21 ms·

.Net Developer Shortage

87 points by lapost1979 15y ago

nestlequ1k 15y ago
This will be an interesting one to watch. I know a ton of great .NET developers who have bailed on the platform and switched to open source. This is anecdotal for sure, but if this is a huge trend then you're left with a bunch of companies with huge investments in a platform, and an ever decreasing number of developers who can actually code effectively for it. The salariesrates should go up, but these typical corporate .NET clients are cheap motherfuckers. I'd predict a resurgence of offshore consulting to meet demand. However it does seem like devs for every technology are in high demand and low supply. It could just be as simple as that.
- daeken 15y ago
  I'm a .NET fanboy, but the likelihood of me ever working for a .NET shop is next to nil. The work is just not interesting. Sure, if I just wanted to collect a (almost decent) paycheck, I'd do it, but given that there are a dozen other niches I can work in, I'll pick any of them over the .NET world. The only way I'd be converted is a massive paycheck and at least some interesting problems, but neither of those seem to exist in the .NET world, by and large.
  - icey 15y ago
    I'm on the other side of the fence: At my last place we actually had some moderately interesting problems to solve, but had a hard time hiring because the vast majority of the applicant pool couldn't do anything that they couldn't look up on Google or StackOverflow. Even with a moderately easy tech-screening process we could only realistically do second interviews with around 1.5% of the applicants we got. For as good as .net is, I think it's doomed to be relegated to accounting apps for the foreseeable future.
  - misterbwong 15y ago
    Add me to the chorus of .NET devs saying that many of the .NET jobs out there just aren't interesting. I'm lucky enough to work for one of the few .NET shops where I'm not just stuck pumping out commodity CRUD apps but the market looks pretty bleak.
  - untog 15y ago
    Amen. I got lucky- I'm a .NET developer now working for a small startup in NYC, but spent a long time in .NET shop hell. That said, we're starting to look for another developer, and it's a nightmare. So many resumes of people that (without wanting to sound rude) belong in a .NET shop- I interviewed one guy that didn't even know SQL, because all he'd ever done was use prebuild factory methods for database access. He had a Masters.
    - T-hawk 15y ago
      untog, if you see this, could you drop me a line? Email should be in profile. I'm a .NET developer in NYC and may be looking to make a move. And I know SQL :)
- TallTalesOrTrue 15y ago
  I doubt that is the case. With employment at record highs and good jobs not available I don't think people would rather sit idle than take up a job in .Net. The article can also be rephrased as "Demand for .Net developers surges." Of course it won't be as newsworthy then :)
  - nestlequ1k 15y ago
    Sure, there's always going to be a mountain of job applicants for each position, it doesn't mean they can do the job. Finding qualified .NET developers is the real challenge, someone who can architect and build a functional system. These are the very type of people who are bailing on the platform.
- okaramian 15y ago
  The 2 .NET shops I was in had a pretty bad way of commoditizing the developers working there (and thus started believing offshoring was the way in this, the year of our lord, 2011). This also led to them working in bringing the code to the lowest common denominator level and was a frustrating nightmare. I was a lone wolf and when I mentioned that I had implemented a couple systems using MVC and jQuery on the front end it blew some of the developer's minds. It's a shame because the framework is capable of a lot, it's just the enterprise shops are terrible of taking advantage of it. Needless to say, I'm not a .NET developer anymore.
  - rodh257 15y ago
    out of interest, what language/framework are you working with now?
    - okaramian 15y ago
      I switched to doing a lot of Flex/Flash/Actionscript and JavaScript related work. I was basically working along the entire stack when I was doing .NET work.
patio11 15y ago
This article is a fairly valueless press release for Dice, but be that as it may: there are no shortages for developers, there are only shortages for developers at the wages employers are willing to pay.
- mey 15y ago
  In addition to being unable to pay what the market demands, companies (from my anecdotal perspective) also don't have any desire to train new developers into positions.
  - thematt 15y ago
    It's not that they're unable to pay -- they choose not to. I see so many companies that want something for nothing. They want the automation and savings from the systems that developers are building, they're just not willing to pay for it. But then ask them if they'd rather go back to the manual business process they were doing before (that doesn't require paying developer salaries) and they look at you like you're crazy.
- euroclydon 15y ago
  Part of the problem, for these .NET and Java jobs, is the job itself, not necessarily the pay. I get a half dozen calls per week for crappy internal .NET SharePointy positions at near the same salary I'm making. I wouldn't want to do those jobs for 150% of the salary. Folks that like to program, usually don't like to write back office apps.
  - ghurlman 15y ago
    That's part of the problem... a good chunk of the .Net shortage is a SharePoint developer shortage... real, actual developers, not draggy-droppy ones. Developers with a good head on their shoulders can get 6 figures easy doing SharePoint... but who in God's name would want to?
    - mgutz 15y ago
quanticle 15y ago
Dice believes that developers are worrying that if they specialize in .NET development, they won’t be able to branch out to other platforms. That's a valid concern, in my opinion. I don't know why, but even talented Microsoft developers I've spoken to have been woefully unaware of developments outside of the .Net/ASP sphere. It's almost as if innovations don't exist until they've been incorporated into the CLR. I've seen similar attitudes in Java developers, but it appears to be far worse in the .Net community. That was, in fact, one of the reasons I chose to keep practicing other programming languages while I was employed by a .Net shop. I didn't want to end up "stuck" knowing only .Net like so many of my co-workers.
- acabal 15y ago
  I worked in .Net shops for a few years, back in the days before .Net MVC. Part of the reason people ended up (and maybe still end up) stuck in .Net might be because back then, as soon as you tried stepping outside of the .Net webforms box (i.e. tried to do anything remotely interesting) things because exponentially complex. Keeping all of the .Net classes and foibles in my brain during my day job was enough for me not to want to learn the intricacies of a different system in my off time. That was years ago though... and since then I've happily moved on to being self-employed and using OSS.
  - marshray 15y ago
    Yeah Microsoft tends to deprecate and replace frameworks every few years. Usually it's an improvement, but they really keep you on an API treadmill. Eventually I got tired of it and went back to primarily Win32 development for customer-installed apps and Linux for everything else. I feel like I can focus on quality rather than quantity much better now.
- pbz 15y ago
  In my experience, looking at it from the other side is even worse. In fact, it's so bad that as soon as they hear Microsoft their brain shuts down. They get this emotional reaction that makes any rational discussion difficult if not impossible.
BadassFractal 15y ago
You what there's a shortage of? Proper remuneration for that kind of experience requirements.
rmc 15y ago
21% were looking for .NET developers with 8-10 years experience. Wikipedia tells me that .NET 1.0 was released in February 2002, 8.5 years ago. Good to see recruitment companies and HR depts have such realistic requirements. (Still, at least they aren't asking for anyone with 10+ years experience)
- ghurlman 15y ago
  That's 9.5 years, 10 if you were working with the beta stuff, but yeah... I've seen recruiters wanting 10+ years for 5 years now at least.
- VladRussian 15y ago
  at least in the case of MS technologies, the developers were exposed to the most of the components (or their previous incarnations) of the platform well before official .NET packaging. I'm still wondering what good candidates were placed into one position i came across in 2005 that had 10-12 years of J2EE experience requirement. Somehow i was scared to apply to such a place - as i only worked with Java since 97 and with J2EE since 99 :)
- dsolomon 15y ago
  5 years experience with SQL Server 2008 http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&dockey=xml/1/f/1f41f0c6321a299ae013cefef6b25b7b@endecaindex&source=19&FREE_TEXT=5+years+sql+2008&rating=99 http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&#3...
  - pagekalisedown 15y ago
    They probably have an h1b lined up and don't want locals to interfere with that person's labor certification.
- jmatt 15y ago
  I started coding .NET around 1.0. Completely anecdotal but out of the dozen+ people I knew that dove in at the time - zero are still actively involved in .NET. I rarely take a .NET contract. But what I can say is 1) They always pay my highest rates. 2) Generally it's a bad / scary experience in comparison to python or Clojure (where I do the majority of my work and contracting).
dsolomon 15y ago
Citing Dice as a source gets about as much credibility as using a ouiji board.
- john_horton 15y ago
  Out of curiosity, why? Wouldn't they have pretty good proxy data on the demand for different skills?
  - dsolomon 15y ago
    Unfortunately it's an HR system, managed by HR, for HR. If the marketplace really wants to know what is in demand, contact the people actually doing the work.
vparikh 15y ago
I know I'll get down voted for saying this but I just have to do it - could it be that developers no longer want to work for boring corporate assembly-line level "lets make yet another database front-end for yet another inventory management system"? Could it be that people who like to code actually care about the code and tools that they are using? Could it be that developers are seeing the writing on the wall about Microsoft and are leaving in droves?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- Delmania 15y ago
  What writing on the wall is this? The demise of Microsoft? That's a narrative being pushed by the tech reporting industry. Also, I assume you've never used and of the developments tools or languages created by the company. Both Visual Studio and C# are very well done, and other tools like F# and the ASP.NET MVC are getting similiar treatment. The problem has little to do with either Microsoft or the .NET development ecosystem, it has more to do with the nature of corporations and startups.
- jinushaun 15y ago
  I work for a .NET based startup doing fun and interesting things, so I know that C# and .NET can actually be fun to code in. However, most, if not all, of the .NET job listings I see on Twitter are boring soul-killing enterprise jobs. Or worse, Sharepoint! Fortunately, there seems to be a renaissance going on at MS. They realise they no one likes working with their shit tools. Sure MS technology may "run the world", but all the cool/fun stuff is being done in the OSS stack. When was the last time you heard of a hot startup using .NET? MS wants in on the party and a lot of their new stuff has a deliberate non-enterprise angle with a focus on developer enjoyment.
  - jackfoxy 15y ago
    >When was the last time you heard of a hot startup using .NET? Does Stack Exchange qualify?
jackfoxy 15y ago
I run a .NET shop where we do pretty interesting stuff, and it is sooo hard to recruit decent .NET developers. The first step of my recruiting process is a simple, but moderately challenging algorithm in C# to complete at the candidate's leisure and send to me. 80% - 85% don't come close to getting it right even though acceptance criteria are part of the very simple instructions.
- haasted 15y ago
  Can you reveal the algorithm you are asking them to implement? Your anecdote is interesting in the context of the recent stories about a lot of programmers not being able to solve the fizz-buzz problem.
  - DrJokepu 15y ago
    I'm not the parent but we're in very similar position (finding it very difficult to find decent .NET developers, candidates can't answer even the most basic algorithmic questions), so I'll answer your question for you. I typically ask candidates to implement a function that calculates the nth element of the Fibonacci sequence, write a program that prints the values in a binary tree in ascending order and finally to implement an algorithm that finds the value of the element in the middle of a linked list. These are just "introductory" questions, but very very few candidates make past this stage so I very rarely get to ask serious / deep programming questions to candidates. And believe me, I'm very forgiving on interviews and try to take into consideration that the candidate is probably very nervous, especially when they are fresh off the school, but what can I do with a candidate who can't figure out how to get the number of elements in a bloody linked list, even after carefully explaining how a linked list works? Or the ones who get the idea that they should be counting all elements but have no idea how? How could I discuss the finer details of type covariance or ask them how they would go on about implementing a face detection algorithm if they can't even come up with the naive solution to the Fibonacci "problem"?
    - StrawberryFrog 15y ago
      > implement an algorithm that finds the value of the element in the middle of a linked list I'm struggling to think of the last time I had to use a linked list for anything. I'd be tempted to give the troll answer: put the elements into a List<T> already, divide list.Count by 2.... Sure if it's doubly linked then you can walk it from both ends and meet in the middle, then think about how to handle the case where there are an even number of elements, but do you really want a serious answer about linked lists in .Net?
wavephorm 15y ago
In other news, there is an excess of agencies who aren't offering real jobs, but are just collecting resumes to hand off to clients without even reviewing.
matrix 15y ago
It's unfortunate that all non-software industry companies are getting tarred with the ".NET Shop" brush, because much depends on the company culture and who is running the development group. I've worked in some great gigs (and one or two awful ones) in settings you might not expect to be interesting and fun. I'm hiring at the moment, and it's definitely in the "great gigs" category. Bonus, as part of this gig I occasionally get paid to ski and climb. Not that this has helped me find good candidates yet.
mgkimsal 15y ago
Perhaps off topic a bit, but here's a recent run in with a .net shop. I was brought in to work on a project. They'd installed a PHP-on-Windows setup for me because I was introduced as a "PHP guy" (which I mostly am, but I do other stuff as well). I indicated I could do the project in ASP.Net, but it would take me a bit longer because it's not my main platform. No... they needed it done ASAP, and were prepared to be a mixed shop. They were already running another PHP app on Windows already, so this was a natural progression. They were already having trouble finding .net people in the area - freelance or otherwise, so it seemed a concession they were willing to make. Find available talent, get job done faster, move on. Project was done in July and August, then went up the approval chain. I was expecting to come back at end of Sept with a list of changes to make. "Well.. our developer ported it to .net because that's what he's more comfortable maintaining." So... rather than spending some time getting comfortable with PHP, they spent time reworking something in to ASP.Net, negating my work, and meaning there was a couple of weeks of other internal .net work not getting done either. What does this have to do with .net developer shortage? Maybe nothing, or maybe those companies could be more productive by having staff that could work with mixed tech stacks more effectively. I'm stereotyping a bit - we've all met developer X who only knew one technology, and every problem had to fit within that one tech worldview. I've found it with zealots of all stripes, but perhaps it hurts a bit more at the enterprise level?
rodh257 15y ago
A lot of talk here about the types of businesses that normally do .NET work and how they aren't very good to work for, so I figure here's a good place to ask for some advice. I've been working full time as a .NET dev and doing my degree part time for the last 5 years, graduating next month hopefully around the top of my class. I enjoy .NET, particularly ASP.NET MVC, and my current job has let me have full control over the development workflow, I use TDD,Git,MVC,Jquery etc. Looking at what I should do next if I was to change jobs it kind of feels like russian roulette trying to find a company here in Brisbane, Australia that hires good devs to do interesting .NET (or any development work) while paying well and without being a sweat shop. My question is, where should I branch to if not in .NET? Java seems like the other big area around here but its all enterprise stuff as well. I've done some mobile development in my own time, got a couple of apps on the iOS app store and some Android on the way. One of which uses a NodeJS/MongoDB back end, but I'm not sure there's that many jobs around here for that (iOS/Android development may be a good option, though I do like web dev). I'll be looking to relocate in a few years, but for now, does anyone have any suggestions for what framework/language I should learn next? To all the people here who said they moved away from .NET due to the kinds of employers and fellow developers that use it, where did you move into and how did that work out for you?
- dekz 15y ago
  If you're looking for particular non-mainstream framework/langues jobs in Brisbane (Node.js being one of them) you should hang around in the Meetups (MeetupJS). Good place to get noticed and job offers.
  - rodh257 15y ago
    Thanks Dekz, I've attended a few different meetups in the past (including JS) but haven't had time this year due to a heavy uni workload, will definitely be heading to the various ones around the place. Unfortunately the .NET one (QMSDNUG) is more geared to hearing about new Microsoft products than improving programming skills, but I'll definitely be getting stuck into some meetups around the place.

87 points by lapost1979 15y ago

This will be an interesting one to watch. I know a ton of great .NET developers who have bailed on the platform and switched to open source. This is anecdotal for sure, but if this is a huge trend then you're left with a bunch of companies with huge investments in a platform, and an ever decreasing number of developers who can actually code effectively for it. The salariesrates should go up, but these typical corporate .NET clients are cheap motherfuckers. I'd predict a resurgence of offshore consulting to meet demand. However it does seem like devs for every technology are in high demand and low supply. It could just be as simple as that.

daeken 15y ago
I'm a .NET fanboy, but the likelihood of me ever working for a .NET shop is next to nil. The work is just not interesting. Sure, if I just wanted to collect a (almost decent) paycheck, I'd do it, but given that there are a dozen other niches I can work in, I'll pick any of them over the .NET world. The only way I'd be converted is a massive paycheck and at least some interesting problems, but neither of those seem to exist in the .NET world, by and large.
- icey 15y ago
  I'm on the other side of the fence: At my last place we actually had some moderately interesting problems to solve, but had a hard time hiring because the vast majority of the applicant pool couldn't do anything that they couldn't look up on Google or StackOverflow. Even with a moderately easy tech-screening process we could only realistically do second interviews with around 1.5% of the applicants we got. For as good as .net is, I think it's doomed to be relegated to accounting apps for the foreseeable future.
- misterbwong 15y ago
  Add me to the chorus of .NET devs saying that many of the .NET jobs out there just aren't interesting. I'm lucky enough to work for one of the few .NET shops where I'm not just stuck pumping out commodity CRUD apps but the market looks pretty bleak.
- untog 15y ago
  Amen. I got lucky- I'm a .NET developer now working for a small startup in NYC, but spent a long time in .NET shop hell. That said, we're starting to look for another developer, and it's a nightmare. So many resumes of people that (without wanting to sound rude) belong in a .NET shop- I interviewed one guy that didn't even know SQL, because all he'd ever done was use prebuild factory methods for database access. He had a Masters.
  - T-hawk 15y ago
    untog, if you see this, could you drop me a line? Email should be in profile. I'm a .NET developer in NYC and may be looking to make a move. And I know SQL :)
TallTalesOrTrue 15y ago
I doubt that is the case. With employment at record highs and good jobs not available I don't think people would rather sit idle than take up a job in .Net. The article can also be rephrased as "Demand for .Net developers surges." Of course it won't be as newsworthy then :)
- nestlequ1k 15y ago
  Sure, there's always going to be a mountain of job applicants for each position, it doesn't mean they can do the job. Finding qualified .NET developers is the real challenge, someone who can architect and build a functional system. These are the very type of people who are bailing on the platform.
okaramian 15y ago
The 2 .NET shops I was in had a pretty bad way of commoditizing the developers working there (and thus started believing offshoring was the way in this, the year of our lord, 2011). This also led to them working in bringing the code to the lowest common denominator level and was a frustrating nightmare. I was a lone wolf and when I mentioned that I had implemented a couple systems using MVC and jQuery on the front end it blew some of the developer's minds. It's a shame because the framework is capable of a lot, it's just the enterprise shops are terrible of taking advantage of it. Needless to say, I'm not a .NET developer anymore.
- rodh257 15y ago
  out of interest, what language/framework are you working with now?
  - okaramian 15y ago
    I switched to doing a lot of Flex/Flash/Actionscript and JavaScript related work. I was basically working along the entire stack when I was doing .NET work.

patio11 15y ago

This article is a fairly valueless press release for Dice, but be that as it may: there are no shortages for developers, there are only shortages for developers at the wages employers are willing to pay.

mey 15y ago
In addition to being unable to pay what the market demands, companies (from my anecdotal perspective) also don't have any desire to train new developers into positions.
- thematt 15y ago
  It's not that they're unable to pay -- they choose not to. I see so many companies that want something for nothing. They want the automation and savings from the systems that developers are building, they're just not willing to pay for it. But then ask them if they'd rather go back to the manual business process they were doing before (that doesn't require paying developer salaries) and they look at you like you're crazy.
euroclydon 15y ago
Part of the problem, for these .NET and Java jobs, is the job itself, not necessarily the pay. I get a half dozen calls per week for crappy internal .NET SharePointy positions at near the same salary I'm making. I wouldn't want to do those jobs for 150% of the salary. Folks that like to program, usually don't like to write back office apps.
- ghurlman 15y ago
  That's part of the problem... a good chunk of the .Net shortage is a SharePoint developer shortage... real, actual developers, not draggy-droppy ones. Developers with a good head on their shoulders can get 6 figures easy doing SharePoint... but who in God's name would want to?
  - mgutz 15y ago

quanticle 15y ago

Dice believes that developers are worrying that if they specialize in .NET development, they won’t be able to branch out to other platforms. That's a valid concern, in my opinion. I don't know why, but even talented Microsoft developers I've spoken to have been woefully unaware of developments outside of the .Net/ASP sphere. It's almost as if innovations don't exist until they've been incorporated into the CLR. I've seen similar attitudes in Java developers, but it appears to be far worse in the .Net community. That was, in fact, one of the reasons I chose to keep practicing other programming languages while I was employed by a .Net shop. I didn't want to end up "stuck" knowing only .Net like so many of my co-workers.

acabal 15y ago
I worked in .Net shops for a few years, back in the days before .Net MVC. Part of the reason people ended up (and maybe still end up) stuck in .Net might be because back then, as soon as you tried stepping outside of the .Net webforms box (i.e. tried to do anything remotely interesting) things because exponentially complex. Keeping all of the .Net classes and foibles in my brain during my day job was enough for me not to want to learn the intricacies of a different system in my off time. That was years ago though... and since then I've happily moved on to being self-employed and using OSS.
- marshray 15y ago
  Yeah Microsoft tends to deprecate and replace frameworks every few years. Usually it's an improvement, but they really keep you on an API treadmill. Eventually I got tired of it and went back to primarily Win32 development for customer-installed apps and Linux for everything else. I feel like I can focus on quality rather than quantity much better now.
pbz 15y ago
In my experience, looking at it from the other side is even worse. In fact, it's so bad that as soon as they hear Microsoft their brain shuts down. They get this emotional reaction that makes any rational discussion difficult if not impossible.

BadassFractal 15y ago

You what there's a shortage of? Proper remuneration for that kind of experience requirements.

rmc 15y ago

21% were looking for .NET developers with 8-10 years experience. Wikipedia tells me that .NET 1.0 was released in February 2002, 8.5 years ago. Good to see recruitment companies and HR depts have such realistic requirements. (Still, at least they aren't asking for anyone with 10+ years experience)

ghurlman 15y ago
That's 9.5 years, 10 if you were working with the beta stuff, but yeah... I've seen recruiters wanting 10+ years for 5 years now at least.
VladRussian 15y ago
at least in the case of MS technologies, the developers were exposed to the most of the components (or their previous incarnations) of the platform well before official .NET packaging. I'm still wondering what good candidates were placed into one position i came across in 2005 that had 10-12 years of J2EE experience requirement. Somehow i was scared to apply to such a place - as i only worked with Java since 97 and with J2EE since 99 :)
dsolomon 15y ago
5 years experience with SQL Server 2008 http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&dockey=xml/1/f/1f41f0c6321a299ae013cefef6b25b7b@endecaindex&source=19&FREE_TEXT=5+years+sql+2008&rating=99 http://seeker.dice.com/jobsearch/servlet/JobSearch?op=302&#3...
- pagekalisedown 15y ago
  They probably have an h1b lined up and don't want locals to interfere with that person's labor certification.
jmatt 15y ago
I started coding .NET around 1.0. Completely anecdotal but out of the dozen+ people I knew that dove in at the time - zero are still actively involved in .NET. I rarely take a .NET contract. But what I can say is 1) They always pay my highest rates. 2) Generally it's a bad / scary experience in comparison to python or Clojure (where I do the majority of my work and contracting).

dsolomon 15y ago

Citing Dice as a source gets about as much credibility as using a ouiji board.

john_horton 15y ago
Out of curiosity, why? Wouldn't they have pretty good proxy data on the demand for different skills?
- dsolomon 15y ago
  Unfortunately it's an HR system, managed by HR, for HR. If the marketplace really wants to know what is in demand, contact the people actually doing the work.

vparikh 15y ago

I know I'll get down voted for saying this but I just have to do it - could it be that developers no longer want to work for boring corporate assembly-line level "lets make yet another database front-end for yet another inventory management system"? Could it be that people who like to code actually care about the code and tools that they are using? Could it be that developers are seeing the writing on the wall about Microsoft and are leaving in droves?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
Delmania 15y ago
What writing on the wall is this? The demise of Microsoft? That's a narrative being pushed by the tech reporting industry. Also, I assume you've never used and of the developments tools or languages created by the company. Both Visual Studio and C# are very well done, and other tools like F# and the ASP.NET MVC are getting similiar treatment. The problem has little to do with either Microsoft or the .NET development ecosystem, it has more to do with the nature of corporations and startups.
jinushaun 15y ago
I work for a .NET based startup doing fun and interesting things, so I know that C# and .NET can actually be fun to code in. However, most, if not all, of the .NET job listings I see on Twitter are boring soul-killing enterprise jobs. Or worse, Sharepoint! Fortunately, there seems to be a renaissance going on at MS. They realise they no one likes working with their shit tools. Sure MS technology may "run the world", but all the cool/fun stuff is being done in the OSS stack. When was the last time you heard of a hot startup using .NET? MS wants in on the party and a lot of their new stuff has a deliberate non-enterprise angle with a focus on developer enjoyment.
- jackfoxy 15y ago
  >When was the last time you heard of a hot startup using .NET? Does Stack Exchange qualify?

jackfoxy 15y ago

I run a .NET shop where we do pretty interesting stuff, and it is sooo hard to recruit decent .NET developers. The first step of my recruiting process is a simple, but moderately challenging algorithm in C# to complete at the candidate's leisure and send to me. 80% - 85% don't come close to getting it right even though acceptance criteria are part of the very simple instructions.

haasted 15y ago
Can you reveal the algorithm you are asking them to implement? Your anecdote is interesting in the context of the recent stories about a lot of programmers not being able to solve the fizz-buzz problem.
- DrJokepu 15y ago
  I'm not the parent but we're in very similar position (finding it very difficult to find decent .NET developers, candidates can't answer even the most basic algorithmic questions), so I'll answer your question for you. I typically ask candidates to implement a function that calculates the nth element of the Fibonacci sequence, write a program that prints the values in a binary tree in ascending order and finally to implement an algorithm that finds the value of the element in the middle of a linked list. These are just "introductory" questions, but very very few candidates make past this stage so I very rarely get to ask serious / deep programming questions to candidates. And believe me, I'm very forgiving on interviews and try to take into consideration that the candidate is probably very nervous, especially when they are fresh off the school, but what can I do with a candidate who can't figure out how to get the number of elements in a bloody linked list, even after carefully explaining how a linked list works? Or the ones who get the idea that they should be counting all elements but have no idea how? How could I discuss the finer details of type covariance or ask them how they would go on about implementing a face detection algorithm if they can't even come up with the naive solution to the Fibonacci "problem"?
  - StrawberryFrog 15y ago
    > implement an algorithm that finds the value of the element in the middle of a linked list I'm struggling to think of the last time I had to use a linked list for anything. I'd be tempted to give the troll answer: put the elements into a List<T> already, divide list.Count by 2.... Sure if it's doubly linked then you can walk it from both ends and meet in the middle, then think about how to handle the case where there are an even number of elements, but do you really want a serious answer about linked lists in .Net?

wavephorm 15y ago

In other news, there is an excess of agencies who aren't offering real jobs, but are just collecting resumes to hand off to clients without even reviewing.

matrix 15y ago

It's unfortunate that all non-software industry companies are getting tarred with the ".NET Shop" brush, because much depends on the company culture and who is running the development group. I've worked in some great gigs (and one or two awful ones) in settings you might not expect to be interesting and fun. I'm hiring at the moment, and it's definitely in the "great gigs" category. Bonus, as part of this gig I occasionally get paid to ski and climb. Not that this has helped me find good candidates yet.

mgkimsal 15y ago

Perhaps off topic a bit, but here's a recent run in with a .net shop. I was brought in to work on a project. They'd installed a PHP-on-Windows setup for me because I was introduced as a "PHP guy" (which I mostly am, but I do other stuff as well). I indicated I could do the project in ASP.Net, but it would take me a bit longer because it's not my main platform. No... they needed it done ASAP, and were prepared to be a mixed shop. They were already running another PHP app on Windows already, so this was a natural progression. They were already having trouble finding .net people in the area - freelance or otherwise, so it seemed a concession they were willing to make. Find available talent, get job done faster, move on. Project was done in July and August, then went up the approval chain. I was expecting to come back at end of Sept with a list of changes to make. "Well.. our developer ported it to .net because that's what he's more comfortable maintaining." So... rather than spending some time getting comfortable with PHP, they spent time reworking something in to ASP.Net, negating my work, and meaning there was a couple of weeks of other internal .net work not getting done either. What does this have to do with .net developer shortage? Maybe nothing, or maybe those companies could be more productive by having staff that could work with mixed tech stacks more effectively. I'm stereotyping a bit - we've all met developer X who only knew one technology, and every problem had to fit within that one tech worldview. I've found it with zealots of all stripes, but perhaps it hurts a bit more at the enterprise level?

rodh257 15y ago

A lot of talk here about the types of businesses that normally do .NET work and how they aren't very good to work for, so I figure here's a good place to ask for some advice. I've been working full time as a .NET dev and doing my degree part time for the last 5 years, graduating next month hopefully around the top of my class. I enjoy .NET, particularly ASP.NET MVC, and my current job has let me have full control over the development workflow, I use TDD,Git,MVC,Jquery etc. Looking at what I should do next if I was to change jobs it kind of feels like russian roulette trying to find a company here in Brisbane, Australia that hires good devs to do interesting .NET (or any development work) while paying well and without being a sweat shop. My question is, where should I branch to if not in .NET? Java seems like the other big area around here but its all enterprise stuff as well. I've done some mobile development in my own time, got a couple of apps on the iOS app store and some Android on the way. One of which uses a NodeJS/MongoDB back end, but I'm not sure there's that many jobs around here for that (iOS/Android development may be a good option, though I do like web dev). I'll be looking to relocate in a few years, but for now, does anyone have any suggestions for what framework/language I should learn next? To all the people here who said they moved away from .NET due to the kinds of employers and fellow developers that use it, where did you move into and how did that work out for you?

dekz 15y ago
If you're looking for particular non-mainstream framework/langues jobs in Brisbane (Node.js being one of them) you should hang around in the Meetups (MeetupJS). Good place to get noticed and job offers.
- rodh257 15y ago
  Thanks Dekz, I've attended a few different meetups in the past (including JS) but haven't had time this year due to a heavy uni workload, will definitely be heading to the various ones around the place. Unfortunately the .NET one (QMSDNUG) is more geared to hearing about new Microsoft products than improving programming skills, but I'll definitely be getting stuck into some meetups around the place.