sure whatever you're into has its as well. For me, I like MK's, and I have a particular like. I type for a living so I want to optimize the joy. Maybe I'm overly sensitive about it, maybe I'm slightly up on the autism spectrum, I honestly don't know. My family has noted my oversensitivity to many things; tags on t-shirts, when socks (worn) or rugs have wrinkles or even if the rug-pad has a wrinkle; I'm accused of being the princess and the pea. Your analogy is wildly off though; I suspect to push your point. The classical guitarist without a stool at all could still play, without a keyboard I could not. There are 2 broad categories about working with things. One is you customize it to your "artisinal, bespoke" way and are happy about that. The other is you adjust yourself to it and get on with it. Either is valid. "The reasonable man adjusts to his environment, the unreasonable man adjusts his environment to him. Thus, all progress is made by unreasonable men."

Sebb767 5y ago
> I'm accused of being the princess and the pea. It's "on the pea". This saying originates from a princess being so sensitive that she can't sleep with a pea below her mattress. Sorry for being a princess on the pea about this one ;-)
- michaelcampbell 5y ago
  Cite?
- jhardy54 5y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Pea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Pea

tharne 5y ago

> It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most. Keyboard aficionado here. Why all the fuss over keyboards?, because it's fun. In particular, it's wonderful to have a product where craftsmanship is at the forefront.

pseudonymcoward 5y ago

It's not just you. There's a community on reddit called "mechanicalheadpens" centered around the overlapping interests in mechanical keyboards, audiophile headphones, and fountain pens. Hence "mechanicalheadpens".

grimjack00 5y ago
I did not need to know that.
- alecbz 5y ago
  "before and after you discover the subreddit for a hobby" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZK8Z8hulFg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZK8Z8hulFg
codethief 5y ago
For the lazy: https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanicalheadpens/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanicalheadpens/
jorvi 5y ago
I’ve talked about this with some of my fellow aficionados, that some things just have a spark, an ‘X’ factor and that despite some of those things not being your thing you can still appreciate the ‘X’ factor in them. This can be well-made music, a mechanical device (headphones, watch, gun, car, keyboard), a TV show, a painting, a joke routine etc. I have no name for them but there is a particular type of person that can see the ‘X’ factor in Illmatic, a Subaru boxer engine, an M4 assault rifle, a well-modded pair of headphones, a Rembrandt and a clever joke, despite not being into hip-hop, preferring electric cars, being pro gun control, mostly listening music in their car, preferring modern art, and never really being much for jokes.

bhedgeoser 5y ago

They are an overpriced solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I've had membrane keyboards that were better than any of the mechanical ones I've bought.

brimble 5y ago
I think the late-90s/early-00s Sun keyboards were membrane, and they felt great IMO.
bbojan 5y ago
You're missing the whole split/ortholinear/reduced key count aspect of these custom keyboards.

modzu 5y ago

its much more like classical guitarists arguing about classical guitars. a layperson could not tell the difference. but the guitarists have all sorts of opinions, and notably, not regarding one single quality: it might be sound, it might be feel, it might be the history of a guitar. similarly, the keyboard is your interface to the computer: i love my mechanical because it is a joy to bang on. it bounces around and is so tactile and satisfying to play with, i could code on it all day. there is no objective metric by which to measure this. like the guitars, any keyboard will do the job within the same order of magnitude (typing speed, response time, whatever), but the attachment between these special devices and their owners is legitimate

kstenerud 5y ago
As a classical guitarist, I do understand and can easily tell the quality difference in guitars (which is why I didn't use it as an analogy). As a professional software developer with decades of experience covering almost every keyboard type known to man, I can honestly say the characteristics of the various keyboard types aren't enough to matter, other than as a comfort or RSI or vanity thing. I've never found a $100 vs a $20 keyboard to affect my performance. I HAVE, however, found the difference between a $500 and $3000 guitar to be quite noticeable. It's hard to go back to a cheap guitar from a good one. It's not at all hard to go from a $300 keyboard to a $30 one. I used the footstool analogy because I could just as easily see people obsessing over it like with keyboards, fountain pens, and audio equipment (getting high precision angle and height control, presets for different musical styles, different grip surfaces and build material, etc).
- modzu 5y ago
  i think of jack white who sounds awesome playing on a plank of wood for a guitar. such a guitarist might say your $3000 instrument is a vanity thing as well. speaking from my own experience, a topre keyboard or a heavily damped backplated keyboard with red switches invites me to type all day. so its subjective. i guess here i see the analogy to the footstool but id argue its more like your chair (and man, just look at the chairs in the valley...). your chair wont make you an elite software developer. but elite software developers tend to notice their ass is seated in this thing all day every day and they take it seriously.

perardi 5y ago

As with everything, it’s possible to get just far too down the rabbit hole and chase increasingly marginal, and possibly imaginary, improvements. (You should see my dad’s 8 tackle boxes full of fishing lures.) But…if you’re a developer or writer or anybody else who is using a computer 8 hours a day, the keyboard does matter. It is your instrument, and not the foot stool—it’s the primary way you’re entering real information into the computer. So it’s not crazy to be a little picky.

chevill 5y ago

>Is it just me or do mechanical keyboard aficionados sound strangely like audiophiles? In some ways perhaps. In most ways not really. There are hundreds of mechanical key switches and many of them feel significantly different from one another. There are indeed bad switches and there are indeed good switches but 99.99% of them fall into the "good category". There's no objectively "best" switch. There are so many types that are good and will last practically forever that its just a matter of personal preference for the way they sound and feel. Some people like quiet switches. Some like clicky. Some like tactility. Some like smoothness. Some people need ergonomic features like split layouts and tilting. Some people prefer standard layouts. I have some very expensive keyboards (rare vintage stuff and modern custom builds) but in regards to custom boards, once you get over $300-400, you're basically paying for fashion/brand names/artificial scarcity/aesthetic craftsmanship and not utility. Honestly a $60 GMMK with a person's favorite switch (probably around $30-60 more depending on what you want and how big of a layout you use) and a $30-50 set of keycaps will get you 90% of the value that people get out of more expensive brands. Audiophiles' hobby includes a bunch of stuff that literally has no impact on anything. For some things there's no added value even when taking only aesthetics/superficial stuff into account. There is audiophile hardware that makes a real impact, but there are also people that swear that their absurdly expensive accessory X provides a significant difference when hooking it up to a signal analyzer proves otherwise. With keyboards you are generally either paying for a fashion accessory or an actual discernable difference in the way something feels and which one you are paying for is usually obvious going in. Both hobbies suffer from diminishing returns that hit hard and fast. You don't have to be a wealthy person to get a great experience from audio or mechanical keyboards.

xboxnolifes 5y ago

> The effect on your job performance is so minimal that... People aren't looking at their hobby as a job improver.

pozol 5y ago

A lot of people are saying it’s not about performance and it’s more about feel. I need to jump in that the performance gain is a big deal for me. You can program a lot of these boards so any key does whatever you want. So I’ve customized mine to be very efficient for vim keybindings, for example, and it has improved my coding efficiency significantly. So I definitely get the downsides of spending hundreds on the “next best switch” or whatever, but for me there are concrete improvements to my efficiency.

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

I don't know how much of an aficionado I am. I had a Dell keyboard that I purchased back in 1996 that lasted me for about 16 years. Loved it. Thing was a heavy brick and felt great. Then I wandered around through the various membrane keyboards for years, just using whatever came my way. When I needed a new one, I purchased a cheap Red Dragon keyboard. No numpad, but I never used it anyway, and it felt great. Bought a second one, and even though it was the exact same model, they changed the keycaps. So I did what any rational person who always forgets to return things does and bought a KVM switch. I will use this thing until it dies and then explore my options.

runjake 5y ago

Mechanical keyboard user (but non-fetishist) here. For me, it's about comfort and perhaps a tinge of nostalgia. It feels good to type on and I like the audio and physical feedbacks. That said, my whole process was: I just tried a couple of mechanical keyboards others had, and decided on one (Keychron K8). It works well enough for me, and I don't go sifting around online for the latest/greatest mechanical keyboard.

scrumbledober 5y ago
I also have a keychron, and I love that it just feels good and gets out of the way. I like the tactile feedback of mechanical keyboards but i don't want it to be too flashy. (the windows/osx switch and extra keys are also a huge bonus)

tristor 5y ago

I've pretty much exclusively used mechanical keyboards my entire life. A brief stint where I wasn't using them lead to me having RSI, and I've since switched back and importantly switched to an ergonomic keyboard design. I don't think the comparison to audiophiles is apt (although I'm one of those too, of sorts), because a keyboard is the primary and most critical input device for both work and play when you have your life devoted to computing. I spend 10-12 hours on a computer nearly every single day, the ROI for splashing out $700 for a custom ergonomic mechanical keyboard is immensely better than spending that money doing anything else. In pure EV/economic sense, spending big on a mechanical keyboard is a fantastic decision if you work/live on a computer.

ajford 5y ago
I'm right there with you on the RSI front. But I do see GP's point on some of the audiophile feel, given the number of people who focus on the acoustics and appearance of their KB. What KB are you using? I've got a Moonlander that I'm (pardon the pun) over the moon about. The Advantage 360 is very tempting with the curved key wells. So is the glove80. But I would really prefer something that was hot-swapable with curved key wells.

ajford 5y ago

So I feel there's two sides to the hobby, the aesthetic side and the function/feel side. There are plenty of people who customize their KBs for aesthetics first and plenty who focus on function/feel. And I think the number of people who focus on exclusively one side is almost non-existent. Sure, there's a lot of people who talk about the thock or clack of this key or that, but for some it's all about the feel to their hands or the comfort of typing on a particular type of KB. I've suffered from RSI in my pinky and ring fingers for over a decade now. If I spend too long (greater than 2-3 hrs) typing on a standard 104-style keyboard or laptop KB, the pain flares up. If I don't desist within a day or two, I start loosing grip and arm strength, to the point where I was unable to hold onto coffee cups or soup cans. For a long time, I used the Microsoft Natural 4000 [0], a split membrane KB. I probably bought about 10 of them over a 5yr period, and I think I still have 3 in the closet. But moving to a split mechanical was like going from sleeping on the floor to sleeping on a cloud. I could adjust the tenting and angle perfectly for my body, so it feels natural to me. I was able to try out a half-dozen key switches 'til I landed on one that was quiet but still gave a lot of tactile feedback on switch activation. So yeah, there's definitely a bunch of aesthetic mumbo-jumbo that most people don't care about, but there's a lot in there that's not just thock & clack.

doix 5y ago
You sound just like me! What split keyboard did you end up going with? I used the microsoft keyboard for years as well, but then my shoulders started acting up and I figured I needed a split keyboard and bought a Moonlander.
- ajford 5y ago
  Small world! I too have a Moonlander, with Boba u4 switches and some Amazon special SA keycaps. I'm tempted by the Advantage 360 or the Glove80 for their curved keywells, but I really want hot-swap without needed to desolder anything. Might just go for a Dactyl of some flavor and make my own.
  - chevill 5y ago

WhyNotHugo 5y ago

Personally, I ended up in this niche world because of discomforts, RSI and other similar motor issues. Mechanical keyboards are also programmable, so I can move around keys to avoid painful or unhealthy movements and combinations. With harder switches I can also feel my finger and hands getting tired faster than with smoother switches. Oh yeah, and the arrow keys are usually super inconvenient to use if you touch-type all day. Having a special modifier to use vim motion keys everywhere is really handy. I don't speak for all aficionados of course. Plenty of people do it for fun or merely to research new way to build keyboards.

deltarholamda 5y ago

I prefer mechanical keyboards because, when I started using computers, pretty much all the keyboards on Real Computers (as opposed to C64s or Timex Sinclairs or whatever) were mechanical. I learned how to properly type in a Keyboarding class in high school that was done on IBM Selectrics. That's what I associate with a "good keyboard." I can certainly use something else, and often do, but one of the things I look for in a laptop is a good keyboard. It's my primary interface with a computer, and therefore it's worth paying attention to. That said, the people who adopt a mechanical keyboard all mention the comfort of the clicky-keys. I agree with this. The feedback means I have an indication that I'm typing what I type that doesn't require the mental round-trip of seeing it on the screen first. The membrane keyboards are a lot better now, but every now and then you get one that's particularly mushy. I find myself striking the keys harder, which tires out the tiny joints in your fingers.

twmiller 5y ago

Hrm. I dunno. I recently picked up a couple of old laptops to goof around on (a 2003 Thinkpad T41 and a 2005 iBook G4) and both of them (laptops!) have keyboards that are so much better than my modern keyboards that I was sort of taken aback. I think we’ve slowly been fed worse and worse keyboards for so long that we don’t realize what we’ve actually lost. I’d say the difference is more tangible than a $250 gold-coated cable.

black_puppydog 5y ago
I'd love to go back to my old lenovo consumer-grade thinkpad. butter-soft rubber dome, upgradable hardware... I ran that thing with so many replacement parts and upgrades, only a broken mainboard and lack of AVX instructions made me switch. Really it was just the AVX instructions. But since it is modular, I have now removed both hdd drives and the wifi card (yes, you can do that in these old devices. crazy, I know!) and now it is a very nice offline writing device. Syncing happens on LAN via syncthing when I plug it into ethernet

egypturnash 5y ago

More like guitarists discussing guitars, IMHO. Lots of people from beginner to master do just fine with six strings tuned to EADGBE but some people get into left-handed tunings or three necks with different tunings on each or a Chapman Stick or some other weird custom instrument. It’s a deep rabbit hole you can go down, with a lot of equipment to buy and experiment with along the way. A lot of it has little actual effect, but every now and then you find something that really works for you and makes the daily grind at the craft much more pleasant. And also it’s fun to play on that cool looking guitar with a custom paint job or to type on that cool custom keyboard: this is my instrument. (Me, my main keyboard change is mapping caps lock to cmd-alt-shift and fn-x to cmd-shift-x, both in the service of reducing the amount of complex knots I have to tie my fingers in to hit my many Illustrator hotkeys.)

arvinsim 5y ago

There is a difference from audiophiles. Unlike audio, people can objectively see and feel the difference when you use different keycaps, switches, etc.

alecbz 5y ago
Huh? You can also notice objective differences in audio. Whether those differences are good or not is subjective, but that applies to both keyboards and audio.
bobkazamakis 5y ago
ah yes, famously audio cannot be measured and does not have any quantitative properties.

asiachick 5y ago

I see it more as similar to the hotrod/car enthusiast scene. A certain crowd loves to spend time customizing their cars. Mechanical keyboards seem similar to me. It's just a fun activity. A friend of mine got into it, designing custom PCBs, designing layered laser cut acrylic or 3d printed cases. They've made 5-6 keyboards. Some small, some split, some angular, the latest one is curved. They sent me one of their designs and it was fun to build one, though expensive. Total cost with all tools etc for me at least was ~$700. But hey, I'm an overpaid engineer and I a the keyboard 8-12hrs a day. I've been using it since I built it (18 months or so)

alecbz 5y ago

I used to use mechanicals with fancy layouts, but ended up getting annoyed having to switch between the fancy layout and QWERTY when working from my laptop. I was then just using QWERTY mechanicals for a while, until at one point I realized I actually was typing faster on my Mac's keyboard. So I got an external magic keyboard, and I've been pretty happy with that. I think maybe eventually I'd like to try a low-profile mechanical keyboard, but in general I think I don't see the appeal of regular "high travel" mechanical keyboards. They can feel "fun" but make me type slower.

munificent 5y ago

There's a component of human psychology where it just feels good to optimize a thing. It seems to be particularly prevalent in men, especially those of the technical persuasion. The funny thing about it is that it feels good to optimize a thing regardless of how important that things actual performance is. So you see all kinds of hobbies where people spend inordinate effort eking maximum performance out of shit that just doesn't matter: * Audiophiles, as you note * CPU overclocking * Punkin chunkin * Hypermiling * Tether cars (These hobbies always have names. I think it distinguishes the pursuit of optimization for its own sake from simply trying to improve a thing for functional reasons.) The point isn't the performance, it's just the enjoyment of making a number go up. In many ways, the less useful the number is, the more enjoyable it is top optimize. Because when the performance doesn't actually matter, it means the stakes are lower, failure isn't harmful, and it feels more like play and less like work. It's easy to criticize people for putting huge effort into improving things where the benefit is not at all commensurate with the effort. But the thing to realize is that the optimization isn't the justification for the effort. It's the joy of doing it in the first place.

president 5y ago
Optimizing things makes people feel good because we enjoy progress as it gives us a sense of productivity and accomplishment.
akaij 5y ago
> * Audiophiles, as you note I am not an audiophile, but I hear some variation of this mostly from people who have never listened to exceptional masters using really good audio equipment. Sure, the cost/performance ratio is usually prohibitive, but once you have that experience, I don't know how it can be objectively called "shit that just doesn't matter". There is also using the aforementioned setup when high. For people who like doing it, the difference is even more obvious, and the ratio starts looking reasonable.
- munificent 5y ago
  Audio is tricky because, yes, there is a part of the quality curve where better gear and setup really does matter. But there is a large segment of the curve beyond that where it's like... homeopathic electronics. A $50,000 HDMI cable is not going to improve your listening experience. I think of "audiophile" as encompassing a little more of the latter than the former, but yes the term is ambiguous.

Melatonic 5y ago

Theres a huge upgrade in my opinion just going to a basic mechanical - but of course very rapidly diminishing returns after that. Wait a bit and look around and you can get something pretty decent for less than 50$

dyingkneepad 5y ago

To me, going from membrane to mechanical was not a huge change, especially since in the end I don't really like MX Browns that much. Also because I figured I really like low profile keys. The huge game changer from me was to use a split keyboard with layers and macros (and switches better than mx browns). The split by itself makes you 1000% more comfortable, and the layers and macros help even more. You should try :)

starwind 5y ago

yeah my mechanical keyboard doesn't improve my performance at all. But I think it feels better to type on and I like the clicky sound. If you use something all day might-as-well enjoy that thing

at-fates-hands 5y ago

>> It would be like classical guitarists arguing over which brand of footstool improves performance the most. Reminds of when I worked in a bike shop and I was a mountain biking. Mostly single track and some DH. I never understood the roadies who were constantly in search of taking grams, GRAMS off of their bikes. I remember two guys talking about pedals and they were literally talking about how much better their bikes were weighing 5 grams less than they do now. As a mountain biker, I'd have 5 grams of mud on my shoes inside of 10 mins on the trail so I never understood the obsession with weight with roadies.

ok123456 5y ago

It's a slight premium for a low-end mechanical keyboard, about $40, that won't wear out nearly as fast as a rubber dome keyboard. The cheap keyboards that you get with a new computer are usually very low quality and not really intended for hours of daily use every day. Just get a quiet switch that won't annoy everyone around you if you're in an office environment.

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RedBeetDeadpool 5y ago

I would say its more akin to sneakerheads. 1. Its about the interface between your feet/hands and travelling across their respective landscapes. 2. Different shoes/keyboards lets to travel with differing levels of comfort. Sure you dont need a pair of nikes to run, and you don't necessarily need a separate pair of shoes for the winter, or for that matter roller-shoes, but they certainly make travelling across the landscape significantly more comfortable (or just different) for various uses. More than just that, people who love to buy shoes love to buy shoes of varying types even if they don't necessarily need it. Keep in mind, programmers are only one class of people who travel across the digital landscape.

agumonkey 5y ago

Everything is important but weighed properly. A good keyboard adds pleasure and avoids fatigue to editing. But most of the time the real value is in prior thinking and planning (to minimize editing to an extent)

dayvid 5y ago

I had a few months when I went down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole, constantly trying different switches and keyboards out. Honestly, my favorite mechanical keyboard was something I bought on Amazon for $40. I can understand if you want to customize your aesthetic, but I don't really are about that. It's the same with audio. I dabbled in hi-fi headphones and amplifiers, but it's so damn inconvenient and you wind up hyper-specializing into a non-portable setup. You're better off getting the versatile setup that's 80-90% there and costs less than half the premium cost.

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