15 ms·

Entitlement issues (2009)

85 points by tta 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cybaz 5y ago
Sometimes I wonder, if I knew that the series would not be finished would I have started it, and would reading something else have been a better use of my time. I usually come to the conclusion that despite GRRM's world being incomplete, it's still far better than most of the work in the fantasy genre.
jrimbault 5y ago
title: Entitlement issues... [2009]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sdoering 5y ago
> I am behind on work because American Airlines doesn't have proper power points in International first class like, er, all the other airlines I've flown on in the last few years. > (They offered to sell me an adapter for $150 to plug in the battery-dead computer, and I probably should have said yes to keep working, but was so outraged, and had decided not to fly American in future, so it would never have been used again, and said no.) Regardless of the "real" point of the article I was totally irritated by that. How would any company rationalize behavior like this? Do "rich" people flying first class really normally just shell out $150 instead of deciding (like Gaiman did) to just not fly them again? Are $150 worth the lost business?
- barney54 5y ago
  Not anymore. I’ve flown business a few times in American and other airlines over the past 5 years and they all had good power ports.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dwighttk 5y ago
  Lots of people on expense accounts who don’t think about it maybe.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  We've all been pissed off by an airline and vowed not to fly with them again... Until we planned another trip and that airline was the cheapest and/or most convenient. Airlines know this. There isn't a huge choice for consumers.
  - nojonestownpls 5y ago
    The invisible hand of free market at work.
  - gruturo 5y ago
    Oh I don't know about that... I swore off Ryanair after one bad experience too many, around 2013, and have managed to avoid them ever since. I've intentionally bought more expensive tickets from Lufthansa and Swissair (iirc) where Ryanair would have been cheaper - and it was my own money, not business travel where I could claim the expense back. I don't see myself ever using them again - barring hypothetical scenarios where I desperately needed to go somewhere and they were only airline flying there. And they lost more than 1 person's business - I've gladly "upgraded" my travel companions on 3 occasions so far, paying either their full ticket or price difference, so we could fly together on anything-but-ryanair. I keep reading (possibly sensationalized) news pieces about their latest cost saving measures like banning employees from charging their phones at work, and my disgust reinforces my intention to never have anything to do with them.
    - ubermonkey 5y ago
      I have the sense that being a "captive" customer to a single carrier, or two carriers at most, is a predominately American problem. Here in Houston -- a huge city in the middle of the country -- it is far, far easier to fly United than any other carrier for any long-haul route. Southwest is an option for close US locations, and that's great, but United is what you're using to go to either coast. Sure, there ARE other airlines here. There are LOTS of them. But if you want to go to the UK on something other than United, you better be going to wherever that other carrier goes, because you won't have a lot of options. (EG, Singapore flies direct to Manchester, but that's it. Emirates flies to Dubai nonstop every day, but has no other legs in Houston.) In smaller places, the choices are often starker.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  I think it's quite common. Once saw a proeminent warning in a five star hotel that cautioned Wi-Fi is only free for the first month of your stay. So, if you're spending more than a month in that five star hotel, you'd better start paying for Wi-Fi as well.
- tpmx 5y ago
  Ah, that horrid EmPower 15V DC thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmPower_(aircraft_power_adapter)#Original_15-Volt_EmPower_Connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmPower_(aircraft_power_adapte...
- panzagl 5y ago
  American Airlines is not your bitch.
  - User23 5y ago
    It's true, there's nothing about laptop chargers in the American Airlines Contract of Carriage[1], so clearly he should see to his own entitlement issues for expecting that courtesy. [1] https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/conditions-of-carriage.jsp https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/conditions-...
imgabe 5y ago
I remember when this came out. I agree with the sentiment, but I think that as an audience you have every right to feel cheated that someone told you half a story and then never finished it. Sure, they didn't owe it to you, but it's still a shitty thing to do. Like if a friend offered to help you move and then never showed up. Hey, I'm not your bitch! They might say. No, but they said they'd do something and then they didn't do it, so from now on people are going to take that into consideration and rightly consider them a bullshitter who doesn't follow through. I've pretty much written off any hope of ever reading the rest of A Song of Ice and Fire and also The Kingkiller Chronicles (by a different, also wildly unreliable author, what is it with these guys). Yeah, they're not my bitch. They don't owe me anything, it just sucks that they turned out to be bullshitters.
- major505 5y ago
  Specially since the fact that George R. Martin can now enjoy his life, and not work is thanks to this same audience. Those who treat their audience like shit, is due to lost everything.
  - Veen 5y ago
    His readers (not audience) paid to buy the books he had written. They didn't pay him to write books in the future. I really don't understand this bizarre "fandom" idea that a writer owes his readers something beyond what they have paid for. It's a polite fiction that some writers unfortunately indulge, but the fact that you've paid a small amount of money to read a book doesn't impose any future obligation on its author. His publishers might have cause to be annoyed if they have a contract for more books, but the readers, however disappointed, don't have a moral right to dictate a writer's future labour. And that's what writing novels is—it's work for money, like programming or plumbing, not some mystical calling or vocation.
    - hoseja 5y ago
      They bought the books with the illusion they might someday read the ending. A lot of them wouldn't have bought the books if they knew there will never be a conclusion.
Octoth0rpe 5y ago
There's a review for Rothfuss's perpetually forthcoming Doors of Stone that makes the same point that is worth reading: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2105865794 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2105865794
- jackdh 5y ago
  It's quite funny that in the decade since his own comment on the page: > I'd love to see the five-star version of the book, because right now, the one I'm toiling away at is about a three an a half-in my opinion The rating have dropped so far it's almost at a 3.5 rating.
jstx1 5y ago
It's normal for people to have failings like procrastination, being unproductive and not being able to finish something they started. GRRM's failings just happen to be very public because of his earlier success. He's never finishing those books and I think that at this point many of the fans have moved on.
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  I never procrastin... I'll finish this comment later.
gorjusborg 5y ago
I really can't understand how someone can appreciate a writer's work so much that they hate them for not producing more. That's weird.
- mattmanser 5y ago
  Because it's frustrating to not get an ending, and that frustration can turn into nastier emotions.
- tehbeard 5y ago
  First, you're dealing with humans, rationality is a distant consideration in dealing with emotions. Second, There's an implicit promise that stories have a structure, and that structure includes an ending, where there's payoff and/or setting other things up for a longer story. That lack of ending leaves built up tension that, well, hasn't been relieved. With that tension, see my first point. Thirdly, I'd lay the vitriol that's brewed purely at the feet of David & Daniel for royally fucking up the TV show adaptation's final seasons. The catharsis of the "TV ending" could have given GRRM a good few more years to work on the book ending, as some would have put down the story with the end of the show, and others might have debated how the divergence between book/tv before would affect the book ending. Instead, we got a train wreck, and snapping back to the reality that GRRM is getting old, and the only "canon" ending currently is.... not that good. Edit: I'm not endorsing shitty behaviour from fans, I've seen it cause plenty of issues over the years, just trying to offer some perspective as to why.
  - panzagl 5y ago
    It also doesn't help that the last 2 books have not been good.
- gruturo 5y ago
  It is weird. But on the other hand he created a series, not isolated books, and the story is quite unfinished. I don't think anyone would be mad at him if he finished the series but then didn't produce anything else after that. The hatred is still excessive, but imagine watching the first 2 Lord of the Rings movies and then discovering the 3rd one won't ever come out (not a perfect fit, given that the books were all finished long ago, but...)
randomthought12 5y ago
At this point, I am not sure we will get the end of the story. I am almost glad that HBO killed my love for GoT. I totally understand that George R.R. Martin is not our bitch but when someone creates a book series that lots of people come to love, you feel cheated when you learn about all the side projects when the main project doesn't seem to evolve. Anyway, I read the 5 books, absolutely loved them. I think I'll just stop caring and try to remember these 5 amazing books as the end of the story.
- b112 5y ago
  Plot twist! GRR, fiscally empowered, has his entire body frozen upon death. Years later you learn, now as an old man, that he has been decanted, re-youthed (something you cannot afford), and is now almost done the next book. The entire series in fact! Yet now you are the one who is 73, he young, and you may not live to see his new novels! Fate. Always games by mistress Fate.
  - imgabe 5y ago
    It turns out that it was taking so long because he wanted to publish all the remaining books at the same time! Just as they're released, nuclear war breaks out. Miraculously, you survive! You find all the books in the ruins of a Barnes and Noble. As you sit down to finally read them, you break your glasses...
    - b112 5y ago
      "But there was time now!" Classic, hah.
matsemann 5y ago
Brandon Sanderson last week posted a video [0] where he said he would come clean. Spoiler: It was him having written 4 new books during lockdown in addition to those promised. The Kickstarter [1] for those books is now the biggest ever. He is a machine, also gets a lot of goodwill from the way he interact with fans. He's the one author where I read books before the series is finished, because I feel I can trust him. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a-k6eaT-jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a-k6eaT-jQ [1]: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dragonsteel/surprise-four-secret-novels-by-brandon-sanderson?ref=bva2b9 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dragonsteel/surprise-fo...
- OtomotO 5y ago
  Yup, he is a machine and I love some of his works, while others I find mediocre at best. It's the same as with all the other "machines" out there, really. Some very good books, many mediocre, some even outright bad. All my subjective taste of course. But you're right, one can trust him that he finishes and that has its merits too.
  - mabub24 5y ago
    I agree. The quality of his writing and output is generally on par with someone like Clive Cussler, or Joyce Carol Oates. The method is pretty simple: write a lot and see what sticks. Updike was probably the best writer in the modern era to have used that method. Sanderson generally has some interesting concepts but his characters are pretty simplistic, and he puts an extreme emphasis on "systematic worldbuilding," to the detriment of their plot. His style is really starting to show its limits in the Stormlight books, which are very long, which have some neat scenes, but which are also in incredible need of an editor.
- 999900000999 5y ago
  Thank you. If I have time I plan to read at least one of his books. I've been wasting alot of time on YouTube, and frankly here. Books remove that option, you need to focus on them
OtomotO 5y ago
Well, even if he never finishes, the red wedding still a better love story than twilight, I guess ;) As an absolute fan of ASoIaF, The Kingkiller Chronicles and The Gentleman Bastard I can say: I am waiting for Winds of Winter for over 10 years now... I would be full of joy if it really came out, but I also see that George doesn't owe me anything. I paid the existing books, knowing the series wasn't finished and still I ate right through them. It's a bit like with open source, really. Some people expect you to deliver again and again if they donate (!) to your work.
- foogazi 5y ago
  I felt so smart by starting GoT books when the TV series started in 2011 - Dance of Dragons came out and I thought I had enough material to hold me for the next 4-5 years
jl6 5y ago
The HBO show was amazing, for at least 4 seasons and maybe as many as 6 seasons. My working assumption is that the fan reaction to the HBO ending has sent GRRM back to the drawing board on many storylines and thus he will require more time to finish. He’s 73… fingers crossed.
dang 5y ago
Related: Entitlement issues (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8136670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8136670 - Aug 2014 (151 comments)
mtnygard 5y ago
Past purchases don't buy future books, true. George is a free human not a slave to our desire for _content_, also true. But I also understand fan frustration. When Gaiman wrote that, "A Game of Thrones" was already 15 years in the past. "A Dance With Dragons" had been promised for 2005-ish and was still 2 years in the future. Since "GRRM is not your bitch", George has published 10 books, of which one advanced the core story of ASoIaF. Meanwhile, on his not-a-blog, George's infrequent posts usual refer to how busy he is while simultaneously telling fans they just need to be patient. It's been 11 years since the last book in the main ASoIaF story line. _26 years_ after reading "A Game of Thrones" I'm not even mad. I've just given up. I'll just put this in the same category as Gordon R. Dickson's Dorsai saga or Coleridge's Kubla Khan: brilliant but never-to-be-finished.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  I mean - I guess it depends on how we define "bitch". I agree he's a free human who can make his own choices - but he made a few choices that I find distasteful - Primarily: He lies through his fucking teeth. I read the first three books of his series in middle school - I was 13 at the time. I VIVIDLY remember how he promised not only that book four was coming soon, but that the problem was that it was so much content his editor was making him break it into two books. Then five years passed. Not a peep. No updates, no content. He happily wrote a poem anthology and a quartet of short stories in between - but not a peep on where his two books of content were. Finally - as I entered college, he got around to publishing book four. And that was the last book I read from him. Not only was it not the quality of the first three, it left out literally half of the cast of characters. Now - he's doing it again with the end of the series: He's very gung-ho to get good publicity by talking shit about how he'll focus on the series, and how much content he has, and how these books are the shining rainbows of everything his fans want. Then he can't handle even small amounts of flak - like: You PROMISED this was coming, where is it? Basically - I think he's an utter bitch. Not because I think I can boss him around (I don't) but because he acts like a little bitch - he makes promises he knows he won't keep for the attention and fawning of his fans.
fergal_reid 5y ago
I don't agree with Gaiman here. His basic argument is that the contract is you paid $10 for each book you got, so the author doesn't owe you the next book. I disagree with this. First off, the fact that the fans are so upset is evidence that this wasn't _their_ understanding of the contract. The thing is, they didn't just spend $10. They spent time getting invested in the story. This emotional investment is left unfulfilled if they don't get the implicitly promised ending. Now, let's turn this around. Let's say fans do decide that their $10 strictly comes with no expectation of the next book coming. Well then many fans wouldn't have bought the first books until the whole series is finished. It would likely become uneconomical to write long fantasy series. Writers like Martin would suffer. It's easy for Martin or whoever to drop the ball on the implicit contract now, after becoming rich; but if this contract hadn't existed, authors like Martin would probably have desired to create it explicitly. If you believe that, then Gaiman's argument doesn't hold up. And so not finishing a promised series is taking from that trust commons. Of course, sometimes humans _can't_ finish something, and readers should accept that risk. The authors shouldn't be harassed. But wanting them to follow through is not the same as thinking "they're your bitch".
- ubermonkey 5y ago
  "Well then many fans wouldn't have bought the first books until the whole series is finished. It would likely become uneconomical to write long fantasy series. Writers like Martin would suffer." This is me. I don't buy into a series until it's complete. Actually, I kind of HATE series works, because they are quite often seat-of-the-pants situations where the author really has no idea where it's all going, and has no real plan for sticking the landing. Also quite often they are far, far longer than is justified. I have no issues with long works, but we must be honest and admit that LOTS of series works in genre are just plain FAT and needed to be seriously edited down. But that doesn't happen, because it means they can sell more books.
  - falcolas 5y ago
    > Actually, I kind of HATE series works, because they are quite often seat-of-the-pants situations where the author really has no idea where it's all going Often, authors even start a series as a number of stand-alone books with clearly bounded character-and-plot development (think Star Trek), and then later morph it into an overarching-story-plot style series. See: Dresden Files, Kate Daniels, etc.
jmyeet 5y ago
After producing 3 of the finest fantasy books I've ever read, GRRM has produced 2 books in 20 years that are mediocre at best and filled with fluff that really should've been edited out. And I have a theory about this. Some writers will write and see where the story takes them. Others (like GRRM) will have a plan. Having a plan gives structure and a destination. It's good. Where it can go bad is the characters can change to where your destination no longer makes sense. Take How I Met Your Mother as a perfect example of this. The (terrible) ending was always the plan but audiences hated it. In part because they loved Cristin Millotti (unexpected) but also because Robin had changed. I believe the delay in finishing the series stems from this: GRRM doesn't know how to get to the ending he originally planned. A popular theory in fan circles is the Meereenese Knot [1]. Personaly I think it's a more fundamental problem than just one plot point. I mean the two great hacks (DnD) rushed to end the show in one of the worst received finales of all time. I'm not sure HBO understands just how much damage these two did because not only have people moved on from GoT but the various promnects set in that universe are probably doomed to failure because literally nobody cares anymore. It's the equivalent of killing the entire MCU with one show. It's that bad. The second trap GRRM has fallen into is another common one with writers: he now doesn't know what to leave out. The original plans was the first 3 books then a long gap and a second trilogy. But then he thought the story of Stannis and Jon Snow needed to be told (it didn't). And other such storylines crept in where these could've been flashbacks or summaries.. His early writing style was fantastic for this. A character's arc would skip ahead to something significant and then layer what's happening with what happened in the gap. It was engaging and concise. So does GRRM "owe" us this story? Probably not. Do I care anymore? Not really. I would actually be shocked at this point if GRRM finishes the series at all (Robert Jordan anyone?). If he does, I'd target 2035 at the earliest for 2 more books. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2pp2m8/spoilers_all_an_analysis_exploration_of_grrms/ https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2pp2m8/spoilers_all...
- the_af 5y ago
  > he now doesn't know what to leave out This is crucial for me and a major source of annoyance. In Dance he is still introducing new characters and plotlines -- some of which he introduces and later resolves to nothing, like Quentyn [1], leaving one to wonder why he felt the need at all -- some even major characters like yet another contender to the throne, yet he fails to advanced in any important way many of the early plotlines he's left hanging since forever. Why? Why introduce new plotlines and characters instead of moving the existing ones to a satisfying resolution? Does he not have editors and friends who tell him "hey George, what's the point of Quentyn at all? And what's with the blue-haired boy, is he really necessary?" [1] it's been a long while since I read Dragons and I forgot about the quirky name spellings. Quentin? Quentyn? Kwenteen? PS: now that I write this, I realized there's another famous person named George who could have benefited from people telling him to cut down the crap :D
tialaramex 5y ago
Neil should of course know, since over 30 years ago he wrote an outline for a three arc Miracleman comic book, wrote only one of those three arcs and then legal quagmire ensured that nothing more happened. Even when Disney's attack lawyers (for Marvel) nailed down all the rights to actually publish Miracleman again in the 2010s somehow nothing further got published, Marvel re-published everything from Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman, up until the end of the Golden Age (the first of Gaiman's three arcs) but when the first new book was scheduled (the Silver Age) it simply never materialised, at first it was "delayed" and then all mention was simply deleted. In 2022 yet again supposedly Marvel are "definitely" going to publish this book, and well, do you see it? No. Neil has other things to be doing, probably more interesting to him and certainly more lucrative than some dusty old comic book franchise.
reddog 5y ago
Nonsense. I don't expect a storyteller to be my bitch but I do expect them to finish the story they started telling 5 novels ago. After all, I've invested at least 150 never-to-be-relived hours of my life in reading his story with the expectation it would eventually come to a conclusion. Not finishing a story is a monumental betrayal of trust by the storyteller. And there is a contract between storyteller and listner that is as old as time and we all feel it in our bones. Try telling a bedtime story to a 4 year old about the 3 little pigs and just stop at the second pig, walk away and see what happens.
- ponow 5y ago
  Because kids want things does not mean that they are owed them. That's the difference. "I want it now!" by Veruca Salt is not reasonable way to interact with artists.
  - emerged 5y ago
    It boggles my mind people feel entitled to other peoples future actions based on some feeling they have about previous actions. Went through this when I lost interest in an old open source project I had created. The community hated/hates me because I didn’t continue slave laboring for them indefinitely.
  - horsawlarway 5y ago
    They only want the things he's literally promised them. I have no beef with an author who takes 20 years to finish a series. I do have a problem with an author consistently making grandiose promises about how much he's working on the series, and how much content he has, and how his fans should be so grateful for the effort he's putting in. Then turns around and bitches incessantly about how his fans DARE to remind him he made those promises. Basically - I would be fine with GRRM if he would shut the fuck up. But he's not in it for writing the books anymore, he's in it for the attention.
- willis936 5y ago
  Imagine sitting around a campfire being told a story. Everyone is loving it and throws a few coins at the storyteller. The storyteller then gets up near the climax of the story and says "thanks for the money, I'm going to stop telling stories and enjoy this money until I die". Everyone feels betrayed. The one person who sees clearly claims the storyteller is not the audience's bitch. Which sentence sticks out?
openfuture 5y ago
Wow this thread seriously sucks. So much hate. People! wake up! Reading is awesome? if you get emotionally invested and then never get a satisfying ending (or any ending at all) then you just learned a valuable life lesson. Now get over it and read another book! :) It's amazing that you can get such strong feelings, as you grow older this may not be the case anymore so don't take your passion for granted.
the_af 5y ago
I agree with Neil Gaiman. GRRM doesn't owe anyone anything. Some in the fandom are particularly obnoxious, like when they warned him "not to pull a 'Robert Jordan'" (i.e. dying before completing the saga). George was right to lash out at them. That said... I think sagas like A Song of Ice and Fire are not exactly the kind of standalone literature were it's reasonable to pay for the book you're reading, and anything else is an extra. They are more like a TV show, even if HBO's didn't exist. We accept that fans protest the cancellation or bad endings of shows they love, and ASoIaF is very much a TV show in book form. So GRRM doesn't owe fans anything. But it's also reasonable for fans to be upset and vocal about the lack of progress of this TV-show-in-book-form saga. Also: I might be a minority that enjoys the journey more than the destination, so I enjoy reading about these noble houses, their family mottos, their vendettas, but even then in a work like this they are all in service of a satisfying payoff. This isn't an experimental "high literature" set of novels. Not providing this payoff would be like Agatha Christie never revealing "whodunnit" in one of her mystery novels.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  > So GRRM doesn't owe fans anything. I would say sticking to your word matters, and he is consistently unable to do so. He is very excited about all the attention his public promises get, and then is very condescending about any sort of reminder (years later) that he made those promises. I personally don't think he owes anyone content, but I also find the man incredibly distasteful. Don't make promises you know damn well you won't keep. Especially don't make those promises because you delight in the attention and fawning fans, and then turn around and act like those fans are utter monsters for, ya know, maybe expecting you to keep your promises.
  - the_af 5y ago
    Where did he call or consider his fans "monsters"? He specifically lashed out against some very rude fans who made an offensive mention of Robert Jordan's death, a personal friend of GRRM. I 100% support him on this. Fandom can be very toxic. As for the rest: I don't think GRRM is trying to mislead anyone on purpose. I honestly think he's lost the energy to focus on ASoIaF and cannot find a way to solve this conundrum and finish the damn thing. I think he would if he could. If he's deceiving anyone, it's himself. Writing literature isn't like writing CRUD code, is not just a matter of sitting your ass down and typing words. Sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn't. I think he's lost his inspiration and cannot get it back, but I don't buy he's being cynical about this or purposefully cheating his fans.
praptak 5y ago
Just don't start buying series until the last part is out. Or maybe at least until the next part is out.
TMWNN 5y ago
No, no! Don't you know that every ASoIaF fan has, by the mere act of reading the extant books, obtained a mortgage on Martin's future writing? That he owes each and every one of us the rest of the books in the series ASAP, and that if he for whatever reason is unable to deliver, he will majorly owe us (even from beyond the grave) for the YEARS we have WASTED and the DOZENS OF DOLLARS we have spent on the older books, waiting in vain?!? ... The above is a zero-exaggeration paraphrasing of *many* so-called ASoIaF fans' ridiculously entitled views of Martin's work (including elsewhere in this discussion). People express this anger in different ways. Some do what I mention above. Some take the more passive-aggressive route of constantly posting about how Martin needs to lose weight for his health, or "please stop watching football and start writing", or "please stop going to conventions and start writing",[1] or "hope he finishes the books before dying". As if such creeps are actually concerned about Martin's well-being; if they could snap their fingers and have the entire series completed tomorrow at the cost of its author dropping dead at once, I know what 90% of them would choose. ASoIaF is a brilliant series, one of the masterpieces of the past 20 years. If Martin were to die tomorrow I'd sympathize with his wife, be glad I had the chance to read five remarkable books and watch the TV series and, yes, be sad to not read the end of the series. I'd not, however, be angry at him/God/the universe for dying before giving us more. They're great novels, but at the end of the day they're just that, novels. [1] Yes, there are people who have posted both of these things on Martin's Livejournal site
SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
For people who are fans of epic fantasy and are waiting decades for completed series: please read current authors who are actually producing and have a known track record of finishing what they start. NK Jemisin has finished multiple series redefining the genre. Mercedes Lackey is a staple. Fonda Lee just finished the Green Bone Saga and it’s great. Robert Jackson Bennett writes fantasy that has the same complex magic systems and political intrigue but actively subverts expectations and really brings the humanity to it with compelling characters… and he has a complete trilogy! These people deserve more attention, more investment, and more fans.
Traster 5y ago
Authors don't owe their fans a next installment in the series. They do however, owe the fans a little bit of honesty. In 2015 George RR Martin said he's going to skip comic-con in 2015 because he needs to focus on finish off winds of winter, but hey! If he gets it done before hand, he'll come to comic-con. That was 6 years after this blogpost complaining that people have unreasonable expectations that George RR Martin will deliver winds of winter. The problem isn't that Martin hasn't delivered the book, it's that he has a massive problem communicating with his fans about whether he's going to deliver the book. He's repeatedly done this, and people question why the fans are angry. They're angry because he's jerking them around. It's not even unreasonable for him to make promises to the fans and then fail to deliver. But there comes a point where it's reasonable for people to be angry at him for continuing to make predictions/statements about the book when he's got such a well-established pattern of breaking those promises. It's reasonable for Charlie Brown to get angry when Lucy pulls the football out of the way at the last minute - it's not because she owed him the football, it's that she lied to him, repeatedly.
999900000999 5y ago
>It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren't coming out on time. I see this a lot with hip hop, someone like Andre 3000 has never actually put out an album. Still regarded as one of the best rappers of all time, E-40, and most other Bay area rappers will put out multiple releases in a single year. E-40 tends to not get quite as much praise, but I personally think he's a better artist since he can put out content. But I don't spend all day tweeting at Andre 3000 that he needs to give me five albums. Lauryn Hill is looking like she's never going to finish another album in her life, it's okay. She left her mark. Likewise, Game of thrones has already done what it was going to do for this culture. I remember going to a watch party for the last episode, and it was great. This was pre-COVID, and everyone was very social, it felt like a community. Even though we were just paying a bar to let us sit and watch, we talked. So I commend you George RR Martin, you brought people together , you connected people. If he never writes another page, that adds a bit of mystique to it all. It's just an unfinished story
foogazi 5y ago
Started reading “A Game of Thrones” in 2011 I wish I could read it again for the first time

85 points by tta 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Sometimes I wonder, if I knew that the series would not be finished would I have started it, and would reading something else have been a better use of my time. I usually come to the conclusion that despite GRRM's world being incomplete, it's still far better than most of the work in the fantasy genre.

jrimbault 5y ago

title: Entitlement issues... [2009]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sdoering 5y ago

> I am behind on work because American Airlines doesn't have proper power points in International first class like, er, all the other airlines I've flown on in the last few years. > (They offered to sell me an adapter for $150 to plug in the battery-dead computer, and I probably should have said yes to keep working, but was so outraged, and had decided not to fly American in future, so it would never have been used again, and said no.) Regardless of the "real" point of the article I was totally irritated by that. How would any company rationalize behavior like this? Do "rich" people flying first class really normally just shell out $150 instead of deciding (like Gaiman did) to just not fly them again? Are $150 worth the lost business?

barney54 5y ago
Not anymore. I’ve flown business a few times in American and other airlines over the past 5 years and they all had good power ports.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dwighttk 5y ago
Lots of people on expense accounts who don’t think about it maybe.
mytailorisrich 5y ago
We've all been pissed off by an airline and vowed not to fly with them again... Until we planned another trip and that airline was the cheapest and/or most convenient. Airlines know this. There isn't a huge choice for consumers.
- nojonestownpls 5y ago
  The invisible hand of free market at work.
- gruturo 5y ago
  Oh I don't know about that... I swore off Ryanair after one bad experience too many, around 2013, and have managed to avoid them ever since. I've intentionally bought more expensive tickets from Lufthansa and Swissair (iirc) where Ryanair would have been cheaper - and it was my own money, not business travel where I could claim the expense back. I don't see myself ever using them again - barring hypothetical scenarios where I desperately needed to go somewhere and they were only airline flying there. And they lost more than 1 person's business - I've gladly "upgraded" my travel companions on 3 occasions so far, paying either their full ticket or price difference, so we could fly together on anything-but-ryanair. I keep reading (possibly sensationalized) news pieces about their latest cost saving measures like banning employees from charging their phones at work, and my disgust reinforces my intention to never have anything to do with them.
  - ubermonkey 5y ago
    I have the sense that being a "captive" customer to a single carrier, or two carriers at most, is a predominately American problem. Here in Houston -- a huge city in the middle of the country -- it is far, far easier to fly United than any other carrier for any long-haul route. Southwest is an option for close US locations, and that's great, but United is what you're using to go to either coast. Sure, there ARE other airlines here. There are LOTS of them. But if you want to go to the UK on something other than United, you better be going to wherever that other carrier goes, because you won't have a lot of options. (EG, Singapore flies direct to Manchester, but that's it. Emirates flies to Dubai nonstop every day, but has no other legs in Houston.) In smaller places, the choices are often starker.
tsimionescu 5y ago
I think it's quite common. Once saw a proeminent warning in a five star hotel that cautioned Wi-Fi is only free for the first month of your stay. So, if you're spending more than a month in that five star hotel, you'd better start paying for Wi-Fi as well.
tpmx 5y ago
Ah, that horrid EmPower 15V DC thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmPower_(aircraft_power_adapter)#Original_15-Volt_EmPower_Connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmPower_(aircraft_power_adapte...
panzagl 5y ago
American Airlines is not your bitch.
- User23 5y ago
  It's true, there's nothing about laptop chargers in the American Airlines Contract of Carriage[1], so clearly he should see to his own entitlement issues for expecting that courtesy. [1] https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/conditions-of-carriage.jsp https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/support/conditions-...

imgabe 5y ago

I remember when this came out. I agree with the sentiment, but I think that as an audience you have every right to feel cheated that someone told you half a story and then never finished it. Sure, they didn't owe it to you, but it's still a shitty thing to do. Like if a friend offered to help you move and then never showed up. Hey, I'm not your bitch! They might say. No, but they said they'd do something and then they didn't do it, so from now on people are going to take that into consideration and rightly consider them a bullshitter who doesn't follow through. I've pretty much written off any hope of ever reading the rest of A Song of Ice and Fire and also The Kingkiller Chronicles (by a different, also wildly unreliable author, what is it with these guys). Yeah, they're not my bitch. They don't owe me anything, it just sucks that they turned out to be bullshitters.

major505 5y ago
Specially since the fact that George R. Martin can now enjoy his life, and not work is thanks to this same audience. Those who treat their audience like shit, is due to lost everything.
- Veen 5y ago
  His readers (not audience) paid to buy the books he had written. They didn't pay him to write books in the future. I really don't understand this bizarre "fandom" idea that a writer owes his readers something beyond what they have paid for. It's a polite fiction that some writers unfortunately indulge, but the fact that you've paid a small amount of money to read a book doesn't impose any future obligation on its author. His publishers might have cause to be annoyed if they have a contract for more books, but the readers, however disappointed, don't have a moral right to dictate a writer's future labour. And that's what writing novels is—it's work for money, like programming or plumbing, not some mystical calling or vocation.
  - hoseja 5y ago
    They bought the books with the illusion they might someday read the ending. A lot of them wouldn't have bought the books if they knew there will never be a conclusion.

Octoth0rpe 5y ago

There's a review for Rothfuss's perpetually forthcoming Doors of Stone that makes the same point that is worth reading: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2105865794 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2105865794

jackdh 5y ago
It's quite funny that in the decade since his own comment on the page: > I'd love to see the five-star version of the book, because right now, the one I'm toiling away at is about a three an a half-in my opinion The rating have dropped so far it's almost at a 3.5 rating.

jstx1 5y ago

It's normal for people to have failings like procrastination, being unproductive and not being able to finish something they started. GRRM's failings just happen to be very public because of his earlier success. He's never finishing those books and I think that at this point many of the fans have moved on.

devoutsalsa 5y ago
I never procrastin... I'll finish this comment later.

gorjusborg 5y ago

I really can't understand how someone can appreciate a writer's work so much that they hate them for not producing more. That's weird.

mattmanser 5y ago
Because it's frustrating to not get an ending, and that frustration can turn into nastier emotions.
tehbeard 5y ago
First, you're dealing with humans, rationality is a distant consideration in dealing with emotions. Second, There's an implicit promise that stories have a structure, and that structure includes an ending, where there's payoff and/or setting other things up for a longer story. That lack of ending leaves built up tension that, well, hasn't been relieved. With that tension, see my first point. Thirdly, I'd lay the vitriol that's brewed purely at the feet of David & Daniel for royally fucking up the TV show adaptation's final seasons. The catharsis of the "TV ending" could have given GRRM a good few more years to work on the book ending, as some would have put down the story with the end of the show, and others might have debated how the divergence between book/tv before would affect the book ending. Instead, we got a train wreck, and snapping back to the reality that GRRM is getting old, and the only "canon" ending currently is.... not that good. Edit: I'm not endorsing shitty behaviour from fans, I've seen it cause plenty of issues over the years, just trying to offer some perspective as to why.
- panzagl 5y ago
  It also doesn't help that the last 2 books have not been good.
gruturo 5y ago
It is weird. But on the other hand he created a series, not isolated books, and the story is quite unfinished. I don't think anyone would be mad at him if he finished the series but then didn't produce anything else after that. The hatred is still excessive, but imagine watching the first 2 Lord of the Rings movies and then discovering the 3rd one won't ever come out (not a perfect fit, given that the books were all finished long ago, but...)

randomthought12 5y ago

At this point, I am not sure we will get the end of the story. I am almost glad that HBO killed my love for GoT. I totally understand that George R.R. Martin is not our bitch but when someone creates a book series that lots of people come to love, you feel cheated when you learn about all the side projects when the main project doesn't seem to evolve. Anyway, I read the 5 books, absolutely loved them. I think I'll just stop caring and try to remember these 5 amazing books as the end of the story.

b112 5y ago
Plot twist! GRR, fiscally empowered, has his entire body frozen upon death. Years later you learn, now as an old man, that he has been decanted, re-youthed (something you cannot afford), and is now almost done the next book. The entire series in fact! Yet now you are the one who is 73, he young, and you may not live to see his new novels! Fate. Always games by mistress Fate.
- imgabe 5y ago
  It turns out that it was taking so long because he wanted to publish all the remaining books at the same time! Just as they're released, nuclear war breaks out. Miraculously, you survive! You find all the books in the ruins of a Barnes and Noble. As you sit down to finally read them, you break your glasses...
  - b112 5y ago
    "But there was time now!" Classic, hah.

matsemann 5y ago

Brandon Sanderson last week posted a video [0] where he said he would come clean. Spoiler: It was him having written 4 new books during lockdown in addition to those promised. The Kickstarter [1] for those books is now the biggest ever. He is a machine, also gets a lot of goodwill from the way he interact with fans. He's the one author where I read books before the series is finished, because I feel I can trust him. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a-k6eaT-jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a-k6eaT-jQ [1]: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dragonsteel/surprise-four-secret-novels-by-brandon-sanderson?ref=bva2b9 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dragonsteel/surprise-fo...

OtomotO 5y ago
Yup, he is a machine and I love some of his works, while others I find mediocre at best. It's the same as with all the other "machines" out there, really. Some very good books, many mediocre, some even outright bad. All my subjective taste of course. But you're right, one can trust him that he finishes and that has its merits too.
- mabub24 5y ago
  I agree. The quality of his writing and output is generally on par with someone like Clive Cussler, or Joyce Carol Oates. The method is pretty simple: write a lot and see what sticks. Updike was probably the best writer in the modern era to have used that method. Sanderson generally has some interesting concepts but his characters are pretty simplistic, and he puts an extreme emphasis on "systematic worldbuilding," to the detriment of their plot. His style is really starting to show its limits in the Stormlight books, which are very long, which have some neat scenes, but which are also in incredible need of an editor.
999900000999 5y ago
Thank you. If I have time I plan to read at least one of his books. I've been wasting alot of time on YouTube, and frankly here. Books remove that option, you need to focus on them

OtomotO 5y ago

Well, even if he never finishes, the red wedding still a better love story than twilight, I guess ;) As an absolute fan of ASoIaF, The Kingkiller Chronicles and The Gentleman Bastard I can say: I am waiting for Winds of Winter for over 10 years now... I would be full of joy if it really came out, but I also see that George doesn't owe me anything. I paid the existing books, knowing the series wasn't finished and still I ate right through them. It's a bit like with open source, really. Some people expect you to deliver again and again if they donate (!) to your work.

foogazi 5y ago
I felt so smart by starting GoT books when the TV series started in 2011 - Dance of Dragons came out and I thought I had enough material to hold me for the next 4-5 years

jl6 5y ago

The HBO show was amazing, for at least 4 seasons and maybe as many as 6 seasons. My working assumption is that the fan reaction to the HBO ending has sent GRRM back to the drawing board on many storylines and thus he will require more time to finish. He’s 73… fingers crossed.

dang 5y ago

Related: Entitlement issues (2009) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8136670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8136670 - Aug 2014 (151 comments)

mtnygard 5y ago

Past purchases don't buy future books, true. George is a free human not a slave to our desire for _content_, also true. But I also understand fan frustration. When Gaiman wrote that, "A Game of Thrones" was already 15 years in the past. "A Dance With Dragons" had been promised for 2005-ish and was still 2 years in the future. Since "GRRM is not your bitch", George has published 10 books, of which one advanced the core story of ASoIaF. Meanwhile, on his not-a-blog, George's infrequent posts usual refer to how busy he is while simultaneously telling fans they just need to be patient. It's been 11 years since the last book in the main ASoIaF story line. _26 years_ after reading "A Game of Thrones" I'm not even mad. I've just given up. I'll just put this in the same category as Gordon R. Dickson's Dorsai saga or Coleridge's Kubla Khan: brilliant but never-to-be-finished.

horsawlarway 5y ago
I mean - I guess it depends on how we define "bitch". I agree he's a free human who can make his own choices - but he made a few choices that I find distasteful - Primarily: He lies through his fucking teeth. I read the first three books of his series in middle school - I was 13 at the time. I VIVIDLY remember how he promised not only that book four was coming soon, but that the problem was that it was so much content his editor was making him break it into two books. Then five years passed. Not a peep. No updates, no content. He happily wrote a poem anthology and a quartet of short stories in between - but not a peep on where his two books of content were. Finally - as I entered college, he got around to publishing book four. And that was the last book I read from him. Not only was it not the quality of the first three, it left out literally half of the cast of characters. Now - he's doing it again with the end of the series: He's very gung-ho to get good publicity by talking shit about how he'll focus on the series, and how much content he has, and how these books are the shining rainbows of everything his fans want. Then he can't handle even small amounts of flak - like: You PROMISED this was coming, where is it? Basically - I think he's an utter bitch. Not because I think I can boss him around (I don't) but because he acts like a little bitch - he makes promises he knows he won't keep for the attention and fawning of his fans.

fergal_reid 5y ago

I don't agree with Gaiman here. His basic argument is that the contract is you paid $10 for each book you got, so the author doesn't owe you the next book. I disagree with this. First off, the fact that the fans are so upset is evidence that this wasn't _their_ understanding of the contract. The thing is, they didn't just spend $10. They spent time getting invested in the story. This emotional investment is left unfulfilled if they don't get the implicitly promised ending. Now, let's turn this around. Let's say fans do decide that their $10 strictly comes with no expectation of the next book coming. Well then many fans wouldn't have bought the first books until the whole series is finished. It would likely become uneconomical to write long fantasy series. Writers like Martin would suffer. It's easy for Martin or whoever to drop the ball on the implicit contract now, after becoming rich; but if this contract hadn't existed, authors like Martin would probably have desired to create it explicitly. If you believe that, then Gaiman's argument doesn't hold up. And so not finishing a promised series is taking from that trust commons. Of course, sometimes humans _can't_ finish something, and readers should accept that risk. The authors shouldn't be harassed. But wanting them to follow through is not the same as thinking "they're your bitch".

ubermonkey 5y ago
"Well then many fans wouldn't have bought the first books until the whole series is finished. It would likely become uneconomical to write long fantasy series. Writers like Martin would suffer." This is me. I don't buy into a series until it's complete. Actually, I kind of HATE series works, because they are quite often seat-of-the-pants situations where the author really has no idea where it's all going, and has no real plan for sticking the landing. Also quite often they are far, far longer than is justified. I have no issues with long works, but we must be honest and admit that LOTS of series works in genre are just plain FAT and needed to be seriously edited down. But that doesn't happen, because it means they can sell more books.
- falcolas 5y ago
  > Actually, I kind of HATE series works, because they are quite often seat-of-the-pants situations where the author really has no idea where it's all going Often, authors even start a series as a number of stand-alone books with clearly bounded character-and-plot development (think Star Trek), and then later morph it into an overarching-story-plot style series. See: Dresden Files, Kate Daniels, etc.

jmyeet 5y ago

After producing 3 of the finest fantasy books I've ever read, GRRM has produced 2 books in 20 years that are mediocre at best and filled with fluff that really should've been edited out. And I have a theory about this. Some writers will write and see where the story takes them. Others (like GRRM) will have a plan. Having a plan gives structure and a destination. It's good. Where it can go bad is the characters can change to where your destination no longer makes sense. Take How I Met Your Mother as a perfect example of this. The (terrible) ending was always the plan but audiences hated it. In part because they loved Cristin Millotti (unexpected) but also because Robin had changed. I believe the delay in finishing the series stems from this: GRRM doesn't know how to get to the ending he originally planned. A popular theory in fan circles is the Meereenese Knot [1]. Personaly I think it's a more fundamental problem than just one plot point. I mean the two great hacks (DnD) rushed to end the show in one of the worst received finales of all time. I'm not sure HBO understands just how much damage these two did because not only have people moved on from GoT but the various promnects set in that universe are probably doomed to failure because literally nobody cares anymore. It's the equivalent of killing the entire MCU with one show. It's that bad. The second trap GRRM has fallen into is another common one with writers: he now doesn't know what to leave out. The original plans was the first 3 books then a long gap and a second trilogy. But then he thought the story of Stannis and Jon Snow needed to be told (it didn't). And other such storylines crept in where these could've been flashbacks or summaries.. His early writing style was fantastic for this. A character's arc would skip ahead to something significant and then layer what's happening with what happened in the gap. It was engaging and concise. So does GRRM "owe" us this story? Probably not. Do I care anymore? Not really. I would actually be shocked at this point if GRRM finishes the series at all (Robert Jordan anyone?). If he does, I'd target 2035 at the earliest for 2 more books. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2pp2m8/spoilers_all_an_analysis_exploration_of_grrms/ https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2pp2m8/spoilers_all...

the_af 5y ago
> he now doesn't know what to leave out This is crucial for me and a major source of annoyance. In Dance he is still introducing new characters and plotlines -- some of which he introduces and later resolves to nothing, like Quentyn [1], leaving one to wonder why he felt the need at all -- some even major characters like yet another contender to the throne, yet he fails to advanced in any important way many of the early plotlines he's left hanging since forever. Why? Why introduce new plotlines and characters instead of moving the existing ones to a satisfying resolution? Does he not have editors and friends who tell him "hey George, what's the point of Quentyn at all? And what's with the blue-haired boy, is he really necessary?" [1] it's been a long while since I read Dragons and I forgot about the quirky name spellings. Quentin? Quentyn? Kwenteen? PS: now that I write this, I realized there's another famous person named George who could have benefited from people telling him to cut down the crap :D

tialaramex 5y ago

Neil should of course know, since over 30 years ago he wrote an outline for a three arc Miracleman comic book, wrote only one of those three arcs and then legal quagmire ensured that nothing more happened. Even when Disney's attack lawyers (for Marvel) nailed down all the rights to actually publish Miracleman again in the 2010s somehow nothing further got published, Marvel re-published everything from Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman, up until the end of the Golden Age (the first of Gaiman's three arcs) but when the first new book was scheduled (the Silver Age) it simply never materialised, at first it was "delayed" and then all mention was simply deleted. In 2022 yet again supposedly Marvel are "definitely" going to publish this book, and well, do you see it? No. Neil has other things to be doing, probably more interesting to him and certainly more lucrative than some dusty old comic book franchise.

reddog 5y ago

Nonsense. I don't expect a storyteller to be my bitch but I do expect them to finish the story they started telling 5 novels ago. After all, I've invested at least 150 never-to-be-relived hours of my life in reading his story with the expectation it would eventually come to a conclusion. Not finishing a story is a monumental betrayal of trust by the storyteller. And there is a contract between storyteller and listner that is as old as time and we all feel it in our bones. Try telling a bedtime story to a 4 year old about the 3 little pigs and just stop at the second pig, walk away and see what happens.

ponow 5y ago
Because kids want things does not mean that they are owed them. That's the difference. "I want it now!" by Veruca Salt is not reasonable way to interact with artists.
- emerged 5y ago
  It boggles my mind people feel entitled to other peoples future actions based on some feeling they have about previous actions. Went through this when I lost interest in an old open source project I had created. The community hated/hates me because I didn’t continue slave laboring for them indefinitely.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  They only want the things he's literally promised them. I have no beef with an author who takes 20 years to finish a series. I do have a problem with an author consistently making grandiose promises about how much he's working on the series, and how much content he has, and how his fans should be so grateful for the effort he's putting in. Then turns around and bitches incessantly about how his fans DARE to remind him he made those promises. Basically - I would be fine with GRRM if he would shut the fuck up. But he's not in it for writing the books anymore, he's in it for the attention.
willis936 5y ago
Imagine sitting around a campfire being told a story. Everyone is loving it and throws a few coins at the storyteller. The storyteller then gets up near the climax of the story and says "thanks for the money, I'm going to stop telling stories and enjoy this money until I die". Everyone feels betrayed. The one person who sees clearly claims the storyteller is not the audience's bitch. Which sentence sticks out?

openfuture 5y ago

Wow this thread seriously sucks. So much hate. People! wake up! Reading is awesome? if you get emotionally invested and then never get a satisfying ending (or any ending at all) then you just learned a valuable life lesson. Now get over it and read another book! :) It's amazing that you can get such strong feelings, as you grow older this may not be the case anymore so don't take your passion for granted.

the_af 5y ago

I agree with Neil Gaiman. GRRM doesn't owe anyone anything. Some in the fandom are particularly obnoxious, like when they warned him "not to pull a 'Robert Jordan'" (i.e. dying before completing the saga). George was right to lash out at them. That said... I think sagas like A Song of Ice and Fire are not exactly the kind of standalone literature were it's reasonable to pay for the book you're reading, and anything else is an extra. They are more like a TV show, even if HBO's didn't exist. We accept that fans protest the cancellation or bad endings of shows they love, and ASoIaF is very much a TV show in book form. So GRRM doesn't owe fans anything. But it's also reasonable for fans to be upset and vocal about the lack of progress of this TV-show-in-book-form saga. Also: I might be a minority that enjoys the journey more than the destination, so I enjoy reading about these noble houses, their family mottos, their vendettas, but even then in a work like this they are all in service of a satisfying payoff. This isn't an experimental "high literature" set of novels. Not providing this payoff would be like Agatha Christie never revealing "whodunnit" in one of her mystery novels.

horsawlarway 5y ago
> So GRRM doesn't owe fans anything. I would say sticking to your word matters, and he is consistently unable to do so. He is very excited about all the attention his public promises get, and then is very condescending about any sort of reminder (years later) that he made those promises. I personally don't think he owes anyone content, but I also find the man incredibly distasteful. Don't make promises you know damn well you won't keep. Especially don't make those promises because you delight in the attention and fawning fans, and then turn around and act like those fans are utter monsters for, ya know, maybe expecting you to keep your promises.
- the_af 5y ago
  Where did he call or consider his fans "monsters"? He specifically lashed out against some very rude fans who made an offensive mention of Robert Jordan's death, a personal friend of GRRM. I 100% support him on this. Fandom can be very toxic. As for the rest: I don't think GRRM is trying to mislead anyone on purpose. I honestly think he's lost the energy to focus on ASoIaF and cannot find a way to solve this conundrum and finish the damn thing. I think he would if he could. If he's deceiving anyone, it's himself. Writing literature isn't like writing CRUD code, is not just a matter of sitting your ass down and typing words. Sometimes that helps, sometimes it doesn't. I think he's lost his inspiration and cannot get it back, but I don't buy he's being cynical about this or purposefully cheating his fans.

praptak 5y ago

Just don't start buying series until the last part is out. Or maybe at least until the next part is out.

TMWNN 5y ago

No, no! Don't you know that every ASoIaF fan has, by the mere act of reading the extant books, obtained a mortgage on Martin's future writing? That he owes each and every one of us the rest of the books in the series ASAP, and that if he for whatever reason is unable to deliver, he will majorly owe us (even from beyond the grave) for the YEARS we have WASTED and the DOZENS OF DOLLARS we have spent on the older books, waiting in vain?!? ... The above is a zero-exaggeration paraphrasing of *many* so-called ASoIaF fans' ridiculously entitled views of Martin's work (including elsewhere in this discussion). People express this anger in different ways. Some do what I mention above. Some take the more passive-aggressive route of constantly posting about how Martin needs to lose weight for his health, or "please stop watching football and start writing", or "please stop going to conventions and start writing",[1] or "hope he finishes the books before dying". As if such creeps are actually concerned about Martin's well-being; if they could snap their fingers and have the entire series completed tomorrow at the cost of its author dropping dead at once, I know what 90% of them would choose. ASoIaF is a brilliant series, one of the masterpieces of the past 20 years. If Martin were to die tomorrow I'd sympathize with his wife, be glad I had the chance to read five remarkable books and watch the TV series and, yes, be sad to not read the end of the series. I'd not, however, be angry at him/God/the universe for dying before giving us more. They're great novels, but at the end of the day they're just that, novels. [1] Yes, there are people who have posted both of these things on Martin's Livejournal site

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago

For people who are fans of epic fantasy and are waiting decades for completed series: please read current authors who are actually producing and have a known track record of finishing what they start. NK Jemisin has finished multiple series redefining the genre. Mercedes Lackey is a staple. Fonda Lee just finished the Green Bone Saga and it’s great. Robert Jackson Bennett writes fantasy that has the same complex magic systems and political intrigue but actively subverts expectations and really brings the humanity to it with compelling characters… and he has a complete trilogy! These people deserve more attention, more investment, and more fans.

Traster 5y ago

Authors don't owe their fans a next installment in the series. They do however, owe the fans a little bit of honesty. In 2015 George RR Martin said he's going to skip comic-con in 2015 because he needs to focus on finish off winds of winter, but hey! If he gets it done before hand, he'll come to comic-con. That was 6 years after this blogpost complaining that people have unreasonable expectations that George RR Martin will deliver winds of winter. The problem isn't that Martin hasn't delivered the book, it's that he has a massive problem communicating with his fans about whether he's going to deliver the book. He's repeatedly done this, and people question why the fans are angry. They're angry because he's jerking them around. It's not even unreasonable for him to make promises to the fans and then fail to deliver. But there comes a point where it's reasonable for people to be angry at him for continuing to make predictions/statements about the book when he's got such a well-established pattern of breaking those promises. It's reasonable for Charlie Brown to get angry when Lucy pulls the football out of the way at the last minute - it's not because she owed him the football, it's that she lied to him, repeatedly.

999900000999 5y ago

>It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren't coming out on time. I see this a lot with hip hop, someone like Andre 3000 has never actually put out an album. Still regarded as one of the best rappers of all time, E-40, and most other Bay area rappers will put out multiple releases in a single year. E-40 tends to not get quite as much praise, but I personally think he's a better artist since he can put out content. But I don't spend all day tweeting at Andre 3000 that he needs to give me five albums. Lauryn Hill is looking like she's never going to finish another album in her life, it's okay. She left her mark. Likewise, Game of thrones has already done what it was going to do for this culture. I remember going to a watch party for the last episode, and it was great. This was pre-COVID, and everyone was very social, it felt like a community. Even though we were just paying a bar to let us sit and watch, we talked. So I commend you George RR Martin, you brought people together , you connected people. If he never writes another page, that adds a bit of mystique to it all. It's just an unfinished story

foogazi 5y ago

Started reading “A Game of Thrones” in 2011 I wish I could read it again for the first time